Fractional freezing

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Brewster2256

Brewster2256

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As always, I was doing random searches and getting hopelessly lost on wikipedia when I came across Fractional freezing - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Now, I've heard of beers being in the excess of ~25% ABV, mainly Utopia by Samuel Adams and seem to have read that fractional freezing was one of their methods of getting the ABV% that high.

Anybody have anymore information on the process or how it could be translated for home brew use? For example, would it be possible to brew a strong ale/barley wine using a high-tolerance yeast, and somehow use fractional freezing to get the percentage beyond the scope of yeast, whilst still retaining the flavor and complexity of a good ale?
 
Never done it myself, but it's the traditional way to make an eisbock (essentially a doppelbock that undergoes fractional freezing in order to bump up its ABV.)

I did a (very) quick search for eisbock on HBT and didn't notice any big discussion threads about making them, but there were a few hits related to people's sigs, so it seems as though some HBTers have some experience with the process anyway.

Maybe a more thorough search here, or a specific question about people's eisbock experiences might get you the info you're looking for :)
 
It's also known as jacking, is a form of distillation, and is illegal in many states. This thread should be locked soon.
 
Is it REALLY that bad to simply discuss these things? I have no interest in doing this whatsoever, I am now aware that there are legal issues, and yet I find the discussion interesting. What's wrong with that?
 
there is a video at basicbrewing.com that james makes a small batch barleywine and then steve lets us all know that the method is actually legal and is not a method of distillation at all, it is a method of concentration therefore we can talk about it and expieriment with it all we want. im going to brew a 1.120 ale then concentrate it and end up with something like 22-23% and age it on some oak.
 
Thanks for posting that Sully. I was about to type the same thing when I scrolled down to your post :)

This freezing method was discussed on a few of the Basic Brewing podcasts. They, also, made the mistake of thinking it was illegal, but were corrected and checked in with the government about it. It is not considered distillation!

I was considering trying this with a gallon of barleywine as well, but eisbock also sounds tempting! Once you've got your batch brewed, the additional process sounds pretty easy.
 
I think Eisbocks are better. Iced Barleywines (of which I have only had a handful) are good but need a lot of aging to overcome the hop presence. The sweetness of the dopplebock base works better in my opinion.

The best method I have heard of so far is to transfer into a corney and let it slowly freeze. Then you transfer out of the keg once the desired amount of ice forms around the sides of the keg.
 
There were two breweries at the Winter Fest that 'accidentally' froze a few kegs of :

A) and well dry hopped IPA About 21% from a 7.5%
B) a barley wine about 30-35%, their sign had skull and crossbones so they didn't realy know for sure

They were both EXCELLENT.

It a post-ferment method.
 
Passive (freeze) distillation is not illegal.

I'm not currently set-up to lager, but I may plan an Eisbock for the winter.
 
this is also refered to as "Fortifying" from what i have read, it is illegal in some states. Since the ice freezes before the rest, you can remove water content. Removing water from an alcoholic beverage is distilation, weither through heat, or ice.
 
Arkador said:
this is also refered to as "Fortifying" from what i have read, it is illegal in some states. Since the ice freezes before the rest, you can remove water content. Removing water from an alcoholic beverage is distilation, weither through heat, or ice.
Click to expand...

Arkador - Sorry to burst you bubble, but Distillation is a method of separating mixtures based on differences in their volatilities in a boiling liquid mixture.

Neither alcohol nor water have anything to do with it. Any two compounds can be distilled off of each other.

Distillation - Wikipedia :rockin:
 
Freeze your beer from http://www.fermentarium.com/content/view/124/58/
Another method to fortify beer is to freeze the beer, and then remove the ice. Technically this falls under “fortification” according to the laws in the United States, and thus is illegal. Other countries might have different laws regarding this (let us know in the comments if you know the laws for your country). We have not heard this rule enforced for a home brewer in the United States; however consider this your warning and our disclaimer. Freeze fortification works because water and alcohol have different freezing points (32 F 0 C and -178 F -117 C respectively). Your freezer is not cold enough to freeze alcohol.

The method of freeze fortification is very simple. Take your fermented wort and place it in a clean, sanitized bucket. Seal the bucket and place in a freezer overnight. Make sure there is room in the bucket for the ice to expand. Do not use glass, as this could have disastrous results if you do not leave enough space. The next morning, remove the block of ice. The remaining liquid is fortified ice beer.

The results of these methods may produce jet fuel initially, and may require extended aging. Just place them away after bottling, and try a bottle until the harsh notes of the alcohol mellow out. If you make a great one let us know, or better yet send us a bottle!
 
Any two compounds can be distilled off of each other.
Click to expand...

AFAIK, not azeotropes. I actually distill at work but it's just for reclaiming solvents so I don't dig into it too much. We have 3 big stills for 3 different solvents...we have to use 20' tall Mol Seive Columns for two of those solvents because you can't get all the water out by just distilling.
 
http://www.legis.state.wi.us/statutes/Stat0125.pdf

125.02 Definitions. Except as otherwise provided, in this
chapter:...

(6) “Fermented malt beverages” means any beverage made by
the alcohol fermentation of an infusion in potable water of barley
malt and hops, with or without unmalted grains or decorticated
and degerminated grains or sugar containing 0.5% or more of
alcohol by volume.



(22) “Wine” means products obtained from the normal alcohol
fermentation of the juice or must of sound, ripe grapes, other
fruits or other agricultural products, imitation wine, compounds
sold as wine, vermouth, cider, perry, mead and sake, if such products
contain not less than 0.5 percent nor more than 21 percent of
alcohol by volume.
Click to expand...


(3) HOMEMADE WINE OR FERMENTED MALT BEVERAGES. The
manufacture of wine or fermented malt beverages of any alcoholic
content by any person at his or her home, farm or place of residence
if the wine or fermented malt beverages is to be consumed
by that person or his or her family and guests, and if the person
manufacturing the wine or fermented malt beverages receives no
compensation.
Click to expand...

US CODE: Title 27,CHAPTER 8—FEDERAL ALCOHOL ADMINISTRATION ACT

27 U.S.C. Chapter 8 §203

(b) It shall be unlawful, except pursuant to a basic permit issued under this subchapter by the Secretary of the Treasury—
(1) to engage in the business of distilling distilled spirits, producing wine, rectifying or blending distilled spirits or wine, or bottling, or warehousing and bottling, distilled spirits; or
(2) for any person so engaged to sell, offer or deliver for sale, contract to sell, or ship, in interstate or foreign commerce, directly or indirectly or through an affiliate, distilled spirits or wine so distilled, produced, rectified, blended, or bottled, or warehoused and bottled.
Click to expand...

27 U.S.C. Chapter 8 §211

(5) The term “distilled spirits” means ethyl alcohol, hydrated oxide of ethyl, spirits of wine, whiskey, rum, brandy, gin, and other distilled spirits, including all dilutions and mixtures thereof, for non-industrial use.

(6) The term “wine” means (1) wine as defined in section 610 and section 617 of the Revenue Act of 1918 as now in force or hereafter amended, and (2) other alcoholic beverages not so defined, but made in the manner of wine, including sparkling and carbonated wine, wine made from condensed grape must, wine made from other agricultural products than the juice of sound, ripe grapes, imitation wine, compounds sold as wine, vermouth, cider, perry and sake; in each instance only if containing not less than 7 per centum and not more than 24 per centum of alcohol by volume, and if for non-industrial use.

(7) The term “malt beverage” means a beverage made by the alcoholic fermentation of an infusion or decoction, or combination of both, in potable brewing water, or malted barley with hops, or their parts, or their products, and with or without other malted cereals, and with or without the addition of unmalted or prepared cereals, other carbohydrates or products prepared therefrom, and with or without the addition of carbon dioxide, and with or without other wholesome products suitable for human food consumption.
Click to expand...

So the line is definitely cloudy... although it seems this would be legal for me or at least extremely gray in Wisconsin. Fractional freezing is not rectifying, and it is not distilling as defined, although it could be argued that it is a form of distillation...
 
Distilling is not clearly defined, but in my opinion, the intent of the law is clearly to inhibit to production of ethanol spirits, not fortified beer.

The laws vary state to state, but in WI we can produce any wine or malt beverage up to any alcohol content legally.

Also, I was not able to find the information on the supposed 200g limit...

I would really like to find the actual law behind all these legality issues as the more I read the more I believe we are continuing the stereotype and many activities thought to be illegal are not.
 
I think that the biggest problem with this method is that there are no laws restricting or allowing it.
 
Laws don't seem to be written to allow behavior, they are written to restrict behavior. If there isn't a law against it then it is legal. If there is no law then there will not be a legal citation to allow it.
 
OK. I stated this thread for legal stuff.

https://www.homebrewtalk.com/f14/homebrewing-legality-state-117719/

I think this is within the law, although the potential for legal action is always present. For example, Wisconsin has an open carry law which the state attorney has backed up, but the police have openly stated that they will detain and arrest anyone open carrying a weapon.

Point being, the enforcers of the law can do as they please and ruin your day, but I believe the courts would hold up the legality of fractional freezing beer for the purposes of making a common beer style (e.g., Eisbock).
 
Here is some text from Chapter 51 of the Internal Revenue Service:

(4) Distiller

The term ``distiller'' includes any person who--
(A) produces distilled spirits from any source or substance,
(B) brews or makes mash, wort, or wash fit for distillation
or for the production of distilled spirits (other than the
making or using of mash, wort, or wash in the authorized
production of wine or beer, or the production of vinegar by
fermentation),
(C) by any process separates alcoholic spirits from any
fermented substance, or
(D) making or keeping mash, wort, or wash, has a still in
his possession or use.
 
phillc said:
Is it REALLY that bad to simply discuss these things? I have no interest in doing this whatsoever, I am now aware that there are legal issues, and yet I find the discussion interesting. What's wrong with that?
Click to expand...

AS much as I think the distlling threads should get closed because it's not what we do here, I think closing a thread because it's an illegal topic wrong.

We don't close threads ever that mention Marijuana.
 
Boerderij_Kabouter said:
OK. I stated this thread for legal stuff.

https://www.homebrewtalk.com/f14/homebrewing-legality-state-117719/

I think this is within the law, although the potential for legal action is always present. For example, Wisconsin has an open carry law which the state attorney has backed up, but the police have openly stated that they will detain and arrest anyone open carrying a weapon.

Point being, the enforcers of the law can do as they please and ruin your day, but I believe the courts would hold up the legality of fractional freezing beer for the purposes of making a common beer style (e.g., Eisbock).
Click to expand...

How can they do this? Could you not just sue imediataley for wrongful arrest?
 
See that is the kicker. You are not separating alcoholic spirits from any fermented substance, you are separating water.

That's the big difference. At the end of the process you are left with water, and beer. Not any distilled or alcoholic spirit.

Great work on the citation. I think I am appeased that this process is legal.
 
Boerderij_Kabouter said:
See that is the kicker. You are not separating alcoholic spirits from any fermented substance, you are separating water.

That's the big difference. At the end of the process you are left with water, and beer. Not any distilled or alcoholic spirit.

Great work on the citation. I think I am appeased that this process is legal.
Click to expand...

Sir, I believe you are correct. However, the kicker would be if there were an actual law preventing this process. So far I have seen nothing like that in any of the federal information on spirits.

Plus, wikipedia (yeah, I know, but it's was handy) claims spirits have to be 20% ABV or higher, so you would be safe up to that point regardless.
 
wow interesting legal debate here. since we seem to be reaching a consensus "legal" opinion, can someone provide a simple step by step guide? I've got: brew wort and ferment until complete, transfer to a corny and allow to freeze.. partially?
 
The freezing of the beer is not illegal, nor is the heating of beer or wine to evaporate the alcohol. The separation is fine until you collect the alcohol on it's own (mostly on it's own anyway).

Several articles I've read mentioned the concentrated fusel alcohols that result. However, you are still drinking the same AMOUNT of fusel alcohols, just a higher concentration at a time.
 
I just thought of another thing.

If a liquor store can sell an Eis Beer as beer, and not as a spirit then it is not considered a spirituous liquor. Liquor has a different tax rate and licensing procedure to be able to sell it than beer and wines do.
 
SnickASaurusRex said:
I just thought of another thing.

If a liquor store can sell an Eis Beer as beer, and not as a spirit then it is not considered a spirituous liquor. Liquor has a different tax rate and licensing procedure to be able to sell it than beer and wines do.
Click to expand...

Depends on the state and their laws. In Wisconsin, beer is a malt and hops beverage of any alcohol content. Other states have a limit on what can be called beer and have different laws.

I think Jamil has a good step by step on Ice beer....
 
So in a state with a cap on alcohol content, say 6%, could a liquor store sell a 7% beer as a spirit? If not, could they sell an Ice Beer as liquor because it went through this freeze process. I think answering this type of question is the key to determining what catagory this product belongs in.
 
SnickASaurusRex said:
I just thought of another thing.

If a liquor store can sell an Eis Beer as beer, and not as a spirit then it is not considered a spirituous liquor. Liquor has a different tax rate and licensing procedure to be able to sell it than beer and wines do.
Click to expand...

I believe that Eis Beer requires a special permit for commercial production. I just read that. not sure of the source now, so take it for what it's worth.

Also, the very definition of what is a "spirit" is at the heart of this conversation. I think that in 2008 the ABV was set at 35%. But even at 20%, that is dam high for a beer. So I don't see why it is a big deal to make Eis Beer. You're never going to get that concentration of alcohol by freeze Distillation. The alcohol is somewhat embedded in the ice crystals, or it would be a process that requires constant care and vigilance.
 
Sorry to hijack the legal discussion, but I have a question about the process. Would there be any way to naturally carb something like this if your ABV is that high?
 
On a lighter note: I'm just waiting for the day when a cop shows up with a warrant to search my freezer.
 

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