Pannepot (Old Fisherman's Ale) Clone Thread

I simply love this thread.
Due to time zone, I'll have to wake up very early tomorrow in order to read what's new about the Pannepot.
Then brew.
Tall Yotie, thanks for your post, I'll go with choccolate.
A curiosity: here I find Pannepot without problems, but the lable is completely dumb. It only expose "Brewed with spices".

Best of luck with the brew when you do it!

There is an image of an older label that states the ingredients, and we used that as a resource. No idea on amounts, and the FG/OG numbers that they gave didn't really line up with the ABV that was printed. In the earlier pages of this thread I believe one of us posted the image.

Let us know how the brew turns out!

Brewed yesterday, with a problem probably due to the sparging rate.
I had 1080 as OG pre boil and 1095 as OG.
Both worth were 10 pts below what I expected, I think I made too much sparge.

giorgione said:

Brewed yesterday, with a problem probably due to the sparging rate.
I had 1080 as OG pre boil and 1095 as OG.
Both worth were 10 pts below what I expected, I think I made too much sparge.

Click to expand...

1st taste after 2 months: bad.
I mean, the beer is good itself, but it is too far from Pannepot.
Wrong colour: too trasparent
Wrong texture: not enaugh mouth consistency
Wrong palate: too sickening
I definitely abused of sparging and I did not boiled enaugh: I should have boiled for 100'.
It's like the difference between trappistes rochefort 8 and trappistes rochefort 10...

I would agree that the clone I brewed up is a bit clearer than a standard Pannepot, and isn't as "thick", but the flavors are there. Spices a bit stronger but it has settled out with aging. As for "too sickening", do you mean sickeningly sweet?

So, what are the current thoughts, recipe updates, etc on this brew. I've looked at the recipe posted in the recipe section of the CSI site as well - the spicing is a bit different (maybe due to the tea idea instead of just putting spices in the boil?).
This is my next brew post easter. Thought I'd take everything learned up 'til now and see what we get.

Prost.....

Anybody who brewed the last iteration of this recipe have any updates? Is the Candi Syrup Inc D180 the one to use?

I will be brewing this in a few days. I bought all of my ingredients in keeping with the Mad Fermentationist's recipe. I have some of the ingredients needed for the substitutions I read about in this thread. Can anyone say what they think may be the most important thing to add/subtract/change from the original recipe?

I would say the spicing. Look at what CSI and myself used (check out candysyrup.com for their most recent recipe version). The Mad Ferm. recipe was a bit off on spicing in my opinion. I know that my recipe turned out absolutely amazing (still have a dozen bottles from original batch), but follow whatever recipe you wish. But spices, spices are the key.

Mashing right now for a half batch. Generally I blended CSI and Tall Yotie's recipes with updated spice levels per the tasting notes. The significant liberty I'll be taking is substituting WLP670 American Farmhouse yeast for the T58, and therefore subbed flaked oats for the flaked maize for a Brett treat. I know it won't be a clone, but I've never had the original anyways. After reading through this thread last year, I had wanted to brew it. And I was also wanting to brew a funky barley wine, winter warmer, or Belgian dark strong for this winter which is why I had picked up the yeast. So I decided to tackle both at once.

Target 0G: 23.9P
Target Efficiency: 75%
Volume at pitching: 10.22L (2.7gal)

8 lb Belgian Pilsen Malt 82.6 %
4 oz Belgian Special B 2.6 %
2 oz US Flaked Oats 1.3 %
2 oz Belgian Kiln Coffee Malt 1.3 %
2oz UK Pale Chocolate Malt 1.3%
1oz German Carafa II 0.6 %
8oz Sugar - D-90 Candi Syrup 5.2 %
8oz Sugar - D-180 Candi Syrup 5.2 %

Estimated IBU: 27
27g Bramling Cross 6.3% AA at 45 min
14g Hallertau 3.7 at 10 min

Spice tea
2g Coriander Seed
1g Cinnamon stick
1g Thyme
2g Bitter Orange Peel

Yeast: WLP670 American Farmhouse

Looks good, let us know how it goes!

I am gong to brew this up again very soon, and I am looking at reducing my pilsner malt and upping the flaked maize as the body of my version is a bit heavy for the actual beer. Otherwise the taste seems pretty solid. And it is damned tasty as is, so not planning on making many more changes.

Subscribing

I took a small sample today. SG is 3.5P (assuming dodgy refractometer corrections are correct) which translates to 83% attenuation with the WLP670 from the 20.9P OG a month ago. A pellicle never formed, but I had purged the carboy with CO2 and I've left it alone until today. The high attenuation gives me confidence the Brett in the blend has been at work.

It's the color of cola. Very clear. The aroma is of sweet wort with some alcohol; reminds me a bit of port, but lacking any fruit. The flavor is complex. I only had about a 1.5 ounce sample, so I couldn't ruminate on it too much. I'll admit to not being good with taste descriptors. The mouthfeel is a bit slick or oily in the mid-tongue, but then quickly finishes relatively dry inviting a follow-up (unfortunately I only had 3 stingy sips worth). If someone had given me a glass, I would have been adamant that rye was involved due to the spiciness and mouthfeel. I don't think anyone could identify the herbs or spices; none stand out. There is a warming heat to it, balanced - not burning. Currently there is no funkiness from the Brett. Any flavor contribution from it is melding nicely with the rest. Taste again draws more connection to a fortified wine like port or sherry than to beer. I have a hard time imagining it cool or carb'd. I think I'd like it as is in a snifter, but I'll follow through with the rest. I'm trying to get a case empty Belgian 330mL bottles from a local Belgian themed brasserie to bottle it up. I'd definitely drink it now, but I'll also try to meter my consumption and only have one or two a month to make it last through the year. It's a snifter drink.

Quaker, thanks for the update.

I noticed as well that the spices really didn't come through for me. I am going to brew this again very shortly (this week), and looking at it two ways; cut the spices as it doesn't seem to add anything, or add more to get them to come through. For me the body needed a bit more fullness to calm the alcohol and sweetness.

Which recipe variant did you use?

Recipe is just a few posts back.

Leaving spices out might be interesting and quite safe. You could easily make a tea afterwards and add it in if you it noticeably missing in the flavor.

I feel it adds something, it's just not an obvious flavor.

So I am going to brew this beer this upcoming weekend. My thoughts on changing my original recipe is to double all the specialty grains (more intense flavors, better body). Same spices. The Flaked Maize is supposed to give a lighter body, so not certain if I want to up that as body is one if the issues.

My wife like the current beer, but it is a bit too sweet for me to enjoy. Flavor is good, but is almost sickeningly sweet for me. Maybe the bigger body would help.

Thoughts on deviating from the base grains to fix the body issue? Carapils perhaps?

I think adding more body would make it even more cloying, as opposed to coming into balance with the sweetness. I think you'd want to dry it out more, so doubling the corn with the others may be the right direction. Ignoring your doubling the specialty plan, I would simply try to boost attenuation by lowering the mash temp and adding the candi sugar late in fermentation.

Without looking back through the thread, I think I recall the two of you original brewers used different yeast quantities; 2 packs vs 4 packs. If you had used the lower amount, upping the pitch rate may also help.

Mine is definitely not cloying due to the Brett dropping the FG.

My 2 cents.

Anyone still working on nailing this one? Had my first Pannepot last weekend, 2011 vintage. Makes Rochefort 10 seem like a mediocre beer.

Ordering Bramling Cross, Hallertau MF, and D-180 today. Need some coffee malt and some t-58 from my LHBS and I should have everything. First attempt at a clone and looking forward to having an excuse to buy more Pannepot. I got the bottle I had in Ohio and I'm hoping my friend who lives there will get the other 3 or 4 the store had on the shelf for me. At $7.50 a bottle, I'll be living large if I can make 5 gallons of similar beer for under $40.

Recently did another batch, hit my numbers. My wife likes it quite a bit, but it lacks the darkness/thickness from the real deal. Close, but not quite there. I think the spices are a bit strong in my version though. FG is fine if a little high, it just has a bit of sharpness from the spices and alcohol that play off of each other. Still damned tasty, just not quite what I would call a Panneopt. I am thinking of adjusting up the percentage of the specialty grains to amplify those flavors.

CSI any reviews on your latest version on the website? I am looking to brew that soon, and curious if there is anything you have to say about the recipe.

thanks,

Ryan

Oophaga said:

CSI any reviews on your latest version on the website? I am looking to brew that soon, and curious if there is anything you have to say about the recipe.

thanks,

Ryan

Click to expand...

We switched over to the Pannepot GR (Gran Reserva) about a year ago. Tall_Yotie has some great advice on the OFA (Pannepot Old Fisherman's Ale).

We've been trialing the GR of late with good results. The key to both Pannepot's is a balanced heavy mouth-feel with a comparatively sweet palate, that is, for a high gravity ale. The GR is aged on light oak, (fairly sure it is on old Chardonnay barrels, not old whisky barrels). This is a detail not found in our currently posted PGR recipe (yet). I'll try to get the updates out soon.

Awesome, the primary difference between the GR and the regular is the oak aging correct? So if I wanted to take a stab at he base recipe would you say the one on the site is fairly close? Any changes you'd recommend? I tend to trust your input . The Chimay clone is still getting so much more improvement as it ages. Luckily I still have plenty to see how it goes, I exhibited my best restraint yet.

Oophaga said:

Awesome, the primary difference between the GR and the regular is the oak aging correct? So if I wanted to take a stab at he base recipe would you say the one on the site is fairly close? Any changes you'd recommend? I tend to trust your input . The Chimay clone is still getting so much more improvement as it ages. Luckily I still have plenty to see how it goes, I exhibited my best restraint yet.

Click to expand...

Yes, the base GR recipe on the site is very good. I would try and keep the temp rise to high krausen at or under 72F. (Using 400+ billion cells in high gravity wort will create a lot of metabolic heat).

A lightly toasted white oak soaked and dried (repeatedly) a few days in and out of a dry chardonnay will help to replicate a little of the barrel aging.

subscibed to this one...
I was wondering what to do with T-58

chrisdb said:

subscibed to this one...
I was wondering what to do with T-58

Click to expand...

T-58 is the Chimay strain, same as wlp 500 or wy1214.

chrisdb said:

subscibed to this one...
I was wondering what to do with T-58

Click to expand...

T-58 is the yeast claimed to be in use by De Struise so this is the yeast used in this clone. The Fermentis recommendations for sterile creaming and pitching are on the Fermentis site (if I understood the question correctly).

It may be interesting to test another similar Belgian strain on the GR or OFA. T-58 currently falls somewhere between WLP500 and WLP550 (phenolic/spicy). T-58 was originally claimed to have been taken from the Chimay strain, (very possible). It is currently a bit too removed in ester profile to match the Chimay yeast profile...possibly due to natural variation over time.

thanks..
I sometimes want to brew on the spur of the moment and dry yeast makes that more possible. If T-58 works well enough for high gravity belgian ales I could keep some on hand for a spontaneous brew day.
My LHBS has the CSI D-45 and D-90 on the shelf, but has to order the D180 for me.
I like to buy in bulk when I can but we weren't sure about the shelf life of an opened 50# container of syrup. Any thoughts or suggestions on shelf life and storage would be useful, as would a retail package that was somewhere in between the 1# and the 50#....maybe something in the 10# range.

chrisdb said:

thanks..
I sometimes want to brew on the spur of the moment and dry yeast makes that more possible. If T-58 works well enough for high gravity belgian ales I could keep some on hand for a spontaneous brew day.
My LHBS has the CSI D-45 and D-90 on the shelf, but has to order the D180 for me.
I like to buy in bulk when I can but we weren't sure about the shelf life of an opened 50# container of syrup. Any thoughts or suggestions on shelf life and storage would be useful, as would a retail package that was somewhere in between the 1# and the 50#....maybe something in the 10# range.

Click to expand...

Great suggestions. The 50# pails have a shelf life of 6 months at room temp. If you're not a craft brewer you can break it up into 5 (1 gal) containers and freeze them. You can keep it in the freezer and it will last for over a 1 year. The syrup will rise in viscosity but will not freeze.

Hey y'all,

I've been studying the last 100 or so posts to this thread and am brewing my own version this weekend. It is a hybrid of Yotie and CSI's recipes, along with one I found at Candi Sugars website: http://www.candisyrup.com/uploads/6/0/3/5/6035776/pannepot_gran_reserva_-_variation_003x.pdf

I plan to brew this Sunday and would love any pre-brew feedback before then. I'll keep the list updated on my progress!

Here is my recipe:

Batch Size (Gal): 5.50
OG: 1.098
FG: 1.026
ABV: 9.1%
IBU: 30.0
Brewhouse Efficiency: 75 %
Wort Boil Time: 90 Minutes

Grain/Sugar
--------------
14 lbs. Belgian Pilsner
1.0 lbs. Special B
2.0 lbs. Flaked Corn
0.125 lbs. Carafa II
0.125 lbs. Chocolate Malt
0.125 lbs. Pale Chocolate Malt
1.0 lbs. D-180 Candi Syrup
1.0 lbs. Brun Foncé soft candi sugar

Hops
------
2.00 oz. Kent Goldings @ 45 min.
1.00 oz. Hallertau @ 15 min.

Spice Tea in 8oz water, 2 min boil, added to fermenter at yeast pitching
--------
3.00 gm Coriander Seed
5.00 gm Fresh Orange Zest
1.00 gm Cinnamon
3.00 gm FRESH Thyme (increased for fresh herbs and to preserve flavor longterm)

Yeast
-----
T-58

Mash Schedule
-------------
90 min @ 156F
1.5 qt/lb; 6.52 gallons approx
2.78 gallons approx for sparging @170


Fermentation Schedule
-------------
Pitch at 65F
65-70 F, 4-5 day ramp
Rack to secondary, 65° F, 2 weeks
50° F, 6 weeks
Bottle
Condition cold for 2 months

Looks good to me! Really the thing I needed to change was the heaviness of the beer. It came out in the end far more on the cherry notes than I wanted, though is still very delicious. I see you are in Redwood City; I am in San Jose / Campbell area, once you have then ready want to swap a bottle to compare note?

Tall_Yotie said:

Looks good to me! Really the thing I needed to change was the heaviness of the beer. It came out in the end far more on the cherry notes than I wanted, though is still very delicious. I see you are in Redwood City; I am in San Jose / Campbell area, once you have then ready want to swap a bottle to compare note?

Click to expand...

Hey, Yotie: I'd DEFINITELY be up for a bottle trade. Thanks for the input, too. The biggest difference I came across in recipes is the flaked maize -- I'm used TWO POUNDS vs. your 1/4 lb. This is based off of the Candi Syrup recipe, and given that your only complaint with your beer was a thin body, I figure it's worth a shot.

I'll keep you posted.
-Ryan

Sounds good! Also, watch your fermentation temps. If I recall correctly, I let mine do the quick natural rise to high that you want for quads, but it came off as too hot on the nose.

Roger that. We just finished testing our new temp controller (we call it mission control) and we are able to hold to +/- 1 degree F.

rconnoll said:

Roger that. We just finished testing our new temp controller (we call it mission control) and we are able to hold to +/- 1 degree F.

Click to expand...

I haven't tried to clone Pannepot (yet) but I've used t-58 in BDSA/Quads and I'd suggest starting at 64 and holding it there for 48hrs or so.

rconnoll said:

Hey y'all,

I've been studying the last 100 or so posts to this thread and am brewing my own version this weekend. It is a hybrid of Yotie and CSI's recipes, along with one I found at Candi Sugars website: http://www.candisyrup.com/uploads/6/0/3/5/6035776/pannepot_gran_reserva_-_variation_003x.pdf

I plan to brew this Sunday and would love any pre-brew feedback before then. I'll keep the list updated on my progress!

Here is my recipe:

Batch Size (Gal): 5.50
OG: 1.098
FG: 1.026
ABV: 9.1%
IBU: 30.0
Brewhouse Efficiency: 75 %
Wort Boil Time: 90 Minutes

Grain/Sugar
--------------
14 lbs. Belgian Pilsner
1.0 lbs. Special B
2.0 lbs. Flaked Corn
0.125 lbs. Carafa II
0.125 lbs. Chocolate Malt
0.125 lbs. Pale Chocolate Malt
1.0 lbs. D-180 Candi Syrup
1.0 lbs. Brun Foncé soft candi sugar

Hops
------
2.00 oz. Kent Goldings @ 45 min.
1.00 oz. Hallertau @ 15 min.

Spice Tea in 8oz water, 2 min boil, added to fermenter at yeast pitching
--------
3.00 gm Coriander Seed
5.00 gm Fresh Orange Zest
1.00 gm Cinnamon
3.00 gm FRESH Thyme (increased for fresh herbs and to preserve flavor longterm)

Yeast
-----
T-58

Mash Schedule
-------------
90 min @ 156F
1.5 qt/lb; 6.52 gallons approx
2.78 gallons approx for sparging @170


Fermentation Schedule
-------------
Pitch at 65F
65-70 F, 4-5 day ramp
Rack to secondary, 65° F, 2 weeks
50° F, 6 weeks
Bottle
Condition cold for 2 months

Click to expand...

------------


Just realized I wasn't logged into the correct account when I posted this recipe. THIS is the right account. Time to deactivate my old free account...

So I just had this beer at a small little tasting - and most of us picked out a distinct cola note in the 2011 bottle we had. I'm a little surprised it hasn't been mentioned here before but maybe we were all convincing ourselves it was there. I'm guessing it likely came from the spices pairing with the dark fruits/sugar flavors prevalent in this beer.

A further look into the spicing for cola shows a few similarities: coriander, cinnamon, orange zest...lavender (sometimes substituted for thyme) and vanilla (cited as being in the Reserva http://web.archive.org/web/20110630...rdhoek.com//eng/images/stories/pnpreserva.jpg)...which I'm not sure is a different base recipe.

I'm really wanting to come up with a clone recipe for this beer!

skibb said:

So I just had this beer at a small little tasting - and most of us picked out a distinct cola note in the 2011 bottle we had. I'm a little surprised it hasn't been mentioned here before but maybe we were all convincing ourselves it was there. I'm guessing it likely came from the spices pairing with the dark fruits/sugar flavors prevalent in this beer.

A further look into the spicing for cola shows a few similarities: coriander, cinnamon, orange zest...lavender (sometimes substituted for thyme) and vanilla (cited as being in the Reserva http://web.archive.org/web/20110630...rdhoek.com//eng/images/stories/pnpreserva.jpg)...which I'm not sure is a different base recipe.

I'm really wanting to come up with a clone recipe for this beer!

Click to expand...

Interesting observation. The spice contribution + candi syrup make sense.

So two things from last night...

I was drinking Lion Stout, and this beer got me thinking back on Pannepot - it's very dark, not too sweet, and very mildly roasty - there are no clones for this beer our there, but being an FES, known people like Kris England speculate that a fair portion of this beer's fermentables come from maize/sugar additions, and also contribute to some color as well (i.e. brewers caramel). Quite a similar structure to Pannepot's grist. Kris talks about this in his emails with Revvy in this thread: https://www.homebrewtalk.com/f12/anyone-have-real-lions-stout-clone-200557/

Now here's where it gets more interesting - while looking up interviews of De Struisse/Urbain I came across this one:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=HHjX8_dMi4M

In the Pannepot section (4:00 mark) he describes Pannepot as a marriage between a Belgian Dark Strong and a 'soft' Foreign Extra Stout!

This makes me think that perhaps the recipes in this thread may be a bit shy on the roasted malts for this beer - I'm thinking they may likely be slightly higher than the 1-2% that are in these recipes. Yeti describes that his beer doesn't quite have the darkness and flavor associated with it and this may be a contributing reason. I wouldn't go overboard on the roast, but maybe bump it up a percentage or two - there still should be enough body and residual sweetness to have it come off more cocoa in flavor rather than roasty...at least that is what I'm thinking...

skibb said:

So two things from last night...

I was drinking Lion Stout, and this beer got me thinking back on Pannepot - it's very dark, not too sweet, and very mildly roasty - there are no clones for this beer our there, but being an FES, known people like Kris England speculate that a fair portion of this beer's fermentables come from maize/sugar additions, and also contribute to some color as well (i.e. brewers caramel). Quite a similar structure to Pannepot's grist. Kris talks about this in his emails with Revvy in this thread: https://www.homebrewtalk.com/f12/anyone-have-real-lions-stout-clone-200557/

Now here's where it gets more interesting - while looking up interviews of De Struisse/Urbain I came across this one:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=HHjX8_dMi4M

In the Pannepot section (4:00 mark) he describes Pannepot as a marriage between a Belgian Dark Strong and a 'soft' Foreign Extra Stout!

This makes me think that perhaps the recipes in this thread may be a bit shy on the roasted malts for this beer - I'm thinking they may likely be slightly higher than the 1-2% that are in these recipes. Yeti describes that his beer doesn't quite have the darkness and flavor associated with it and this may be a contributing reason. I wouldn't go overboard on the roast, but maybe bump it up a percentage or two - there still should be enough body and residual sweetness to have it come off more cocoa in flavor rather than roasty...at least that is what I'm thinking...

Click to expand...

...having had a few OFA's I can objectively say that OFA does not have much palatable dark malt.

I've read through this entire thread and appreciate all the very helpful comments. Are there any final recommendations to changes to the recipes based on final results? Thank you.