Berliner Weiss, many ways

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Tiroux

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So, I'm planning a batch of Berliner Weiss for the upcoming spring. I've read around on this forum and other ones, to finally find many many ways to brew/ferment a berliner weiss.

I would like to ear your experiences with these different methods and the difference in results.

1a - Normal mash + single fermentation with both Yeast and lactobacillus, pitch at the same time.

1b - Same thing, but with Brettamyces instead of Saccharomyces

1c - Same thing, but with WLP630 Berliner Weiss Blend

2a - Normal mash + single fermentation, but pitching lactobacillus few days before pitching saccharomyces

2b - Same thing, but with Brettamyces

3 - Normal mash + seperate fermentation (half with lacto, half with sacch or brett, then blend at bottling)

4 - Normal mash + primary with Yeast, then Secondary with Lacto

5a - Sour mash + yeast fermentation

5b - Sour mash + yeast/lacto fermentation in any previously said way

*6 - For every normal or sour mash, the choice to boil or not to boil (only pasteurize)
 
1c for me.

20 min boil, berliner weiss blend added and maintained at 100ºF for 4 days, then cooled to 65º. This sat for 6 months, then I added more lacto and sugar for 4 volumes of carb and bottled in heavy Belgians. I really like it and am making another batch in a few weeks.
 
ColoHox said:
1c for me.

20 min boil, berliner weiss blend added and maintained at 100ºF for 4 days, then cooled to 65º. This sat for 6 months, then I added more lacto and sugar for 4 volumes of carb and bottled in heavy Belgians. I really like it and am making another batch in a few weeks.

Im happy to have reviews of this strain. But, 6 montus aint long for a 1030 og beer? I've seen about 2 months most of the time. Also im not sure I can keep it at 100... Is it the recommanded temp?
 
Im happy to have reviews of this strain. But, 6 montus aint long for a 1030 og beer? I've seen about 2 months most of the time. Also im not sure I can keep it at 100... Is it the recommanded temp?

Mine is not exactly to style. I experimented with the plan for this recipe for a while. I go to 1.050 then allow it to sit in primary longer. Less time in primary and regular bottles was bad news.

96-100 is best for Lactobacillus. It grows very rapidly at that temp. Although it takes a while for the sourness to develop. I know this is supposed to be a small a quick beer, but I like it with just a tad more flavor and sourness.
 
ColoHox said:
Mine is not exactly to style. I experimented with the plan for this recipe for a while. I go to 1.050 then allow it to sit in primary longer. Less time in primary and regular bottles was bad news.

96-100 is best for Lactobacillus. It grows very rapidly at that temp. Although it takes a while for the sourness to develop. I know this is supposed to be a small a quick beer, but I like it with just a tad more flavor and sourness.

Ok. Makes sens. I'll manage a way to leep warmth for a few days. But im still not fixed on the strains to use.. Id maybe go with separate fermentation, lacto and brett C
 
The only trouble I see with a separate fermentation is making sure which lacto strain you get. Some lacto strains don't have the ability to ferment maltose, meaning that when you blend them together at bottling, the Brett is going to see all that new maltose and go kablooey. According to the Mad Fermentationist (great website for info by the way), the white labs lacto strain should be able to ferment maltose, while the wyeast can't. If you decide to go with a separate fermentation, make sure you get the White Labs.
 
Lactobacillus delbrueckii is the primary strain used in a Berliner weisse. White labs sells this and a starter can be made with some dme and apple juice to get better numbers.
 
The only trouble I see with a separate fermentation is making sure which lacto strain you get. Some lacto strains don't have the ability to ferment maltose, meaning that when you blend them together at bottling, the Brett is going to see all that new maltose and go kablooey. According to the Mad Fermentationist (great website for info by the way), the white labs lacto strain should be able to ferment maltose, while the wyeast can't. If you decide to go with a separate fermentation, make sure you get the White Labs.


I forgot to mention, or maybe I said it wrong (english ain't my language he!)

I wouldn't blend them at bottling, but in secondary. 1 month apart, 1 month together, then bottling and full carb with champagne yeast.

I was looking at Lactobacillus Delbrueckii and Brettanomyces Claussenii, both from White Lab
 
I did a Lacto starter instead of buying it. Mix up a pint of 1.030 sucrose solution (table sugar) and scoop two table spoons of whole base malt in and let it sit in a warm place for a week. If it smells like apples afterwords it is good. Then mash, pasturize( I did it a 180) Cool it to about 100 and pitch your starter for 18 - 24 hours before cooling and pitching your sacc

This should give you fast turn around, complex and good sourness berlinner. The lacto starter most likely has some brett too.

I did this and had a very sour, beautifully complex beer that was drinkable in one weeks time! and after three weeks it was awesome! I got a bronze at the sunshine challenge in florida this past fall, and have entered it a few other times with scores in the the high thirties/ low forties.

This was with basic american 2-row, a touch of munich and white wheat. If i did it again I'd use a more complex base like german pils or something but the same schedule.

Oh and no hops, why waste them?
 
Thanks! I think I'll go with buying a vial (that will be the most expensive item on the recipe, ahahah!) of lactobacillus.

You used a saccharomyces strain?

I see most of people use Sacch... but also some that use Brett, and get really good result. I also see the WL Berliner Weisse Blend use Brett instead of Sacc.

I think I'll give it a try with lacto D and brett C, as said. But now... separate fermentation, or a single one but add lacto first...

I'm planing 50% german Pils and 50% White wheat, no hops, or so little (less than half an once for a 5gal)
 
Thanks! I think I'll go with buying a vial (that will be the most expensive item on the recipe, ahahah!) of lactobacillus.

You used a saccharomyces strain?

I see most of people use Sacch... but also some that use Brett, and get really good result. I also see the WL Berliner Weisse Blend use Brett instead of Sacc.

I think I'll give it a try with lacto D and brett C, as said. But now... separate fermentation, or a single one but add lacto first...

I'm planing 50% german Pils and 50% White wheat, no hops, or so little (less than half an once for a 5gal)

After reflexion, it came to my head that I would need to add ale or champagne yeast to carb it in the bottles, so I refined my idea.

For a couple of weeks, ferment side-by-side two half-batches with Lactobacillus D. and Brett C to let both yeast/bacteria do its thing, then rack together. If the SG is still a bit high, I could pitch an ale yeast right now, if not, I just let age a bit, and add yeast at bottling to full carb.

I'll give it a try... nothing to loose. A few bucks. I use only glass carboy so cleaning shouldn't be a problem, and I'' have a ''lambic'' marked set of Siphon/bottling bucket/etc...
 
After reflexion, it came to my head that I would need to add ale or champagne yeast to carb it in the bottles, so I refined my idea.

Why do you need to add additional yeast? I think adding champagne yeast would be unnecessary. Brett, in particular, can handle more types of fermentables than ale yeast, so it works on the wort for a long time. Adding sugar before bottling would work, the Brett (or Lacto) will chew through it just fine.
 
Why do you need to add additional yeast? I think adding champagne yeast would be unnecessary. Brett, in particular, can handle more types of fermentables than ale yeast, so it works on the wort for a long time. Adding sugar before bottling would work, the Brett (or Lacto) will chew through it just fine.

I've been told Brett doesn't really carb well in bottle. Didn't really understood why, but...
 
I've been told Brett doesn't really carb well in bottle. Didn't really understood why, but...

It carbs so well (although slower), that it will make your bottles explode. This is less of an issue if you plan on drinking the batch pretty quickly. Then, adding an ale yeast or champagne yeast will result in a pretty quick carbonation (a week or so). Brett will continue to chew through any fermentables left in the bottle. I guess your time frame will determine what you do.
 
It carbs so well (although slower), that it will make your bottles explode. This is less of an issue if you plan on drinking the batch pretty quickly. Then, adding an ale yeast or champagne yeast will result in a pretty quick carbonation (a week or so). Brett will continue to chew through any fermentables left in the bottle. I guess your time frame will determine what you do.

Ok, good to know. But, for an OG of 1030, after about 2 months of brett/lacto fermentation, there's still extra sugars? Anyways, I'll bottling in belgian 750ml heavy bottles at 3.5vol, with corks. I think they can resist 4-5 vol, so I should be find even if the brett continue to eat on a long term.

When you say longer for carb, you means weeks, months..?
 
Ok, good to know. But, for an OG of 1030, after about 2 months of brett/lacto fermentation, there's still extra sugars? Anyways, I'll bottling in belgian 750ml heavy bottles at 3.5vol, with corks. I think they can resist 4-5 vol, so I should be find even if the brett continue to eat on a long term.

When you say longer for carb, you means weeks, months..?

Brettanomyces eats sugars (and breaks down starches) that saccharomyces cannot. If you leave it to work long enough, it can completely dry your beer out to 1.000 or possibly even lower. The typical amount of gravity loss necessary to carb a bottle to 2 volumes is something like .003 (it's been a while, but it's something in that range IIRC). So say your Berliner Weiss ferments from 1.030 down to 1.006, which is 80% apparent attenuation. That still leaves another 2-4+ volumes of stuff for the brett to work on. 2 volumes is fine. 3 volumes, you're starting to get into the danger zone for regular 12oz bottles, but for your heavy duty ones designed for higher carbonation you're probably fine. 4+ volumes...I'm not sure how I'd feel about storing those bottles.
 
Brettanomyces eats sugars (and breaks down starches) that saccharomyces cannot. If you leave it to work long enough, it can completely dry your beer out to 1.000 or possibly even lower. The typical amount of gravity loss necessary to carb a bottle to 2 volumes is something like .003 (it's been a while, but it's something in that range IIRC). So say your Berliner Weiss ferments from 1.030 down to 1.006, which is 80% apparent attenuation. That still leaves another 2-4+ volumes of stuff for the brett to work on. 2 volumes is fine. 3 volumes, you're starting to get into the danger zone. 4+ volumes...I'm not sure how I'd feel about storing those bottles.

Yhea I know... the point is I won't bottle at 1.006.
2 months of fermentation is an approximation, I don't really know the speed of the brett, for certainly, I know my beer will finish around 1.000, so I'll wait to be in this zone before I bottle.

Edit: Anyways... this type of beer is made to be drink fast, you know, very very low alcool, refreshing beer. That's probably why I would add some sacch at bottling and begin to drink it fast.
 
I recently did the sour mash/ferment with ale yeast method you had as 5a. The sourness was right on after about 36 hours of the sour mash. 15 minute boil with 1/2 ounce of Hallertau. Being so low of an OG, it was fermented out in no time. Including the sour mash, I could have had this from grain to glass in a week, seriously. Oh, and 5 gallons cost about $10.
 
I recently did the sour mash/ferment with ale yeast method you had as 5a. The sourness was right on after about 36 hours of the sour mash. 15 minute boil with 1/2 ounce of Hallertau. Being so low of an OG, it was fermented out in no time. Including the sour mash, I could have had this from grain to glass in a week, seriously. Oh, and 5 gallons cost about $10.

Yhea, this method sounds pretty nice too. It might be a way always keep a good stock of really-easy drinkable beer. I will probably will give it a try, but I guess it's a pretty different beer from the one I would make with lacto/brett fermentation. I'll probably give a try to both.

At what t° did you hold the mash during souring? And how (where?)
 
A little while back a friend and I split a Berliner and fermented it 2 different ways. He pitched a vial of WLP Lacto for 48 hrs warm then Sacc, I tossed a handful of Pilsner malt into primary and kept it warm for 48 hours then picthed sacc.

His has no sourness whatsoever, just turned out strange. Mine is sharply acidic, almost too sour, at one point it had an aroma that was a little off putting. So I pitched a little bit of Brett Trois and it cleaned up the aroma brilliantly. Its a VERY sour berliner weisse but is pretty refreshing. Grain to glass ~4 months.

Next time I will do a Lacto start from grains and not throw the grains into primary.
 
Coff said:
A little while back a friend and I split a Berliner and fermented it 2 different ways. He pitched a vial of WLP Lacto for 48 hrs warm then Sacc, I tossed a handful of Pilsner malt into primary and kept it warm for 48 hours then picthed sacc.

His has no sourness whatsoever, just turned out strange. Mine is sharply acidic, almost too sour, at one point it had an aroma that was a little off putting. So I pitched a little bit of Brett Trois and it cleaned up the aroma brilliantly. Its a VERY sour berliner weisse but is pretty refreshing. Grain to glass ~4 months.

Next time I will do a Lacto start from grains and not throw the grains into primary.

Thats interesting. Probably the illustration of two different lacto strains and/or pitching rate
 
Yhea, this method sounds pretty nice too. It might be a way always keep a good stock of really-easy drinkable beer. I will probably will give it a try, but I guess it's a pretty different beer from the one I would make with lacto/brett fermentation. I'll probably give a try to both.

At what t° did you hold the mash during souring? And how (where?)

I use a cooler mash tun. After the initial mash, I added ice to get it down to about 105*. Added a handful of uncrushed 2-row, stirred and sealed it up. Every 8 hours I added enough boiling water to bring it up to 105* Usually about a quart. You have to taste it too. It's kinda gross but the only way youll get the sourness you want. Mine was good after 36 hours.

Also, if you can, flood the headspace of the mash tun with CO2. I have read it smells very bad if you dont. I did and it had a cooked corn smell, which was weird, but not bad.
 
bknifefight said:
I use a cooler mash tun. After the initial mash, I added ice to get it down to about 105*. Added a handful of uncrushed 2-row, stirred and sealed it up. Every 8 hours I added enough boiling water to bring it up to 105* Usually about a quart. You have to taste it too. It's kinda gross but the only way youll get the sourness you want. Mine was good after 36 hours.

Also, if you can, flood the headspace of the mash tun with CO2. I have read it smells very bad if you dont. I did and it had a cooked corn smell, which was weird, but not bad.

I have no cooler nor a co2 tank so i would have to manage something . I was thinking, for a small batch, to keep it in the oven, with oven light on. Its keeps aound 50*C
 
You want a quick Berliner? Pitch the lacto into the wort and keep as warm as you can for about a week. No hops, Lacto doesn't like hops. Ideally you would want to keep it around 100 F, but as long as it is not too low, the lacto should still work.

You pitch the lacto without the yeast, because Lacto doesn't like alcohol, and it will slow its progress down, and possibly prevent it from working.

Once it is as sour as you want it (and it can take a week, or more; a lot depends on the amount of Lacto you pitch, and temperature you keep it at), boil it, add whatever hops you want, and ferment with whatever yeast you want. Pitch big, as the acidic environment is hostile to regular yeast.

You can be in the bottle in 4 weeks.

Good luck
 
You want a quick Berliner? Pitch the lacto into the wort and keep as warm as you can for about a week. No hops, Lacto doesn't like hops. Ideally you would want to keep it around 100 F, but as long as it is not too low, the lacto should still work.

You pitch the lacto without the yeast, because Lacto doesn't like alcohol, and it will slow its progress down, and possibly prevent it from working.

Once it is as sour as you want it (and it can take a week, or more; a lot depends on the amount of Lacto you pitch, and temperature you keep it at), boil it, add whatever hops you want, and ferment with whatever yeast you want. Pitch big, as the acidic environment is hostile to regular yeast.

You can be in the bottle in 4 weeks.

Good luck

Thanks!

I think my method could be pretty too, no?

I pitch a Vial of Lacto in 2.5gal of wort (preboiled), which I keep at 80*F for 1-2 weeks. (it's pretty much the higher I can go at this time)

I pitch a vial of Brett in 2.5gal of wort (preboild), wich I keep at 75*F for the same 1-2 weeks.

Since it's a fairly low density wort (1030), pretty much all the sugars should be consumed after 2 weeks. Lactic acid on one side, Alcohol on the other side. Then I blend together and let it another week or two so the fermentation can continue/finish. Then bottle, and drink.
 
I pitch a Vial of Lacto in 2.5gal of wort (preboiled), which I keep at 80*F for 1-2 weeks. (it's pretty much the higher I can go at this time)

I pitch a vial of Brett in 2.5gal of wort (preboild), wich I keep at 75*F for the same 1-2 weeks.

Since it's a fairly low density wort (1030), pretty much all the sugars should be consumed after 2 weeks. Lactic acid on one side, Alcohol on the other side. Then I blend together and let it another week or two so the fermentation can continue/finish. Then bottle, and drink.

The Lactobacillus will only sour to a certain concentration. After that it goes into it's dormant phase. If you only sour half the batch and then blend, you end up diluting and getting only half the sourness (you dilute the lactic acid by 2X).

Depending on the Lactobacillus strain (and the make up of the beer), it may or may not continue souring. If it does continue souring, it will be very slow due to the presence of alcohol and possibly hops.

If you sour the whole lot first, and then ferment, with yeast, you will get more sourness quicker.
 
The Lactobacillus will only sour to a certain concentration. After that it goes into it's dormant phase. If you only sour half the batch and then blend, you end up diluting and getting only half the sourness (you dilute the lactic acid by 2X).

Depending on the Lactobacillus strain (and the make up of the beer), it may or may not continue souring. If it does continue souring, it will be very slow due to the presence of alcohol and possibly hops.

If you sour the whole lot first, and then ferment, with yeast, you will get more sourness quicker.

Ok, that's good to know. The more I'm thinking, the more I think I won't put any hops.

It might not be very sour, but the brett would give a pretty nice aroma too, so... I will see. There's a guy here who won several gold medals for his BW with this method. It's a test batch, we'll see!
 
I did option 1C, no boil, 1/2 oz stale hops thrown into the mash. I racked and bottled after about a month, and it was very sour. I then made another batch dumped it onto the yeast cake. I threw in two cans of Raspberry puree after two weeks. It made a very very light beer almost translucently pink... high carbonation. My wife says it tastes like a wine cooler crossed with sweet tarts.
 
I've done about 5 batches using 5a. I kept the first few in a fridge with a light to keep it at ~100-110F. This sours it VERY quickly. I'm talking 2 days and it's really sharply acidic. I also did it at room temp and it took ~4 days. You'll get weird creamed corn/garbage flavors, especially if you keep it hot, this is a good sign.

I throw my wort in a home depot bucket, put a layer of saran wrap on the liquid to minimize O2 and taste it daily. Quick 15 minute boil, a few hops, ferment with sacc (i've done a kolsch yeast, 001, and dregs from Sierra Nevada/Russian River BRUX) and you're bottled in a week, drinking in 10 days.

Mine are always equal parts pilsner and wheat malt. Sometimes leaning more towards wheat. Low ABV ~3%. I've added fruit successfully too (~1 pineapple chopped in 2 gallons).
 
I plan on doing a berliner here soon. my plan is to make a four gallon batch and then use us-05 or something. then do a 1 gallon 2 day sour mash and simply add it to the other batch. so in total it will be a 5 gallon batch.

something like
3 lbs wheat
3 lbs pilsner
1 lb munich

mash hop 1 oz hallertau

let it ferment out for 6 months i think.
 
Okay, i looked around a lot, and I had great informations from Neva Parker at White Labs, so I'm set now.

3 lb pilsen malt
3 lb wheat malt

No hops (lactobacillus dont like hops)

150*F mash

20m boil

Pitch a 1L starter of Brettanomyces Claussenii in 2.5g of wort

Pitch a 1L starter of lactobacillus (anaerobic starter) in 2.5g of non-oxygenated wort.

After 1-2 weeks (depending on the temperature i can hold), i blend the two halves in a secondary vessel until gravity stabilizes. I guess something around a month or so.

Bottle with priming sugar to get 3.0-3.5vol of CO2, them wait 3-4 weeks for brett to do their job, them drink!

I'll maybe repitch wort on the lees when I transfert to secondary.
 
I just did a quicky Berlinner Weiss last weekend with Aciduated Malt. One hour mash for the normal grains, then an additional one hour mash with aciduated malt at 7% of the grist.

2 liter starter with German Ale yeast.

This process was recommended to me by a pro brewer who makes a very good Berlinner Weiss that he turns around in 2 weeks. He gave me the process, but wouldn't give me the proportions, so I researched a little and came up with some educated guesses. I have no idea how it's going to turn out, but the lactic acid should definitely tart the beer. I'm going to rack onto raspberries on Friday.
 
I did a sour mash over this past weekend. It smelled bad after an overnight ~105F rest, and after ~2 days of that it smelled truly horrific. There were people walking by across the street holding their noses when I did the boil. Taste was fine, though. Nice level of lactic acid in there, I thought. I split roughly 4:3 into two fermenters. I had originally wanted to pitch with regular ol' saccharomyces, but then I got to thinking about how I would like a bit more complexity in there, so I pitched one with WLP665 (Sour Mix 1) and the other I dumped the dregs from a bottles of Russian River Supplication and Fantome Saison Printemps. So, maybe it won't be quite like a Berliner Weiss.

Also, due to the smell, my original plan of keeping them in the house to stay warm sort of fell through, because I'd like to stay married. So, they've been in the garage in the 60's instead.


So I guess that puts me in 5b.
 
Flushing the mash tun head with CO2 helps with the smell. It still smells but not bad, more of a cooked corn smell. I managed to have mine in the basement for 36 hours and the wife didn't complain. You could smell it upstairs and when you came into the house.
 
I just did a quicky Berlinner Weiss last weekend with Aciduated Malt. One hour mash for the normal grains, then an additional one hour mash with aciduated malt at 7% of the grist.

2 liter starter with German Ale yeast.

This process was recommended to me by a pro brewer who makes a very good Berlinner Weiss that he turns around in 2 weeks. He gave me the process, but wouldn't give me the proportions, so I researched a little and came up with some educated guesses. I have no idea how it's going to turn out, but the lactic acid should definitely tart the beer. I'm going to rack onto raspberries on Friday.

Well, 7% Acid malt seems to be a normal amount to balance pH to a desirable range. So, unless you are starting with a already acidic water, it wouldn't give any sour/acidic beer. And Saccharomyces doesn't like low pH environment. It more seems like a Light Weizen / German Wheat Ale, than a Berliner Weisse.

My guess would be a nice smooth and light beer, but nothing near a sour or acidulated beer. I'm still really interested to hear about the results. Please let us know!
 
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