Taking 5 gallon Corny keg from sea level to 7000 feet

Homebrew Talk - Beer, Wine, Mead, & Cider Brewing Discussion Forum

Help Support Homebrew Talk - Beer, Wine, Mead, & Cider Brewing Discussion Forum:

This site may earn a commission from merchant affiliate links, including eBay, Amazon, and others.

mrcromie

Member
Joined
Jun 27, 2011
Messages
7
Reaction score
0
Location
Ventura
Greetings to anyone willing to throw their $0.02 in...

I brew in Ventura, CA, pretty much at sea level. I'm taking an IPA to a wedding rehearsal dinner near Yosemite, around 7000 feet up. I've been reading through many posts but I'm having trouble answering my exact question, so here goes:

If I force carb as I normally do at sea level and then take the keg on a 5 hour road trip to 7000 feet, what precautions should I take to make sure the keg is ready to serve within 12 hours? Should I be venting the keg every 1000 feet on the way up?

Also, should I bring my 5# CO2 tank or use my little keg charger with the cartridges? We're traveling with a baby so space in the car is at a premium and I'd rather not take the tank if I don't have to.

Any advice would be greatly appreciated! Most people I've asked so far say "go ask Homebrew Talk". I'll be brewing tomorrow and kegging in about 2 weeks for the event on the 31st.

Thanks!!
 
You're under greater pressure at sea level than at altitude. The difference is minimal though. I'll be doing something similar in mid-Sept. I was planning on naturally carbing the keg and taking my bottle. Not sure that you really need to do anything out of the ordinary.
 
I wouldn't vent the keg since it'll be tricky to nail the right pressure without a regulator (I would also opt not to bring the co2 tank/regulator, but to just bring the cartridges---and a few extra at that in case there are mistakes :)). The difference in PSI will be around 3.5 I think, so you could always "meet halfway" and carb to about 1.75 PSI less than you would at sea level. It'll seem like the beer is slightly more carbonated than you're used to since co2 will come out of solution faster at that altitude, but I don't think it'll be a big beal.
 
You could actually vent the keg and monitor pressure at the same time with something like this, Gas Bleeder Valve You can keep the valve closed and see how the pressure changes. Bleed if necessary, might be a cool experiment.
 
I wouldn't vent the keg, but I would make an extra long party tap, 12' of 3/16th or so. Better a slower pour than foam. Take the charger and 2-3 extra bottles. From my experience, you shouldn't leave the charger on the keg. Keep it in your pocket and boost the keg yourself as needed.

The biggest problem will be the heat. It was "fry an egg on your car hood" hot when I was there a couple weeks ago and I suspect it's even hotter. Chill the keg as soon as you can after arriving.
 
Thank you all for the quick advice. If it was just taking homebrew to a party I wouldn't worry about it too much but since there will about 50 people (not all drinking beer but probably everyone will want a taste) I feel under pressure (sorry) to get this right. I don't really want to buy any new equipment since I'm already spending quite a bit on this trip. I'll be thinking it over whether to take the regulator/tank (so at least I know the pressure) or just the keg charger and eyeball it.

Thanks again for the responses, I'll let you all know what I do and how it turns out.
 
I wouldn't vent the keg, but I would make an extra long party tap, 12' of 3/16th or so. Better a slower pour than foam. Take the charger and 2-3 extra bottles. From my experience, you shouldn't leave the charger on the keg. Keep it in your pocket and boost the keg yourself as needed.

The biggest problem will be the heat. It was "fry an egg on your car hood" hot when I was there a couple weeks ago and I suspect it's even hotter. Chill the keg as soon as you can after arriving.

Good advice, thanks. I actually thought about an extra long hose, mine is about 8". easy enough to get more. The dinner will be at a cabin so I'll be sticking the keg in a trashcan filled with ice for about 5 hours before the festivities begin. I'm also bringing a bunch of 22oz bottles of a saison that I slightly undercarbed so I'll see which method works best. Hopefully the beer will have time to cool and settle, or I'll be pouring in into pitchers until the foam settles.
 
Here is a tidbit of information. The numbers below show altitude and the atmospheric pressure as you increase altitude. The pressure loss as you gain altitude can be seen as an increase of pressure in your keg. Basically it looks like you will gain approx 3.4 psi, which is minimal. Smarter folks than I may be able to clarify if any of this actually affects the volumes of CO2 in suspension. I think it would be minimal.

Altitude Air Pressure (psi)
Sea Level 14.7 psi
1,000 ft 14.2 psi
2,000 ft. 13.7 psi
3,000 ft. 13.2 psi
4,000 ft. 12.7 psi
5,000 ft. 12.2 psi
6,000 ft. 11.7 psi
7,000 ft. 11.3 psi
8,000 ft. 10.9 psi
9,000 ft. 10.5 psi
10,000 ft. 10.1 psi
 
Here is a tidbit of information. The numbers below show altitude and the atmospheric pressure as you increase altitude. The pressure loss as you gain altitude can be seen as an increase of pressure in your keg. Basically it looks like you will gain approx 3.4 psi, which is minimal. Smarter folks than I may be able to clarify if any of this actually affects the volumes of CO2 in suspension. I think it would be minimal.

PV=nRT

Volume remains the same. Temperature (well, assuming serving temp is the same as carbonation temp) will remain the same. n and R are constants. So pressure inside the keg will remain exactly the same regardless of outside pressure.

I think all standard keg/line balancing policies apply here. The only difference is that when the beer hits the glass, CO2 might come out of solution slightly faster due to a higher relative pressure difference than standard. But I don't think this will be important enough to change carbonation methods or pressures.
 
Sounds like my best bet is to grab an extra long hose for the picnic tap, allow the keg to sit, settle and chill for as long as I can before serving (best I can hope for is about 5 hours), and then pour with the expectation there will be a little more head than usual and make sure I leave space in the glass to account for it. I've read other posts about people taking kegs to the mountains and serving nothing but foam but it sounds like the shaking during transport was the culprit rather than the elevation.

The IPA is vigorously fermenting as I type, very happy I had the foresight to use a blowoff tube on this one. I opened one of the saisons I'm bringing last night and it was pretty nice so at yeast I'll have that to fall back on. ha!
 
Having lived at 11,000 feet I have a handle on how dramatically altitude can affect things. But in this case since the corney is its own pressurized system will the pressure differences outside effect the contents of the corney? I would personally be more worried about the shaking during transport.
 
PV=nRT

Volume remains the same. Temperature (well, assuming serving temp is the same as carbonation temp) will remain the same. n and R are constants. So pressure inside the keg will remain exactly the same regardless of outside pressure.

I think all standard keg/line balancing policies apply here. The only difference is that when the beer hits the glass, CO2 might come out of solution slightly faster due to a higher relative pressure difference than standard. But I don't think this will be important enough to change carbonation methods or pressures.

That equation is totally irrelevant. P.S.I (actually p.s.i.g) is a relative measurement. It will change with altitude as mentioned in previous posts.
 
Im trying to wrap my head around this....How exactly does the changing atmospheric pressure change the closed pressure system in the corney? Or is it about the pressure differential when serving?
 
Im trying to wrap my head around this....How exactly does the changing atmospheric pressure change the closed pressure system in the corney? Or is it about the pressure differential when serving?

It's because pressure is a relative reading. When you take a reading on a keg and find it's 25 psi, that means it's 25 psi above ambient pressure. Average atmospheric pressure is somewhere around 14.7 psi above vacuum.
 
It's because pressure is a relative reading. When you take a reading on a keg and find it's 25 psi, that means it's 25 psi above ambient pressure. Average atmospheric pressure is somewhere around 14.7 psi above vacuum.

How does that work? Your regulator is connected to a high-pressure closed system (tank) and a low-pressure closed-system (keg). Your pressure reading on the dial is based upon pressure against a spring and diaphragm, not against atmospheric pressure.

Ambient has nothing to do with it...
 
How does that work? Your regulator is connected to a high-pressure closed system (tank) and a low-pressure closed-system (keg). Your pressure reading on the dial is based upon pressure against a spring and diaphragm, not against atmospheric pressure.

Ambient has nothing to do with it...

Almost all pressure regulators control the gauge pressure (ex PSIG), not the absolute pressure (PSIA), even if the gauges aren't labelled as such. Otherwise you would need the regulated pressure to exceed ambient (~14 psi as mentioned above) before gas would start to flow.
 
How does that work? Your regulator is connected to a high-pressure closed system (tank) and a low-pressure closed-system (keg). Your pressure reading on the dial is based upon pressure against a spring and diaphragm, not against atmospheric pressure.

Ambient has nothing to do with it...

The spring and diaphragm are pushing against ambient pressure, though. The valve opens when the differential pressure is below the set-point.
 
That equation is totally irrelevant. P.S.I (actually p.s.i.g) is a relative measurement. It will change with altitude as mentioned in previous posts.

Well, there are a couple issues here: how the absolute pressure will change, how the relative pressure will change with altitude, and which one is most important? The amount of carbon dioxide in solution (that is volumes of CO2) is related to the absolute pressure of the CO2 in the keg, which we can't measure directly from the regulator (only relative pressure).

So, if you carb the beer at the correct pressure at your house, and disconnect the keg so it is now a closed system, the number of volumes of CO2 will stay the same in the beer regardless of outside pressure. If you go up in altitude and reconnect the regulator, the regulator will now say it is at a higher relative pressure since the ambient is lower and the absolute pressure stayed the same.

Since the way the beer tastes due to carbonation is based on the number of volumes of CO2 dissolved not the relative pressure, you want to keep that same absolute pressure. So, don't vent the keg as you go up in altitude!

In fact, two people at different altitudes would have to set their regulators slightly differently to get the same volumes of CO2 in their beer by getting the absolute pressure the same (higher altitude would have to set the regulator higher).

I know the charts don't take that into account, but the state of the beer is dependent on the absolute pressure, not the relative pressure. If you graph the volumes of CO2 versus pressure on a standard carbing chart (for a given temp), you'd see that at 0 PSI, you'd still have about 1.5 volumes of CO2, which is definitely much higher than equilibrium with air, since air is only about 0.04% CO2. There is an assumed atmospheric pressure in the charts, which may not match your situation perfectly.

So, bottom line, OP, don't vent the keg.
 
Greetings to anyone willing to throw their $0.02 in...

I brew in Ventura, CA, pretty much at sea level. I'm taking an IPA to a wedding rehearsal dinner near Yosemite, around 7000 feet up. I've been reading through many posts but I'm having trouble answering my exact question, so here goes:

If I force carb as I normally do at sea level and then take the keg on a 5 hour road trip to 7000 feet, what precautions should I take to make sure the keg is ready to serve within 12 hours? Should I be venting the keg every 1000 feet on the way up?

Also, should I bring my 5# CO2 tank or use my little keg charger with the cartridges? We're traveling with a baby so space in the car is at a premium and I'd rather not take the tank if I don't have to.

Any advice would be greatly appreciated! Most people I've asked so far say "go ask Homebrew Talk". I'll be brewing tomorrow and kegging in about 2 weeks for the event on the 31st.

Thanks!!

i brought a keg from sea level to big bear camping at around 6500 feet, no problems and beer was great! i also brought my 5lb C02 tank
 
Back
Top