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I would be interested to see if anyone has actually talked to one of the "breweries" that sell wort in these cubes to see if they are doing anything special on them. I am growing to like the idea, but it still seems like it is a lot of supposition on what you can and can't do with anecdotal evidence that nobody has gotten sick or ruined beer yet.
 
Ummm, my Winpak came with a cap. It shipped separately, almost a week apart from the container :mug: It was threaded.

That is the EXACT same one I bought.
 
That is why I am so confused :).

Call them, it comes with a cap, as seen in the photo. They have a new software program in thier warehouse, and the caps ship separate. Like a WEEK separate. I know this, call them.

I mean in the ad it even sayes it comes with a liquid tight cap.
 
I must have missed this in the OP, but be advised- the ones from US Plastics DO NOT COME WITH A 2" LID. Apparently you have to order them separate.

No no, call them... trust me. It comes with the advertised liquid tight screw on cap. You will get it next week.
 
Well, I thought I would be able to find a container that would work somewhere in town, I mean how hard could it be to find a 5 gallon HDPE sealable container? Apparently quite difficult..... So i will be ordering a couple from US Plastics and trying this out at a later date. I promise I will update this thread when I get around to it :D
 
How about these that were discussed that were from walmart? They seem to be HPDE 2. Anyone going to give it a go on these? Seems there was another thread as well.

Those are 7 gallons, and If I am sealing wort up to store, I do not want all that headspace. I could brew a 7 gallon batch just to fill it, but I don't have a carboy that size, and even if I did, 7 gallons won't fit in a 5 gallon cornie keg....

I did think about those for a long while today when I started to realize that I couldn't find what I was looking for... :(

I did find some 5 and 6 gallon HDPE cans, but like the picture I posted earlier, they have a plug type vent on them that I would not trust to remain sealed. If they were screw cap that would be one thing, but I have yet to find one of those at any camping/general store I have visited. I would have thought they would be common and easy to find, but you live and learn...
 
this will not work, unless you freeze the cubes or add a ton of sulfites.
i hate to be a nasayer, but for twice as long as i have been brewing beer i have been growing mushrooms , makeing sterile grain cultures , isolating unique strains on agar . the cleanlyness needed is peramount and you still are fighting contamanation all the time because unlike beer where you are pitching 500,000,000 cells you may only be useing a couple and the race is on before the airborn bactera out divide you. it does not matter how long you boil the wort the only way you have a chance is to transfer the wort infront of a laminar flow hood in a clean room into an autoclaved , boiled , or irradaided container with an air tite seal and even then if you spill any wort on the threads the bactera can travel in the micron thin film from outside under the cap in.

ask any one who has ever opened a sterile Malt agar petri dish to open air even for just a few sec . with in days you will have all kinds of stuff growing in there.
and thermophilic bacteria are everywere on everything the hot wort will not kill them, sometimes 45 min at 250f and 15psi does not kill them.
 
i think before you try 5 gal just take a quort of wort and try to "can" it
i know it will spoil.
one thing that is offton quoted around here is that no deadly things can grow in beer and that true but beer has almost no free monosaccharides and beer is not wort
all sorts of nasty **** can grow in wort ,hundreds of poisonsus molds - funguses and nasty bactera , that we never see in are fermenting beer becase the yeast , make there own Antibiotics and will clump around , nutralize and later consume many foreign types of bactera and fungus
 
this will not work, unless you freeze the cubes or add a ton of sulfites.
i hate to be a nasayer, but for twice as long as i have been brewing beer i have been growing mushrooms , makeing sterile grain cultures , isolating unique strains on agar . the cleanlyness needed is peramount and you still are fighting contamanation all the time because unlike beer where you are pitching 500,000,000 cells you may only be useing a couple and the race is on before the airborn bactera out divide you. it does not matter how long you boil the wort the only way you have a chance is to transfer the wort infront of a laminar flow hood in a clean room into an autoclaved , boiled , or irradaided container with an air tite seal and even then if you spill any wort on the threads the bactera can travel in the micron thin film from outside under the cap in.

ask any one who has ever opened a sterile Malt agar petri dish to open air even for just a few sec . with in days you will have all kinds of stuff growing in there.
and thermophilic bacteria are everywere on everything the hot wort will not kill them, sometimes 45 min at 250f and 15psi does not kill them.

i think before you try 5 gal just take a quort of wort and try to "can" it
i know it will spoil.
one thing that is offton quoted around here is that no deadly things can grow in beer and that true but beer has almost no free monosaccharides and beer is not wort
all sorts of nasty **** can grow in wort ,hundreds of poisonsus molds - funguses and nasty bactera , that we never see in are fermenting beer becase the yeast , make there own Antibiotics and will clump around , nutralize and later consume many foreign types of bactera and fungus

Having a fair amount of training in microbiology, I too shared the same concerns as you are voicing when i first read about this technique. However, as discussed previously, this method can, has, and will work; a continent of Aussie brewers attest to the fact, as well as several on this board who have tried everything but the long term storage. I have "canned" wort for starters from my boil kettle, and it worked quite well, but I had never thought of trying it with a full batch until I read about the no chill method. There are multiple links on the previous pages, as well as plenty of discussion as to how and why the process shows success when common sense states otherwise.

Remember, when you are working with culture media, not only are you working with something designed to be the perfect media to grow stuff, you are doing it at prime temperatures. Wort is full of sugars and the like which does make it a prime media when cooled, but when canned hot, the act of pasteurization kills just about everything except spore forming bacteria. It has been discussed that spores are not allowed to germinate because while sealed, when the plastic is hot there is enough oxygen permeability to prevent anaerobic growth, plus a patent posted earlier claiming the antibacterial properties of hops. The extensive boiling process coupled with the low pH of wort also lends to its ability to resist infection.

However, despite all this, if you still feel like a nay-sayer, that is quite alright. I will post my results as soon as I get the containers and give this a shot. :mug:
 
It has been discussed that spores are not allowed to germinate because while sealed, when the plastic is hot there is enough oxygen permeability to prevent anaerobic growth

Deathweed - I would be a little careful on this one. That was one guy's theory to explain why people might not be culturing clostridium botulinum. There was no data of the permeability of HDPE at 170 degrees is XXX and the bacteria can't grow in oxygen levels above YYY, so we are safe.

Which is why I asked my question on if anyone has talked to the breweries that need to have some hard data on their side due to the liability of getting people sick. For all we know they have special processes... My initial guess is that at a minimum they are closely monitoring the ph of the wort and making chemical additions as needed to ensure that it is below 4.6 on every batch. That will reduce, but not completely eliminate, the chance of botulism.

Let's face it, even in a pretty decent environment for growth the occurrence rate of botulism is relatively low. IE, how many people every year improperly infuse oils with garlic or chili peppers and home can their vegetables without getting sick. So it could be that the chance is still out there for someone to be that one guy that disproved the theory.

Please don't consider me a naysayer, I am very interested in this method, I think it could add a lot to my brewing, allowing me to brew during the week when I am time limited or to do a 10 gal batch on Sat, and then another one on Sunday while all my equipment has been drug out of the attic. Cool and pitch the first batch Sat night and cube the Sunday batch. I just like to go on data, not anecdotal evidence when it comes to the safety of people coming to my house.
 
Materials: I will purchase 2-4, 5 gallon HDPE water storage containers from walmart to store the "no chill" wort in.

They sell these at Wal-mart?? What section?

I'm following the "real ale in a cube" thing from the Aussie board and the cubes are darn near impossible to come by, other than ordering over the internet.
 
In the 70s Coopers used to hot pack high gravity wort Into 15 Liter Plastic Bags that where in a sturdy box and you could ferment right in the box so this is nothing new .Coopers only started selling their famous Homebrew Concentrate kits in 1984 .

ESB Homebrew Supplies in Sydney Australia revived the Wort Kit about 1999 when Matt Donelan a Aussie brewer who had also worked at the old ESB Shop in Clovelly in the past started The St Peters brewery and ESB and the St Peters Brewery have been selling Wort Kits for the past 10 years using the "No Chill" method .

Fresh Wort Information

The fresh wort kits are filled straight form the brewary's kettle. Unlike the can concentrates, there is no further processing on them. Hence the natural fresh hop and malt grain flavours are intact. The home brewer transfers the wort to his/her fermentor, adds 5-7 liters of cold water, sprinkles the yeast onto the brew and leaves for the fermentation period of 5-7 days(in colder conditions it may take up to two weeks for the yeast to finish fermenting all the way through). So within 5-7 minutes, the fermentaion process has begun. In terms of simplicity, there is nothing on the market to match these kits. And if the home brewer does his/her job well, observing good sanitation and tempurature control the end result is good enough to match, or even better, premium commercial products at a fraction of the cost. These kits have an enviable reputation in the market Australia wide. Because of their simplicity and high quality, they have attracted more people into making their own beer. We have been approached by several small breweries to provide them with their wort reqiurments. In fact we are even supplying the Seven Seas Brewary in Vanuatu with their wort needs. An excellent product and without a duobt the best on the market.

*Brewed and packaged by St Peters Brewery 15 May Street, St Peters NSW
Distributed by ESB Home Brew Supplies*

Fresh Wort Kits

Ive never heard of anyone drying from Botulism from brewing with Wort Kits and they have been on the Aussie market for years .The Brewhouse Kits from Canada are very Similar .
 
They sell these at Wal-mart?? What section?

I'm following the "real ale in a cube" thing from the Aussie board and the cubes are darn near impossible to come by, other than ordering over the internet.


Yeah, that is what I figured out really fast... I thought I had seen them, but I am not in walmart that often so I was mistaken. I will be ordering some off the internet and trying this out at a later date... :(
 
In the 70s Coopers used to hot pack high gravity wort Into 15 Liter Plastic Bags that where in a sturdy box and you could ferment right in the box so this is nothing new .Coopers only started selling their famous Homebrew Concentrate kits in 1984 .

ESB Homebrew Supplies in Sydney Australia revived the Wort Kit about 1999 when Matt Donelan a Aussie brewer who had also worked at the old ESB Shop in Clovelly in the past started The St Peters brewery and ESB and the St Peters Brewery have been selling Wort Kits for the past 10 years using the "No Chill" method .



Fresh Wort Kits

Ive never heard of anyone drying from Botulism from brewing with Wort Kits and they have been on the Aussie market for years .The Brewhouse Kits from Canada are very Similar .

I understand that there are businesses selling them, but my question is more of are they doing anything besides pouring hot wort into a container? Things like porters and stouts could quite possibly have enough sugars and not enough hops that the ph would naturally be in the 5 range which means they might be adding other preservatives besides hops. I have no doubt that things like IPAs (which were designed to last long periods without spoiling) would probably be safe but, what are the key parameters to monitor to make all the beers safe? Maybe temp. when you pour it in is the only one, but the mere existence of kits on the market with the vast chemical arsenal available to the company making them doesn't automatically say that to me.
 
I understand that there are businesses selling them, but my question is more of are they doing anything besides pouring hot wort into a container? Things like porters and stouts could quite possibly have enough sugars and not enough hops that the ph would naturally be in the 5 range which means they might be adding other preservatives besides hops. I have no doubt that things like IPAs (which were designed to last long periods without spoiling) would probably be safe but, what are the key parameters to monitor to make all the beers safe? Maybe temp. when you pour it in is the only one, but the mere existence of kits on the market with the vast chemical arsenal available to the company making them doesn't automatically say that to me.

I didn't want to blow my own trumpet but I worked for ESB and helped develop the packaging and the concept and can tell you that nothing was added only a solution of peracetic acid and water was sprayed into the plastic cubes to help prevent any airborne bacteria having any chance to survive and they are packed above 80 degrees C straight after a 20 minute whirlpool , but the worts are a higher gravity and the IBUs are higher so you add 4 liters of water to them to dilute it down so it will be in style guide lines .Only the Stout and bock Had no water added so they would stay within Style .
 
thanks for the info matt -- was the higher wort concentration by design for food safety or just a byproduct of the size of container chosen?
 
The Food safety of a higher gravity, higher IBU wort was considered a side benefit but we mainly relied on the heat of the wort over a long period of time for food saftey .

Also the higher concentration meant the customer could carry a package that was easy to manage. Orginaly we packaged in bag in box Wine bladders but scuttled that idea after the bladders broke the boxes we packed them in and started with Food grade HDPE cubes that we already sold Wholesale as racking vessels,that where easier to fill also.

Barth-Hass the biggest Hop broker and Processor in the World has several patents regarding the Antimicriobial Effects of hop extracts including one titled Antimicrobial activity of hops extract against Clostridium botulinum, Clostridium difficile and Helicobacter pylori with

Antimicrobial activity of hops extract against Clostridium botulinum, Clostridium difficile and Helicobacter pylori - Patent 6251461

Botanix also sells hop products to the food processing industry that utilize the Antimicrobial effects of hops .

paper01
 
2. This cube from Northern Brewer is 5 gallons. Do you think it would actually hold 5.5?
http://www.northernbrewer.com/pics/fullsize/cubes3.jpg

Those are cubitainers and they won’t work for this application. Or, at least, they are not the HDPE cubes being discussed. If you’ll look real closely at the upper left corner of the largest cube on the pic, you see it says LDPE.

I actually use them for something entirely different. https://www.homebrewtalk.com/f35/fellow-homebrewers-meet-my-new-beer-engine-10529/index15.html#post1300674

For the HDPE cubes there is US Plastics… then there’s this company Plastic Jugs, HDPE Utility Jugs with Spigots
 
The Food safety of a higher gravity, higher IBU wort was considered a side benefit but we mainly relied on the heat of the wort over a long period of time for food saftey .

Also the higher concentration meant the customer could carry a package that was easy to manage. Orginaly we packaged in bag in box Wine bladders but scuttled that idea after the bladders broke the boxes we packed them in and started with Food grade HDPE cubes that we already sold Wholesale as racking vessels,that where easier to fill also.

Barth-Hass the biggest Hop broker and Processor in the World has several patents regarding the Antimicriobial Effects of hop extracts including one titled Antimicrobial activity of hops extract against Clostridium botulinum, Clostridium difficile and Helicobacter pylori with

Antimicrobial activity of hops extract against Clostridium botulinum, Clostridium difficile and Helicobacter pylori - Patent 6251461

Botanix also sells hop products to the food processing industry that utilize the Antimicrobial effects of hops .

paper01

Ok good, I am glad someone out there backed up the source on antimicrobial properties on hops against C. botulinum that I put in the OP. Also thanks for all your good information!
 
I'm making a 8 gal batch. Forgetting the whole chill/no chill pro's and cons does anyone have a good reason why I couldn't use 2 cleaned and sanitized corny kegs as the no chill containers? After cooling overnight I would remove the gas in posts and attach a blow off tubes to each keg, pop the lids, pitch the yeast, replace the lids and ferment in them as well.
 
I'm making a 8 gal batch. Forgetting the whole chill/no chill pro's and cons does anyone have a good reason why I couldn't use 2 cleaned and sanitized corny kegs as the no chill containers? After cooling overnight I would remove the gas in posts and attach a blow off tubes to each keg, pop the lids, pitch the yeast, replace the lids and ferment in them as well.

The only thing that comes to mind, is vaccuum. Dunno if it is a problem, but there is A LOT of vaccuum generated when the wort/headspace shrinks
 
So what happens to the plastic containers during this? Do they collapse in some?

YUP, this is why HDPE is great, it has great heat handling and is flexibe, the sides collapse in an inch on mine.

This method will cause an ALE PAIL to collapse in on itself as witnessed by another HBTer.
 
I'm making a 8 gal batch. Forgetting the whole chill/no chill pro's and cons does anyone have a good reason why I couldn't use 2 cleaned and sanitized corny kegs as the no chill containers? After cooling overnight I would remove the gas in posts and attach a blow off tubes to each keg, pop the lids, pitch the yeast, replace the lids and ferment in them as well.



The only thing that comes to mind, is vaccuum. Dunno if it is a problem, but there is A LOT of vaccuum generated when the wort/headspace shrinks


2 ideas, one would be to put some pressure on the keg while it is hot to compensate for cooling vacuum. How much would be a best guess..., not sure this is a good idea

or 2nd, I have a sanitary air filter. I could put the blow off tube on from the get/go with the air filter and keep the pressure in the keg equalized.

Opps. have to buy a 2nd filter for the 2nd keg :)
 
Ok good, I am glad someone out there backed up the source on antimicrobial properties on hops against C. botulinum that I put in the OP. Also thanks for all your good information!

Yeah, that's good information. I knew hops were a preservative, but I thought that a lot of their ability to stop botulism was in the fact that the lower the ph of the beer when you use sufficient quantities. This patent makes it seem like any amount of hops that you can taste will be more then necessary to prevent microbial growth.

2 ideas, one would be to put some pressure on the keg while it is hot to compensate for cooling vacuum. How much would be a best guess..., not sure this is a good idea

or 2nd, I have a sanitary air filter. I could put the blow off tube on from the get/go with the air filter and keep the pressure in the keg equalized.

Opps. have to buy a 2nd filter for the 2nd keg :)

If you put pressure into the keg then when the vacuum is created won't the co2 go into solution? Also, not sure about exposing the wort to air as it cools, even with a filter on....I would say just buy a couple of the US plastics containers. That's what I am planning on doing.
 
Yeah, that's good information. I knew hops were a preservative, but I thought that a lot of their ability to stop botulism was in the fact that the lower the ph of the beer when you use sufficient quantities. This patent makes it seem like any amount of hops that you can taste will be more then necessary to prevent microbial growth.

The Patent states that it requires 1ppm to be effective and 1ppm of standardized 30% Hop Extract like Iso Alpha Acid extract is equal to 1 IBU .
 
Yeah, that's good information. I knew hops were a preservative, but I thought that a lot of their ability to stop botulism was in the fact that the lower the ph of the beer when you use sufficient quantities. This patent makes it seem like any amount of hops that you can taste will be more then necessary to prevent microbial growth.



If you put pressure into the keg then when the vacuum is created won't the co2 go into solution? Also, not sure about exposing the wort to air as it cools, even with a filter on....I would say just buy a couple of the US plastics containers. That's what I am planning on doing.


Yes you are right. I was thinking sanitation and forgetting about oxidation. I was trying use equipment I already have vs. buying stuff I don't have.
 
I was trying use equipment I already have vs. buying stuff I don't have.

I can understand that --- If you have a way to oxygenate the wort before pitching yeast, absorbing CO2 probably wouldn't be a big deal.
 
The Patent states that it requires 1ppm to be effective and 1ppm of standardized 30% Hop Extract like Iso Alpha Acid extract is equal to 1 IBU .

The patent is talking about a beta acid containing extract made with a solvent.

Beta acids are not particularly soluble in wort which is why, despite the fact that isomerized beta acids are bitter, beta acids are completely ignored in most IBU estimations.
 
The patent is talking about a beta acid containing extract made with a solvent.

Beta acids are not particularly soluble in wort which is why, despite the fact that isomerized beta acids are bitter, beta acids are completely ignored in most IBU estimations.

If you actuly read the patent the Extract which is the patent for the Barth Haas product Betastab does contain some Iso Alpha Acids but they use more beta's because they are not as bitter and remain below taste thresholds in the finished product.



Iso Alpha acids are actually more effective as a Antibacterial against gram positive bacteria and they work by disrupting the nutrient pathway at the cellular level so the bacteria starve this is more effective if the PH is raised also having a higher gravity/IBU wort at packaging helps and the customer can easily dilute the wort with some water when they brew .

www.lfl.bayern.de/ipz/hopfen/10585/poster1_01.pdf

If you added a mild food grade acid (phosphoric) to the wort and then added some sort of carbonate (potassium bicarbonate) to neutralize the acid when you brew you would pretty much eliminate any risk of any food borne pathogens because the increased PH enhances the Antibacterial properties of Hop Acids as well as acidifies the wort slightly , but I would only recommend that you add a Food grade acid if you where going to store your wort for months but most homebrewers are only going to be storing wort in cubes for a few days .
 
Got my 6 gallon containers in from US Plastics today.

dsc01776.jpg


I have a ton of #2 bungs and several blowoff setups for #2 so I drilled 5/8" holes in the center of the lids rather than buying 11.5 bungs.
 
Is “making kabobs” an Aussie euphemism for something naughty?
My missus is plenty naughty already, i'm, referring to the Greek/Turkish dish which is lamb, garlic, yoghurt, lettuce etc wrapped in a flat bread...
That and beer is to die for....

So are you all cubing yet... i live and breathe, testament to the fact that although i no-chill cubed 4-5 brews before pitching you can survive it.
I'm no scientist but i can say it works....
 
I no chilled another beer yesterday, actually I sold off my IC yeterday too!

I had a guest over from HBT for a brew session yesterday, who could not believe that I was not chilling my beer. So I pointed him at the tap on my kegerator where my No Chill Haus Ale was, he loved it. He mentioned how CLEAN it tasted... seriously, no chilling works.

I converted at least one person to brewing on an electric HERMS yesterday and possibly two people to no chill brewing.

Brew On!
 
My missus is plenty naughty already, i'm, referring to the Greek/Turkish dish which is lamb, garlic, yoghurt, lettuce etc wrapped in a flat bread...
That and beer is to die for....

Ah, OK. I follow aussiehomebrewer.com and the Aussie-isms are a bit difficult at times- though I must admit the question was tongue in cheek. The missus and I make kabobs ourselves, including homemaking the flatbread and yogurt. It’s not too difficult, really; especially compared to home-brewing beer.

Kudos to you and your countrymen for your spirit of adventure relating to home-brewing. I’ve adopted a modified Real Ale in a Cube system, learned from an Aussie, and it’s the greatest thing since sliced bread.


So are you all cubing yet... i live and breathe, testament to the fact that although i no-chill cubed 4-5 brews before pitching you can survive it.
I'm no scientist but i can say it works....

I shall try the no-chill method very soon.
 
Eschatz tried my no chill Haus Ale today... he seemed to like it just fine. My no chill SNPA clone is chugging away 24 hours after the boil!
 

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