1st All Grain Disaster

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redstache

redstache

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It's been over a month now since I began my first all-grain batch. I have several extract batches under my belt, so I felt comfortable adding a few steps to the brewing process.

First a little info about the setup. I decided to use a Northern Brewer all-grain kit (Innkeeper Ale). I had made the extract before, so I had something to compare it to. I also had NB crush the grains. I figured using a kit and having them crush it would eliminate some potential areas for errors. I used a 5 gal igloo cooler for a mashtun with a stainless braid for lautering. Unfortunately I did not have silicone tubing, so I used a vinyl tubing to transfer to the kettle.

During the brew day, the mash temp was a little high, but I was able to lower it easily to my target temp. Mash was uneventful. I did a careful vorlauf, and began draining. Did a batch sparge to hit my target volume. I used a hydrometer to monitor the wort, and everything was going to plan. The only thing I think I messed up on was the sparge water was hot (180 F). I believe this was what mucked the whole batch. Brew to fermentation to kegging went without a hitch. I was very careful with sanitization (starsan on everything).

I pulled my first draft after force carb, and it was awful. Somewhat astringent and definitely a strange medicinal quality (didn't use any chlorine based cleaners). It's undrinkable. I read that I could cold condition the beer for a month to reduce husky flavors due to high sparge temps. I gave it a try, and while it mellowed it is still undrinkable (and I am not that picky). I believe I'm just going to have to dump it.

What would you suggest for batch number 2? What could cause the off-flavors?
Can batch number 1 be saved or should I just dump it?
 
redstache said:
It's been over a month now since I began my first all-grain batch. I have several extract batches under my belt, so I felt comfortable adding a few steps to the brewing process.

First a little info about the setup. I decided to use a Northern Brewer all-grain kit (Innkeeper Ale). I had made the extract before, so I had something to compare it to. I also had NB crush the grains. I figured using a kit and having them crush it would eliminate some potential areas for errors. I used a 5 gal igloo cooler for a mashtun with a stainless braid for lautering. Unfortunately I did not have silicone tubing, so I used a vinyl tubing to transfer to the kettle.

During the brew day, the mash temp was a little high, but I was able to lower it easily to my target temp. Mash was uneventful. I did a careful vorlauf, and began draining. Did a batch sparge to hit my target volume. I used a hydrometer to monitor the wort, and everything was going to plan. The only thing I think I messed up on was the sparge water was hot (180 F). I believe this was what mucked the whole batch. Brew to fermentation to kegging went without a hitch. I was very careful with sanitization (starsan on everything).

I pulled my first draft after force carb, and it was awful. Somewhat astringent and definitely a strange medicinal quality (didn't use any chlorine based cleaners). It's undrinkable. I read that I could cold condition the beer for a month to reduce husky flavors due to high sparge temps. I gave it a try, and while it mellowed it is still undrinkable (and I am not that picky). I believe I'm just going to have to dump it.

What would you suggest for batch number 2? What could cause the off-flavors?
Can batch number 1 be saved or should I just dump it?
Click to expand...

As you said, the Vinyl tube could be a bit issue (not good for HOT wort)
but also, what was your mash temp and what was the overshoot?

what did you use to stir the mash, and did it aerate during that time?

180°F sparge water isn't bad, but it depends on Volume and what the grain temp reaches.

Also, Mash-tun doesn't need Star-san, just keep it clean. You'll boil it later.


-Mac
 
Also had a batch with medicinal flavour and always wondered what could have done this...could it be chlorine in the water?
 
The vinyl tube may have a small effect but it would be a hint and not so overpowering it is undrinkable. I use it all the time and don't taste it but I would expect faint if it were to happen.

You said you did a batch sparge and the water was 180 degrees. Was that the temperature going in or the temperature of your mash after adding it? I try to get mine up to 168 with 200 degree water and it never even gets there. If you used 180 degree water, I don't think that is your issue either.

My guess would maybe be your new cooler. Being new maybe it gave off some plastic type funk?

My son just brewed up Northern's Caribou Slobber, you might like that one.
 
Mac951 said:
As you said, the Vinyl tube could be a bit issue (not good for HOT wort)
but also, what was your mash temp and what was the overshoot?

what did you use to stir the mash, and did it aerate during that time?

180°F sparge water isn't bad, but it depends on Volume and what the grain temp reaches.

Also, Mash-tun doesn't need Star-san, just keep it clean. You'll boil it later.


-Mac
Click to expand...

I'm going to order some silicone for sure. The target temp was 154, and I hit 156. It wasn't huge, so I just cooled it with water. I used a plastic paddle to stir. I've used it on all my batches with no problems. I worked hard not to splash the mash, but I can't say it didn't aerate.

I was really thinking it was the sparge, so it's a relief to know it wasn't way off.

Oh and I didn't Star-san the mashtun. I was just trying to describe that I did sanitize everything but the hot side without chlorine. I don't believe the issue was sanitation.
 
Don't dump it yet! I had an Arrogant Bastard Clone where everything went very smooth but at the end of a month it just smelled and tasted nasty. I could not come up with a reason why this would be. I went ahead and bottled it and after carbing for 2 weeks it tasted like vinegar. I was bumming. Let it sit in the bottle for another 2 weeks and it is just fantastic! It just takes some beers more time. Do not dump that beer.
 
Beerfly said:
The vinyl tube may have a small effect but not it would be a hint and not so overpowering it is undrinkable. I use it all the time and don't taste it but I would expect faint if it were to happen.

You said you did a batch sparge and the water was 180 degrees. Was that the temperature going in or the temperature of your mash after adding it? I try to get mine up to 168 with 200 degree water and it never even gets there. If you used 180 degree water, I don't think that is your issue either.

My guess would maybe be your new cooler. Being new maybe it gave off some plastic type funk?
Click to expand...

The off-flavor is really strong, so it may not be the vinyl tube. I'm going to go silicone just in case.

I didn't worry about mashout, so I just filled the tun again. Then I did a quit vorlauf and drained the tun. Should I wait longer?
 
This happened to me on my first 2 all grain batches. I found that my problem was a combination of underpitching and high fermentation temps.

Also, I batch sparge and usually use 195 degree water for the sparge. Hold at mash temp for an hour. Drain mash ton. Add half of 195 degree sparge water to get grain bed close to 168. Stir like crazy, let it sit for 10 minutes, stir like crazy, drain. Repeat with last half of sparge water.
 
phuff7129 said:
Don't dump it yet! I had an Arrogant Bastard Clone where everything went very smooth but at the end of a month it just smelled and tasted nasty. I could not come up with a reason why this would be. I went ahead and bottled it and after carbing for 2 weeks it tasted like vinegar. I was bumming. Let it sit in the bottle for another 2 weeks and it is just fantastic! It just takes some beers more time. Do not dump that beer.
Click to expand...

I keeping holding on to hope. It's tough for me to dumb 5 gal of even bad beer.
 
Let it cold condition for a few more weeks! I got really concerned when I pulled my first pint from my AG setup...to the point I was asking myself - what the F$&@ have you done? 2 weeks later - it was awesome beer....
 
chumpsteak said:
This happened to me on my first 2 all grain batches. I found that my problem was a combination of underpitching and high fermentation temps.
Click to expand...

I used a wyeast slap pack in five gallons. It wasn't a very big beer, so I didn't bother with a starter. I watched the ferm temps, and they didn't get over 70 according to the strip thermometer on the outside. The conditions were virtually the same as the extract batch I did, and it was great.

I'll definitely go ahead and do a starter next time just to eliminate another potential problem area.
 
1st, dump. I'll explain in a minute.

Unfortunately, I don't know what caused your problems. Probably has to do with poor mash conversion, which resulted in unexpected hoppiness / thin beer, but you didn't list OG/Fg so can't be certain.

  • 180F for sparge water is fine, every beer I make uses 180F water for sparging. That's 75+ batches.
  • I used vinyl tubing for a lot of beer and won awards (gold!). Probably not that. (I use silicone now, love it)
  • It's easy to point at fermentation temps, especially with the medicinal comment which makes us think of fusel alcohols caused by high temps, but if you've made this beer before then it should have been the same.

It can be hard to dump a batch of beer, but I've found it helps with closure ( :) ). Put a bad batch behind you and make something better. Don't fret for a year waiting for it get get better, it probably won't. Big fat beers like RIS, barleywine, wee heavy, B. Quad, maybe. Move on brother.
 
My first extract batches were fine too. Something about AG seems to make yeast pitching rates and ferm temps more important.

1 smack pack could contain only 50 million viable yeast if it was a month or two old. Even a 1.050 gravity beer requires close to 200 million yeast. Use Mr. Malty to get the correct pitch rates and get used to making starters or using dry yeast to hit the correct pitch rates. Like you said, it's just one more thing to eliminate as a possible issue.
 
my first guess was high temperature during fermentation but now i see you kept it below 70 so it shouldnt be a case, the other thing comes to mind now is your equipment, maybe it was the vinyl tube or something else that leech the flavors to your beer during the process, did you taste wort before pitching, did it taste ok? Is you OG and FG similar to your extract beer?
And i wouldnt dump it, try to keep it up to a month
 
passedpawn said:
Wouldn't you think he used the same water for his previous beers which turned out fine?
Click to expand...

I would not think that, because it was his first all grain batch! When I did extract brewing I only used spring water. When I started all grain I switched to tap water thinking it would be fine. Then I learned about chlorine ;)
 
passedpawn said:
Wouldn't you think he used the same water for his previous beers which turned out fine?
Click to expand...

But if he has alkaline water that led to tannin extraction during sparging.... That would be something that wouldn't show up in the extract batches.
 
Could be the tubing (sanitized?) coming off the keg. Run a pint thru it or rinse them again and take a pull. I've almost lost it before after taking the first pull after an expensive IPA.... I ran a pint Or so thru the lines and all the sudden (3 minutes later) no medicinal funk :)
 
BrewKnurd said:
But if he has alkaline water that led to tannin extraction during sparging.... That would be something that wouldn't show up in the extract batches.
Click to expand...

I used the tap water on my extract batch and the same water for the all-grain. I didn't get a water report, and I'm regretting that. I also don't have a ph meter or strips. I'll have to get one for the next batch to make sure that isn't an issue.
 
erockomania said:
Could be the tubing (sanitized?) coming off the keg. Run a pint thru it or rinse them again and take a pull. I've almost lost it before after taking the first pull after an expensive IPA.... I ran a pint Or so thru the lines and all the sudden (3 minutes later) no medicinal funk :)
Click to expand...

I'll sanitize tomorrow, and try a fresh pull.
 
It's not unheard of for the water supply to change during the year (from cooler months to the warmer/hot months) so you could be seeing the impact of one change on this batch. I would either purchase good bottled water for the next batch, or get a solid filter system to run the water through. Something that will eliminate (or at least high 9's) the chlorine and such from the water you use.
 
I've used vinyl tubing for my mash tun for 3 years with no off flavors. The astringency probably came from sparging to hot, but the medicinal flavor could be from a few things chlorine/chloramine, yeast derived and infection, .
 
Astringent and particularly medicinal tell me fermentation temperatures. Any chance this one got away from you temperature wise? I don't see you pulling that much plastic out of vinyl tubing in the short time hot wort is contacting it. It will age out a bit, probably, but i'm not sure it'll ever totally go away. Sock this one away somewhere and see if it's drinkable in 6 weeks.

Anyway, don't dump it. Screw closure, this is beer we're talking about. If it's got a chance to be tasty with no effort, I say leave it be. If it's still nasty next month, toss it.
 
A few things. Make sure you're thermometer is accurate. If you are mashing and sparging too hot without realizing, you're beer is doomed. Also,Get a water analysis or use filtered or R.O. water and add a pinch of gypsum to the mash. Lastly , make a starter. Pitch rate is important.
 

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