Wild Porter... or Oud Bruin?

Homebrew Talk - Beer, Wine, Mead, & Cider Brewing Discussion Forum

Help Support Homebrew Talk - Beer, Wine, Mead, & Cider Brewing Discussion Forum:

This site may earn a commission from merchant affiliate links, including eBay, Amazon, and others.

Yellow_Boots

Member
Joined
Sep 20, 2012
Messages
13
Reaction score
0
Location
Cleveland
I absolutely love sours... but I am still grasping how to make one myself. My wife and I both seek out Flanders Reds and the like all the time, so we wanted to figure out a good "house sour" to make over and over again. I thought of taking a little departure from the norm and try to put a mild twist on the traditional sour guidelines and base the recipe in the robust porter neighborhood, but I am wondering if my desire for a little originality is really just going to be an Oud Bruin (which is not a bad thing if it does!).

Here is my potential recipe:


OG: 1.061
FG: 1.015
IBU: 31
Color: 34L

8# Pale
1# Smoked
0.75# Chocolate
0.75# Caramel 120L
0.5# Special Roast
0.5# Extra Special

1oz Amarillo (10 min)
1oz Challenger (10 min)
1oz Challenger (5 min)
1oz Northern Brewer (5 min)

Wyeast 3278, no starter

A few questions:
1) What do you think of this amount of smoked malt with the wild flavors?
2) I am really unclear about IBUs and wild yeast/bugs--some recipes are under 10 for the lacto, some are 40+ without problems... how should I understand IBUs and wild fermentation activity, and what to look for without killing off all of the bacteria?
 
My first impulse is to try and tell you that this recipe looks like a train wreck, but maybe I'm just small minded and you are a genius. You should brew this.
 
That's a lot of smoked malt...
A little goes a long ways.
I would cut that to .25 or .50 lbs...
Igotsand
 
I've had a couple of sour beers that had some smoked malt, though not a particularly dark one. They were going for historical styles I believe, not bad. I think you'll be fine with 1lb if going with beechwood smoked (rauch) malt. Some of the others like the cherrywood and esp. peat are more agressive and I don't think would work very well in any amount.

If I was inclined to brew something like this I'd probably cut the chocolate back to 6-8 ounces, add another moderate-dark caramel malt (1/2lb c80 maybe) and maybe cut the ibu's to 25ish. Also, you might try pitching some JP dregs or something similar in addition.
It won't really be a robust porter but I think it could be tasty.
 
I appreciate the feedback. To TNGabe, I get that a lot! My wife says it more or less typifies my brewing style. I think the smoky sour idea is novel, and something I have yet to see someone else pull off, so I am willing to try it out and hope for the best. My greatest enjoyment in homebrewing has been to take what is accepted and proven and change those concepts just enough to make them spectacular and memorable. To WilliamMS' point, I love using Caramel 120 for its raisiny, dark fruit contribution, which I think only shines in sour ales, but I see your point with reducing and changing the dark malt contributions. Maybe I'll cook up some candi syrup nice and dark and toss that in, too. I'm not sure. I am guessing that most people gloss my Brewtoad account and think "wahaaaaaat?" but I'm all about that.
 
I have been wanting to brew a Flanders Red with cherry smoked malt for a while. I say go for it. If it doesn't turn out well it would still probably work great for cooking. Keep us updated.
 
I think the smoky sour idea is novel, and something I have yet to see someone else pull off, so I am willing to try it out and hope for the best.

I think just the opposite is true. Most beers throughout history would have been somewhat smokey and somewhat sour.
 
To WilliamMS' point, I love using Caramel 120 for its raisiny, dark fruit contribution, which I think only shines in sour ales, but I see your point with reducing and changing the dark malt contributions. Maybe I'll cook up some candi syrup nice and dark and toss that in, too.

I wasn't suggesting getting rid of the C120, I was suggesting some additional crystal. I suggested that because 1) you wanted something porter-like but chances are you're going to get more attenuation than you'd want in a porter (you also might consider a touch of oats for mouth feel) and 2) because the smoke will add a touch of astringency that a little extra sweetness will help balance.
I don't think I'd do the candi syrup because your attenuation is already going to be really high and the candi will just increase it. I'd think you'd want this beer left with a little body.
 
I wasn't suggesting getting rid of the C120, I was suggesting some additional crystal. I suggested that because 1) you wanted something porter-like but chances are you're going to get more attenuation than you'd want in a porter (you also might consider a touch of oats for mouth feel) and 2) because the smoke will add a touch of astringency that a little extra sweetness will help balance.
I don't think I'd do the candi syrup because your attenuation is already going to be really high and the candi will just increase it. I'd think you'd want this beer left with a little body.

I agree with several of these points and have a couple opinions of mine own! I have only done a couple of sours, but I have been doing a lot of reading and learned a few things from my brews. I should note that while I LOVE subtle, tart, Bretty, funky, dry sour beers, I'm not a fan of the super sour, punch you in the palate, vinegary brews. I think you need to restrain the IBUs. Bitter and sour are like 13 year olds at homecoming...they are awkward and just don't dance well together! I think the crystal could give a little residual sweetness that will balance the dry, tart nature of this beer. Adding sugar is not necessary when you are already going to have high attenuation, but the flavors will come through. I would definitely use some oats or flaked/torrified wheat to help mouthfeel. I would also go lower on the smoked malt-if you don't think it has enough smokey character you can bump up next time, but if it is too smokey it will overpower the other flavors. I try to experiment with only one or at most two variables at a time. If this is your first sour try to keep it simple and then tweak from there. Or say F it and brew whatever you like and let us know how it turns out!
 
I like this recipe. I personally wouldn't use special roast and extrea special, but what they hey? Why not? I think sour and smoke tend to compliment each other more than some would think. Take Gratzer for example: 100% smoked wheat with lacto. It is awesome. I say brew forward!
 
As far as my comment regarding smokey sours as novel, I only mean that I have searched for commercial examples for some time and the few I have seen are no distributed where I live, so I want to take a shot at it myself. I'll toss some oats in for body, vary the caramel malts for sweetness and still add the syrup for flavor. It should come out somewhere in the middle.

Regarding hops, I understand that sour+bitter is not a happy combo (save Bitter Monk from Anchorage, which seems to have been the only brew to pull it off), which is why I scaled down the IBUs as it was and kept all hop additions toward the end of the boil for primarily flavor and secondarily hop aroma (which I am aware will fade given the time it takes to sour). But I am still unclear as to the dynamics of IBUs and non-sacchyromyces. Is it just lacto that gets zapped by IBUs or does that carry over to pedio or even brett? I would assume that brett is relatively unaffected, whereas the true bugs would have a hard/impossible time coping.
 
It doesn't effect brett and, as for lacto, it varies depending on the strain but both should both be just fine with the hopping in this recipe. I've done a number of sour farmhouse ales with ibu's in the mid 20's that developed plenty of lactic sourness.
 
IBU: 31


1oz Amarillo (10 min)
1oz Challenger (10 min)
1oz Challenger (5 min)
1oz Northern Brewer (5 min)

I thought Bitter and Sour usually don't complement each other....

I would cut the IBUs a bit...

Than again if all your hops are really going in the last ten (10) minutes I think you have already got that under control...
 
Bitter and sour don't generally go together but it depends on how bitter, how sour, and how sweet. It's about balance and that's why I earlier suggested that he cut the ibu's to the mid 20's and up the crystal.
 
Check out the adambier thread that's going right now. It's got another recipe for a sour with smoked malt.
 
Smoked beers mellow quite it bit over time and I'd think over 12-18 month it would smooth out quite a bit. You could initially go light on the smoke malt and always blend a stander smoked porter back adding both smoke and sweet. Just a thought and I never tried it with a sour beer but it worked well with a barrel aged smoked porter. With bugs you might need to keg or flash pasteurizes the bottles.
 
I absolutely love sours... but I am still grasping how to make one myself. My wife and I both seek out Flanders Reds and the like all the time, so we wanted to figure out a good "house sour" to make over and over again. I thought of taking a little departure from the norm and try to put a mild twist on the traditional sour guidelines and base the recipe in the robust porter neighborhood, but I am wondering if my desire for a little originality is really just going to be an Oud Bruin (which is not a bad thing if it does!).

Here is my potential recipe:


OG: 1.061
FG: 1.015
IBU: 31
Color: 34L

8# Pale
1# Smoked
0.75# Chocolate
0.75# Caramel 120L
0.5# Special Roast
0.5# Extra Special

1oz Amarillo (10 min)
1oz Challenger (10 min)
1oz Challenger (5 min)
1oz Northern Brewer (5 min)

Wyeast 3278, no starter

A few questions:
1) What do you think of this amount of smoked malt with the wild flavors?
2) I am really unclear about IBUs and wild yeast/bugs--some recipes are under 10 for the lacto, some are 40+ without problems... how should I understand IBUs and wild fermentation activity, and what to look for without killing off all of the bacteria?

This reminds me of this thread: https://www.homebrewtalk.com/f163/uh-oh-bottled-1-030-wyeast-3787-a-381241/
 

Latest posts

Back
Top