Flameout v. dryhop

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KayaBrew

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I've been a homebrewer for quite a few years now, and I've made hundreds of gallons to date. One of the concepts I still don't have a grasp on is the flameout hop addition. If I understand it correctly, it is essentially an "aroma" addition. Why bother? A lot of that aroma will be lost through the airlock during primary fermentation. If that line of thinking is correct, why not save your flameout addition and dry hop a week to ten days before bottling? What is gained by adding hops at flame out that can't be achieved by dry hopping?
 
The only thing I've come up with (had the same question) is subtle differences make all the difference. full boil = only bitterness, partial boil = bitterness/taste/aroma (amount of each dependent on time in boil, flame out = taste and aroma (probably even a little bitterness since its sitting in near boiling water for Xmin while being cooled), Dry hop = mostly aroma
 
Why indeed. I do a bittering addition and a 15 minute addition for every beer I brew that is to have some kind of a hop profile. If I want aroma I dry hop. There is no way to get that quality with kettle hops so you're just wasting them at that point IMO.
 
Think about dropping a tea bag into cold water; you'd get the essence, but you'd get a heck of a hot more steeping in warm water. That's the thought here. Yes, you lose a lot during fermentation, but not everything. Some of the resiny mouthfeel hoppiness sticks around that completes the dry hop, IMO.

Also, I don't add right at flameout...I add during chilling ~160 degrees....think "warm-steeped hops".
 
Think about dropping a tea bag into cold water; you'd get the essence, but you'd get a heck of a hot more steeping in warm water. That's the thought here. Yes, you lose a lot during fermentation, but not everything. Some of the resiny mouthfeel hoppiness sticks around that completes the dry hop, IMO.

Also, I don't add right at flameout...I add during chilling ~160 degrees....think "warm-steeped hops".

hmmm. I'll have to try that on a repeat recipe and see if I can tell the difference. Makes more sense to me than at boiling temps.
 
What I've noticed is that late hop addictions are less intense in hop aroma but they tend to remain into the beer longer compared with dry hop...
 
Any way someone can sum up the episode? I don't have the resources to listen in right now.

Yep, in short a guy did an experiment: one batch with late hops additions with no dry hops, and the exact recipe with no late additions but added equal hops to dry hopping. Ended up with two good but very different beers. Moral to the story is it still comes back to "do what works and tastes best to you". Also to say that late hops is not necessarily "wasting" your hops, but is going to add different characteristic to your beer than dry hopping alone.
 
As usual from the basicbrewing folks, very long and slow, but also very interesting and informative. Worth a listen when you get a chance.
 
I agree with what has been said, also I think they agreed that the late hopped one retained more flavor over time but the dry hopped version had better aroma that faded more rapidly. Two blind tasters correctly identified the dry hopped beer when told the nature of the experiment.
 
I still use both flameout and dryhops. I'm drinking a beer now loosely based on Jamil's Evil Twin. It's a hopbursted beer, but with no dryhops. It's great, but I'm going to dryhop the other keg. I think both bring something to the table and are not a replacement for each other.

I love to make pasta sauce, so my analogies seem to be all about spaghetti sauce. But this one seems to fit! If you've ever used fresh garlic, and not cooked it in the sauce but added it at the end, as well as used garlic right at the beginning, that's sort of the same thing. It's a great character in the sauce, and using it both ways brings even more flavor. (If you have never added crushed garlic in your sauce at flame out- try it! It's awesome)

It's the same with late hops/dryhops, in that way. They both are aroma hops but both bring something a little different to the table.
 
Does your chilling method matter with a flameout addition?

I would think you would get more utilization out of that addition if you were using a CFC or plate chiller, where the hops get to steep in the near boiling wort, as opposed to using an IC where the temperature of the entire volume is reduced all at once.

Does this question make sense?
 
The chiller type doesn't matter as much as the temperature does. I like adding my flameout additions once I'm chilled to 160 via immersion chiller. At that point I put on the lid, reduce the flow rate and chill the rest of the way over 30 mins or so.

At "near boiling" you'd lose a lot of the more delicate oils that you keep warm, but cooler temps.
 
This is something I've thought a lot on. Like the OP, it seems to me that you're going to lose any aroma from flame out hops during primary fermentation. I know that when I go and transfer my IPAs to a secondary, there is not much in the way of hop aroma, whether I use flame out hops or not. Of course, I don't know if that is because the beer is still not finished or what. Maybe the hops would come through more in the final beer, even without dry hopping.

I recently brewed a batch and took the hops I would have used for flame out, doubled up my 10 and 5 minute additions, then dry hopped with 3 oz. I was fairly pleased with the beer, but it did lack a little bit in the aroma. Could have been that the hops were somewhat old, however. Hard to say.

I would like to do more of a control. Two batches, brewed back to back, same exact recipe, but one that simply omits the flame out hops. I'm always going to dry hop an IPA. So, if I can save the couple ounces of flame out hops, and not really notice a difference, I would like to do that.
 
Don't many of the pro breweries do big hop additions during a whirlpool period after the boil but before actual chilling?
 
This is something I've thought a lot on. Like the OP, it seems to me that you're going to lose any aroma from flame out hops during primary fermentation. I know that when I go and transfer my IPAs to a secondary, there is not much in the way of hop aroma, whether I use flame out hops or not. Of course, I don't know if that is because the beer is still not finished or what. Maybe the hops would come through more in the final beer, even without dry hopping.

I recently brewed a batch and took the hops I would have used for flame out, doubled up my 10 and 5 minute additions, then dry hopped with 3 oz. I was fairly pleased with the beer, but it did lack a little bit in the aroma. Could have been that the hops were somewhat old, however. Hard to say.

I would like to do more of a control. Two batches, brewed back to back, same exact recipe, but one that simply omits the flame out hops. I'm always going to dry hop an IPA. So, if I can save the couple ounces of flame out hops, and not really notice a difference, I would like to do that.

Not trying to talk you out of running some experiments, but might want to take a look at the Basic Brewing pod cast that mikeho mentioned first. But then again, the worse thing that could happen would be to end up with two more batches of beer!

hmmmm........OK, I see you're point, - To the experiment shed!


Basic Brewing just answered this question in the Nov. 29, 2012 episode.
http://www.basicbrewing.com/index.php?page=radio
 
Giving it a listen now, but from what I gather, I think I'm talking about doing something a little bit different. This guy did 2 batches, one with nothing but FWH and then dry hops. The other beer with FWH, then hops at 15, 10, 5, flameout, but no dry hops at all.

I guess to make sure I'm being clear, what I am wanting to know is what the difference would be between 2 batches, both beers with hops at 60, 15, 10, 5, as well as dry hops. But one will ALSO get flame out hops. I am assuming the OP is more or less wondering the same thing. I don't think that there will be a great deal of different honestly. If there isn't much of a difference, then I'd love to save myself those ounces of precious hops.
 
This guy did 2 batches, one with nothing but FWH and then dry hops. The other beer with FWH, then hops at 15, 10, 5, flameout, but no dry hops at all.

yeah, those 2 beers would have to come out different...how can you compare dry hops and flame out additions when you are also adding 15/10/5 minute additions into the mix?
 
Not all of the hop aromas contributed by late hop additions will be lost in fermentation. Some will. But many, if not most, of the commercial beers you drink that aren't IPAs are not dry hopped.

Overall, I think you need more hops to get the same level of aroma with late kettle additions, but a 1oz. addition will contribute some hop aroma and a two ounce addition will contribute a lot. Also, because of chemical reactions that take place when the oils are heated, you will get different aroma because different compounds will be present at the end.

Also, I disagree that dry hopping doesn't add hop flavors. In my experience, it does, and they can be quiet lovely.
 
Hops aren't as simple as a lot of people try to make them. Hoping at flameout will add aroma as as flavor and even a little bit of bitterness. This all depends on how you do it. As mentioned in previous posts there are many different ways of adding hops at flameout. Hops contain many different oils which contribute to taste and aroma. Some of these oils boil off fast while some stick around longer. Two beers with the exact same hops used just in different additions can often produce very different beers. I personally like to add hops at the start of the boil, last 15 min, last 5 minutes and then at flameout. At flameout I kill the flame and add hops. I then vigorously stir the kettle, replace the lid and sit back, relax and have a beer. Typically I let it sit for around 20 min and then start cool down with an immersion chiller. Then I may or may not dry hop later on. Just try to remember hops can produce many different flavored and aromas and not just the two or three described in their description. Experimenting with hops is often fun and can often lead to a favorite flavor/aroma desired.
 
Because the oil profile contributed to the beer via unheated hops and dry hops is totally different. And at the risk of sounding cheeky, if flameout additions didn't do anything, I think brewers would have noticed by now.
 
Don't many of the pro breweries do big hop additions during a whirlpool period after the boil but before actual chilling?

I've heard this too and the whirlpool period can last for hours before the beer is cooled.
 
And at the risk of sounding cheeky, if flameout additions didn't do anything, I think brewers would have noticed by now.

That's a good point. My personal curiosity is if the flame out hops will be noticed in any way, if you also dry hop the beer heavily (as I tend to do for my IPAs). I feel like the dry hops will overshadow whatever you might get from flame out, but I certainly could be wrong. My next two batches of IPA will solve this, for me and my purposes. Unfortunately I am planning a couple of other brews before I get to it.
 
My hunch is that the flameout hops probably give the aroma some "staying power".
 
Another point of reference, after comparing the beer with no flameout hops and the beer with no dry hop, James Spencer (of Basic Brewing) mixed them both together. The point being, there is a reason why we do both flameout and dry hop, it tastes better.
 

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