Lactobacillus (Wyeast 5335) fermentation question

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julian81

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I brewed a Berliner Weisse this past weekend (Sunday). OG 1.030 and cooled it down to 100F and pitched a 1L starter of Wyeast 5335 (that was on a stir plate for 3 days - I know, I wanted to go longer but time wouldn't allow). I pitched at around 4pm on Sunday.

The wort is in my fermentation chamber at 100F consistent, and showing no signs of airlock activity or krausen as of this morning, Tuesday. Should I be seeing signs after 40 hours or so? I popped the carboy cap off and took a whiff, and it does not smell even mildly tangy/acidic. I'm going to check the gravity, ph and taste it when I get home, but just wondering if this is normal behavior for lacto? This is the first time I've used it.

Thanks,
Julian
 
This will not ferment your beer (...wort) if you did not also add a standard (S. cerevisiae) yeast, that is likely why you have no signs of fermentation.
 
KCBrew said:
This will not ferment your beer (...wort) if you did not also add a standard (S. cerevisiae) yeast, that is likely why you have no signs of fermentation.
Click to expand...

Do you have a source for this? Because I was at a presentation at NHC this year, and Jess Caudill (wyeast) stated that the optimal fermentation profile for a berliner is to pitch lacto first for a week then sach afterwards to help it finish off - this also provides optimal acid production. This is what I am attempting to do. I will be pitching sach once the lacto has done it's part.



So I think you may be mistaken.
 
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Well, if by fermentation you mean production of CO2 and alcohol (airlock activity and bubbling), then I don't believe that you will see fermentation.

If by fermentation you mean conversion of sugars into lactic acid, then you do indeed have fermentation, but don't expect to see krausen, airlock activity or significant drop in your OG until you add S. ceresiviae.
 
Also, from my experience with pickling and the like, you may see small bubbles and whitish film begin to form. But I'm not sure if that happens with pure lactobacillis in wort after a few days or not.

Anyway, I am generally interested in making a berliner weisse, so if you could keep us updated that would be very helpful.
 
OK, you had previously stated that it will not ferment my beer and I took that as meaning there would be no conversion of sugars into co2 and alcohol and no acid production. Thanks for the clarification.

Strange, I've seen videos online of wort krausening and bubbling. Mine is not. I'll keep an eye on it and check gravity/ph and taste to be sure. I'm going to pick up another lacto pack today just in case, and get a larger starter going in case I need to pitch that too.

I'll definitely keep you updated.
 
Sorry KC, but I have a Berliner going right now by the same technique that Jess Claudill put forth and I did have about 48 hours if bubbling air lock and a nice krausen (pic attached). And it dropped the SG from 1.038 down to 1.018 in 5 days.
Mind you, I had the lacto starter going for a full 5 days before pitching so you may just have to wait a little longer to see anything. I went ahead and pitched the sacc after 5 days too ( I'm kinda impatient) but I know some here pitch after just 48 hours so I figure I just split the difference between 2-7 days.
My temps for the first five days were at a steady 83'F.
I did not see any more activity after pitching the sacc and I even wrote Jess at Wyeast and asked whether I should have aerated or done anything different and he said "no". There's just not a lot of sugar for the sacc to eat up so don't expect a lot of action.
Now the waiting begins. I really need to work on my patience...

image-2291506132.jpg
 
Thanks Pastorken! I'll wait a bit longer but I'm going to get another starter going just in case I need to repitch - that way I won't have to wait another week for the starter to finish.

Also, just to be clear Jess advised specifically against aerating when you pitch sach into the beer already fermented with lacto? I was curious about this. Also, did you cool it down before pitching sach?

I'm really hoping there was just a huge lag time and I get home tonight and see some krausening :)
 
Update: just got home and after six days of no (and I mean zero!) activity after pitching the sacc, my airlock is bubbling again about 3-4 times a minute! :)

Julian, glad I could share. I love sours and Berliners a lot and so I'm learning how to make my own now. On top of my Berliner, I have two lambics from the same yeast cake that are about 2 months along.
But it's a learning experience and does take a lot if patience!
I too had a question about re-aerating and, like I said, Jess said he usually does not. It was awesome to hear directly from an expert too! Now I got his email if I have more questions. :)
 
Hey, no need to apoloqize Pastorken. :)

Good to know. FWIW my info came from the pre-boil method (described here: http://seancoates.com/blogs/berliner-weisse and here: http://www.basicbrewing.com/index.php?page=radio).

A little more research seems to indicate that lactic acid fermentation can occur 2 ways: anaerobic, where lactic acid, but not CO2 or alcohol is produced and aerobic, where CO2 and Alcohol, but little or no acid is produced. This may explain the need to wait on the sacchromyces pitch, where by the krausening is the aerobic respiration phase which would be followed by the anaerobic (souring) phase, followed by the finishing off of the attenuation by the sach.

Anyway, I'm glad you guys were able to resolve this with experience! They talked about the video Julian linked on the basic brewing radio podcast I linked to; I'll have to check that out.

fwiw, Julian, I think the bit about the anaerobic fermentation being the souring phase would explain why you want to avoid aerating for the sach pitch: you might attenuate the sugars with the sach and not get the full souring you'd want from the lactobacillis.
 
Acidic and sour beer ewwwwwwww !!!! Lol ... 100f fermentation temperatures !?!?!? Blasphemy !!! That doesn't sound very healthy for any kind of yeasties I've ever heard of lol
 
Great info, KC! Good to know. I love this stuff, makes me feel like a mad scientist! Bwahahahaha
I think I'll try doing a Berliner in the future by doing the souring before the boil, too. Just to see the difference. Its supposed to be a quicker fermentation, and save a few bucks on buying the lacto too.
 
Oh, and I pitched the sacc when it was still at 83F, but let it drop to room temp which is about 70F over the next 3 days. Just FYI
 
Pastorken said:
Oh, and I pitched the sacc when it was still at 83F, but let it drop to room temp which is about 70F over the next 3 days. Just FYI
Click to expand...

Interesting...I'd be more comfortable letting it drop first, but let me know how that turns out!
 
A couple of items that might help:

1) When pitched, lacto goes thru a lag phase where it is getting used to it's new environment. That can take up to 60 hours (can be much shorter too). Once started, Lacto will completely sour the wort in about a day. Every time I have done it, it has soured nicely in 5 days at 95 F; Then I pitch a large amount of sacc.

2) Some Lacto types are homofermentive; that is, it produces 2 molecules of lactic acid from one molecule of sugar and no CO2. I have been using Lactobacilllus Acidophillus successfully, and it gives no indication in the airlock. I think Wyeast 5335 does give off CO2.

3) What are the IBUs of your beer? Lacto doesn't like hops. 10 IBUs is supposedly the max. In testing L. Acidophillus, I have found that it cannot tolerate any hops. I tried to use a standard starter mixture once to get it going (a couple of pellets boiled for a few minutes in a gallon of wort) and got no souring. I have had success with the same Lacto from the same container in batches without hops both before and after that failure. So if you have high hops, more Lacto will do nothing.

4) Not sure what the right way to pitch sacc is. I pitch way too much (2 to 4 times what I would pitch to a standard beer) and also shake to oxygenate. the yeast is going into a very hostile environment (low ph wort), and I think it needs all the help it can get. I let the temperature drop over a day to normal sacc temps before pitching.

5) I always taste the wort before pitching the sacc. I want to make sure it is sour before the sacc goes in, otherwise it may not sour due to the alcohol. With the sweet wort it is difficult to really tell if only slightly sour, but if the Lacto has taken hold, you will be able to tell.
 
Calder said:
A couple of items that might help:

1) When pitched, lacto goes thru a lag phase where it is getting used to it's new environment. That can take up to 60 hours (can be much shorter too). Once started, Lacto will completely sour the wort in about a day. Every time I have done it, it has soured nicely in 5 days at 95 F; Then I pitch a large amount of sacc.

2) Some Lacto types are homofermentive; that is, it produces 2 molecules of lactic acid from one molecule of sugar and no CO2. I have been using Lactobacilllus Acidophillus successfully, and it gives no indication in the airlock. I think Wyeast 5335 does give off CO2.

3) What are the IBUs of your beer? Lacto doesn't like hops. 10 IBUs is supposedly the max. In testing L. Acidophillus, I have found that it cannot tolerate any hops. I tried to use a standard starter mixture once to get it going (a couple of pellets boiled for a few minutes in a gallon of wort) and got no souring. I have had success with the same Lacto from the same container in batches without hops both before and after that failure. So if you have high hops, more Lacto will do nothing.

4) Not sure what the right way to pitch sacc is. I pitch way too much (2 to 4 times what I would pitch to a standard beer) and also shake to oxygenate. the yeast is going into a very hostile environment (low ph wort), and I think it needs all the help it can get. I let the temperature drop over a day to normal sacc temps before pitching.

5) I always taste the wort before pitching the sacc. I want to make sure it is sour before the sacc goes in, otherwise it may not sour due to the alcohol. With the sweet wort it is difficult to really tell if only slightly sour, but if the Lacto has taken hold, you will be able to tell.
Click to expand...


Thanks for your detailed response Calder! To answer your question, my beer was about 1.2IBU. I only used 0.25oz of pellet hops in the boil (10 min boil). Per my software it should be 1.2 IBU.

The lacto I'm using is Wyeast 5335 - no airlock activity yet, and I'm now home. I just took a gravity sample and ph reading. Gravity dropped 2 brix points and ph is 4.85 right now (I didn't take a ph reading before pitching unfortunately). I think it tastes like normal low gravity wort, but it MAY have some mild tart/tang to it. If it's there it's very subtle. Basically if it's doing anything it's doing it slowly or not at all.

Thanks for the info. I'm getting another starter going of lacto, and this one will be placed in my ferm chamber again at 100F, but no stir plate and this time for 5-7 days before repitching. If the current pitch decides it's going to do something in that time then no worries, but otherwise I'll be ready to repitch!
 
julian81 said:
Gravity dropped 2 brix points and ph is 4.85 right now (I didn't take a ph reading before pitching unfortunately). I think it tastes like normal low gravity wort, but it MAY have some mild tart/tang to it. If it's there it's very subtle. Basically if it's doing anything it's doing it slowly or not at all.
Click to expand...

PH = 4.85. How accurate is that? That's almost certainly lower than your original wort. If it is accurate, the Lacto has started working. By this time tomorrow it should be well sour, somewhere around 3.5. If that happens, take it out of your ferm chamber and pitch when temp gets down to a reasonable level.
 
Calder said:
PH = 4.85. How accurate is that? That's almost certainly lower than your original wort. If it is accurate, the Lacto has started working. By this time tomorrow it should be well sour, somewhere around 3.5. If that happens, take it out of your ferm chamber and pitch when temp gets down to a reasonable level.
Click to expand...

Very accurate. I'm using a digital ph meter. I'll check again tomorrow and update this thread. Thanks again!
 
Good luck. Just don't rush pitching the sacc. The low ph will protect the wort, and once the sacc starts producing alcohol, the Lacto will get a lot slower, if not stop. The souring you get before pitching the yeast is about all you are going to get. You probably will not get much below 3.25.

Once started, lacto should double it's population about once per hour (very approximate - no actual data, just what I have gathered from reading), so should sour up quick.

Next time, you probably want to let the starter go longer and check it's ph (some of us can only use taste). My last one went 5 days starter (noticeably sour), 5 days lacto in batch (noticeably sour), pitch yeast. The sweetness of the wort does offset some of the sourness so it is difficult to tell just by taste.
 
Thanks Calder! I've got a positive update!

Update: As of right now the carboy is DEFINITELY showing signs of krausening. There's a thin layer of white foam covering part of the wort surface. This is definitely a good sign. I guess I won't be needing that extra starter. Glad I got it just in case though ;)

Quick question: I've had the beer at 100F since I pitched. Should I keep it at 100F for the duration of the week I plan on fermenting with lacto only, or should I be letting it cool naturally over that week? Or should I just let it cool after it shows signs of fermenting (aka now)? Either way it sounds like I should be cooling it once I pitch sach, but just curious about the lacto temps for the duration of it's fermentation period.

Thanks!
 
I would keep it consistently warm. You should see more reduction in pH than in gravity, let that be your guide.
 
Great info, Calder! Thanks for sharing. I too forgot to check ph before pitching the lacto, but checked it when I pitched the sacc and it was a little below 4 (not as accurate as Julian's, just test strips) :)
I forgot to mention the ph before. and I too used 5335 lacto. I didn't pitch as much yeast though, just a packet of 1007 in a 1/2 liter starter for 24 hours. I guess we'll see what it looks like in a week.
 
Update today: Since I last posted, the krausen got pretty foamy and thick last night (not too large though it was nowhere close to blow off) and was still there this morning. I just got back from work and took another few readings.

Gravity 1.019
ph 4.45

So things are definitely looking good now. I was hoping the ph would have dropped quicker based on Jess Caudill's NHC presentation and berliner experiment at Solera (after 3 days theirs was at 3.62), but we'll see in the next few days where it's at and if I can get back on track. I'm thinking I may need to hold off on the sach pitch until the ph is where I want it.
 
step said:
I would keep it consistently warm. You should see more reduction in pH than in gravity, let that be your guide.
Click to expand...

Thanks, I am keeping it consistently warm. I emailed Jess Caudill and he said to keep it at 90 not 100, so I'm letting it cool a bit and will maintain 90 for the duration, at which point I will cool before pitching sach (no aeration).
 
Update: FG is down to 1.010 and PH = 4.19. Not as much as I'd like it. It does have some tangy/tart quality to it now, but I think I'm going to let it go another week to see if I can get it in the 3.0-3.2 PH range.
 
I've just started 2 6 gallon batches of Berliner Weisse’s. I made 12 gallons of 1.031 OG wort and split it into 2 carboys. In one I pitched Wyeast 3191 Berliner Blend, and in the other Wyeast 5335. The 3191 I am letting run it’s full course at 66-68F. The 5335 I am keeping an eye on, and tasting / measuring pH and then plan on pitching 1007, followed by some Brett Bruxx at bottling.

I pitched both the 3191 and 5335 at around 7:30 Sunday, and this morning there was a very active fermentation in the 5335 carboy.
Anyone have updates on how their beers are progressing? How long (days?, pH?, gravity?) did you guys end up letting the 5335 run before pitching 1007?

These are my first sours, and I am very excited, the waiting is going to kill me.

:mug:
 
Unfortunately, after discussing with Jess Caudill at Wyeast, it seems as though the minimal hops I did use in my Berliner brew, caused the 5335 to stall and have a lot of trouble. My 5335 only carboy stalled out at around ph 4.2-4.3.

Did you use any hops with your brew?
 
I used one ounce of Tettnanger in the mash, none in the boil. Checked it last night - pH 4.3 and 1.020 down from pH 6.0 and 1.031 original. Pitched Sunday night. It was still chugging away this morning, I hope that means more acid production ;)
 
Update: sorry for taking so long but the holidays got busy and I lost some of my notes from this batch. It came out nice, final ABV was 3.5% and IBUs in the 2.2 range. The ph ended up between 3.5-4, but after 4 weeks there was not enough tartness for me at so I added 50ml. of lactic acid at bottling.
It's got a nice tartness and drinks real easy. Very refreshing, almost like an alcoholic Arnold Palmer. Tried it with a shot of grenadine and also blueberry which definitely adds a balance to the tart. I'll make this again soon, but will probably do a different method.

image-3046037409.jpg
 
I need to add my experience to this post. In early December, I brewed something along the lines of a Berliner. No hops, 12 gallons in two carboys, OG of 1.025, pitched pure WLP677 Lactobacillus "Bacteria" after chilling the temperature to about 100F. I left it at room temperature, which slowly dropped over a day or two to about 67-70F.

After 3 weeks it had "fermented" down to 1.006. The fermentation was extremely vigorous. And when I say extremely, I mean, holy F this is more intense than a Sacc ferment... The 1.025 gravity wort blew off (and that almost never happens for me with a temperature controlled Sacc fermentation). When I tested it a couple weeks ago, at 1.006, it was pleasantly tart with a super clean flavor. I pitched Brett, hoping for a little complexity to develop... I have not added any Sacc. Gravity has been stable at 1.006 since then.

Anyways, I tried it again last weekend. I brewed 10 more gallons of the Berliner at about 1.025 and 10 gallons of dark wort at about 1.035. Pitched about 100 mL of slurry from the first batch into each carboy and, again, I have blow off and ridiculous fermentation (granted, it's the same Bacteria culture).

Capture1.JPG


Capture2.JPG
 
berebrando said:
Anyways, I tried it again last weekend. I brewed 10 more gallons of the Berliner at about 1.025 and 10 gallons of dark wort at about 1.035. Pitched about 100 mL of slurry from the first batch into each carboy and, again, I have blow off and ridiculous fermentation (granted, it's the same Bacteria culture).
Click to expand...

Sorry for double posting here, but I wanted to add some photos of the second time around. The "krausen" (for lack of a better term) is super weird. After this stage, it developed huge bubbles, like grapefruit sized, then proceeded to look like the bubbly krausen in my prior post.

Capture3.jpg


Capture4.jpg
 

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