wyeast 3711 temp schedule

Hey guys,

I've never used this yeast before and have very limited experience with belgian and saison yeasts in general. Any tips on ferm temps with this strain for your average 1.05-1.06 beer?

I was going to go with something like 65 for first 3 days, 68-70 for 3 days, then upper 70s for a week or so? No idea here and just guessing based off what I've read.

Thanks for the help!

A pretty standard schedule is to pitch at 68 and raise the temperature over the course of active fermentation, a couple degrees a day til you are in the upper 70s/low 80s.

That being said, this is my go-to saison yeast, and I usually pitch at 68 and just let it free-rise in whatever ambient temperature I've got (Right now it's about 75 in my house). I have always been pleased with the results.

The real rule of thumb is, if you want fruity esters, ramp up the temp (especially in the beginning days of active fermentation); if you want a cleaner profile, ferment on the lower end of the spectrum.

what kmos said.

i pitched at 68 and held at 68-70 for two days, then 70-72 for two days, then ramped up to 81 and held it there for a week. i'm going to let it sit at ambient temp (68-70) for a few weeks - until such time as i get inspired to bottle or i need the fermenter for something else.

Great timing, I just logged in to post this same question. I actually do not have a heater setup. This is the first day of fermenation on my Saison and the temp is at 70F. Is it worth trying to rig up a heater or let it ferment at 70?

kevinb said:

Great timing, I just logged in to post this same question. I actually do not have a heater setup. This is the first day of fermenation on my Saison and the temp is at 70F. Is it worth trying to rig up a heater or let it ferment at 70?

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I have a fermwrap with a johnson controller that I use in the cooler months, but you might just wrap some blankets or sleeping backs around it. It will heat itself up another 5 degrees or so just through the process of active fermentation; hopefully with the insulation, you can keep that heat in there.

I've found that 3711 does great at lower than normal saison temps. I run it at 62 all the way through and love the results.

kevinb - 3711 should do fine at 70*F. it might finish a few points higher than it would have with heat. you will also end up with fewer esters which are in part responsible for traditional saison taste, but again the difference shouldn't be huge. on the reverse, lower temps should result in spicier/earthier/more phenolic beer. at some point maybe you'll acquire a source of heat and you can compare both versions.

the blanket/sleeping bag idea should work, but you run the risk of letting the brew warm up a little on the early side. based on everything i've read, it's best to ramp up after the peak of fermentation. however it's the peak that produces the most heat, so slapping a blanket on there means that you heat a little earlier than ideal. overall i'd still put a blanket on, since it's better to heat early than not at all (disclaimer: i like my saisons estery).

i use a brew belt, but if i had to do it again i'd get a fermwrap heater. instead of a controller, i use a cheap timer like this one: http://www.homedepot.com/h_d1/N-5yc1v/R-100685881/h_d2/ProductDisplay?catalogId=10053#.UGC6065TDTc. for $15 you can get a digital one. with a bit of experience i have figured out how often to turn the best on and off to maintain a given temperature. for example, for the saison i had the brew belt on non-stop for about 20 hours to get the carboy up to 80*, thereafter i switched to 30 mins on/30 mins off to maintain that temp. obviously this isn't high precision, but it's good enough for me.

edit: just found a digital one for $7 - http://www.homedepot.com/Electrical...2/ProductDisplay?catalogId=10053#.UGC8ia5TDTc - if it can be programmed to turn on & off multiple times a day, i'm getting one.

Sweetcell - great feedback.

What do you think about the idea of using a swampcooler with an acquarium heater in it? I was thinking about getting one and ramping the swanp temp up.

Also, How vigorous of a fermenation should I expect? After 24 houts, I only have a small layer of krausen and I am getting about one bubble per second. I heard this yeast typically takes off pretty fast. I have only about 3 gallon of wort in a 6 gallon carboy. Thanks for the help.

Am I the only one who uses it at more "normal" temps? Have any of you ever tried that?

Denny said:

Am I the only one who uses it at more "normal" temps? Have any of you ever tried that?

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I've started just putting my batches with 3711 in my basement, no water bath. Temps are usually between 62-67*F down there depending on the time of year. A lot easier than trying to ramp temperatures up, yet it still finishes super dry and has a great fermentation character.

kevinb said:

What do you think about the idea of using a swampcooler with an acquarium heater in it? I was thinking about getting one and ramping the swanp temp up.

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should work great. never done it myself but i know others swear by the technique.

kevinb said:

Also, How vigorous of a fermenation should I expect? After 24 houts, I only have a small layer of krausen and I am getting about one bubble per second. I heard this yeast typically takes off pretty fast. I have only about 3 gallon of wort in a 6 gallon carboy. Thanks for the help.

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personally i got a solid inch of krausen and maybe 2 bubbles per second at peak, but every brew is different. i oxygenated with an aquarium pump two or three times during the first 24 hours so i might have had a bigger yeast population. differences could also be due to amount and types of sugars, nutrients, temp changes, etc. who knows! as long as you attenuate well and make a tasty beer, no need to worry about it

Denny said:

Am I the only one who uses it at more "normal" temps? Have any of you ever tried that?

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nope, not yet. i've only ever done one batch with the temp ramp, but i'm planning on washing the yeast and doing another batch at "ambient" temps. i'll let you know how it goes. i'd expect the the second version to be a little bit spicier & a little less fruity - TBD.

I will post my results. You have me curious. I plan to insulate with blanets etc and let the fermenation go. It is running between 70 - 72 degrees.

It kinda depends what flavors you want to get out of it .... As Denny said above normal temps will be just fine and I have brewed 3711 fine at 68 degrees fahrenheit but, I have also ramped up to the low 80's over the course of a week and that was great too with lots of "spice" to it. That's the cool thing about saison yeast is that they enjoy a wide swing of temps with no "off flavors. Another cool thing about 3711 over lets say 565 is it has a lower risk of getting stuck as well as having a quicker finishing time as a general rule.

I really prefer phenolics to fruitiness and I find of I run 3711 at 62F all the way through I get the nice phenolic character without over the top fruitiness.

Denny said:

I really prefer phenolics to fruitiness and I find of I run 3711 at 62F all the way through I get the nice phenolic character without over the top fruitiness.

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Yep gonna try that, I ramped to 80 by day 2 and it's not what I wanted. Tastes like 530 (my house Belgian strain) but even fruitier, no subtlety whatsoever.

IMO 3711 is its own yeast strain and is a super attenuator. It chews through sugars like none other outside of brett so temps really aren't a concern as it will attenuate at low ale or high ale temps. It gets down to what character do you want to push. I prefer the more phenolic character of the mid 60s.

So I read contradicting reports on fruit vs spice. Some people seem to think that high temps equals fruit and others say high temp equals spice. Which one is it? I ran my first saison with 3711 in the mid 60s and it ended up tasting very subtle fruit and little to no spice... More like a typical belgian strain.

tagz said:

So I read contradicting reports on fruit vs spice. Some people seem to think that high temps equals fruit and others say high temp equals spice. Which one is it? I ran my first saison with 3711 in the mid 60s and it ended up tasting very subtle fruit and little to no spice... More like a typical belgian strain.

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High temp equals fruit. For sure.

rexbanner said:

high temp equals fruit. For sure.

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+1.060!

Is there any need to worry about fusels if I start off at 70? I have temp control.

tagz said:

Is there any need to worry about fusels if I start off at 70? I have temp control.

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I don't believe you will produce any fussel alcohol at 70 degrees no.....

Aschecte said:

I don't believe you will produce any fussel alcohol at 70 degrees no.....

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Depends on the gravity. I can't speak for 3711 but 3787 which is a similar yeast can produce fusel alcohol if you make a really high gravity beer and start it at 70...I have had it happen a few times. If the gravity is over 1.065, start it really cold for the first day before raising it.

rexbanner said:

Depends on the gravity. I can't speak for 3711 but 3787 which is a similar yeast can produce fusel alcohol if you make a really high gravity beer and start it at 70...I have had it happen a few times. If the gravity is over 1.065, start it really cold for the first day before raising it.

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I never really took that into consideration ..... Always just thought if you pitched the proper rate of yeast for the gravity of the beer and kept within the strains guidlines for temp you would be ok. Guess I learned something new today and for that matter you have expierence with a similar strain so my vote is go with your advice.

Aschecte said:

I never really took that into consideration ..... Always just thought if you pitched the proper rate of yeast for the gravity of the beer and kept within the strains guidlines for temp you would be ok. Guess I learned something new today and for that matter you have expierence with a similar strain so my vote is go with your advice.

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Yeah, I've brewed a lotttttt with 3787, like prob 40 or so batches. Pretty much know that strain inside and out. I've only brewed with 3711 twice, but once was at 62, and the other was at 80. It seems pretty similar to 3787 in terms of the flavor it throws out.

I'll be using this strain for the first time this weekend and plan to pitch at about 64 and let it get no warmer than 68 for the first 3 days... then it can do whatever it wants for the following 8 days. I was pleased to see folks (Denny) actually prefer lower temps for this yeast, as it'll be sharing space with my Tiny Bottom Pale Ale that certainly does not favor warmer temps. Cheers!

Brulosopher said:

I was pleased to see folks (Denny) actually prefer lower temps for this yeast, as it'll be sharing space with my Tiny Bottom Pale Ale that certainly does not favor warmer temps. Cheers!

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one solution is to not have it share space - once your 3 days of temp control are done, remove the 3711 beer from the fermentation chamber and let it get a little warmer in a closet, behind the couch, dark corner of the bathroom, wrapped in a t-shirt in the living room, etc.

Would be fun to do a split batch - one kept at 68F and one allowed to rise to 85F. My inkling is that you'd prefer the 85F, but that's just based on my past experience with 3711 at 85F.

sweetcell said:

one solution is to not have it share space - once your 3 days of temp control are done, remove the 3711 beer from the fermentation chamber and let it get a little warmer in a closet, behind the couch, dark corner of the bathroom, wrapped in a t-shirt in the living room, etc.

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MNDan said:

Would be fun to do a split batch - one kept at 68F and one allowed to rise to 85F. My inkling is that you'd prefer the 85F, but that's just based on my past experience with 3711 at 85F.

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I had actually considered moving it to a warmer place after 3 days, but after reading about Denny's experience with cooler temps, I think my standard ale fermentation temp/schedule is going to be just right... which includes letting my chamber warm all the way up to 73 after 3 days! Haha. Those first 48-60 hours is where the love happens, even for lager beers, I always let 'em ramp up after that amount of time (a technique I credit Tasty for). I am now considering throwing in .25 - .5 lbs Rye malt. Thoughts?

MNDan said:

Would be fun to do a split batch - one kept at 68F and one allowed to rise to 85F. My inkling is that you'd prefer the 85F, but that's just based on my past experience with 3711 at 85F.

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I basically did that. Brewed a 2 gallon test batch and then a full 5 gallon after the test. First time was 85, second was 62. Greatly prefer the 62. The 85 is way too fruity, and I frequently do dubbels and quads with 3787 at 80+.

I recently used 3711 for a Biere de Garde. I kept it at 65F for about three days, then moved it to 70F. I was surprised at how clean it came through -- definitely some Belgian esters, but very restrained. It is a pretty versatile yeast.

Brulosopher said:

I am now considering throwing in .25 - .5 lbs Rye malt. Thoughts?

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rye + saison is a winning combo. go for it.

sweetcell said:

rye + saison is a winning combo. go for it.

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You need at least 2 lbs, preferably 3, to get anything noticeable out of rye.

rexbanner said:

You need at least 2 lbs, preferably 3, to get anything noticeable out of rye.

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depends on your grain bill. you want to get it into the 10% to 15% range, generally.

So I just took a sample. After 3 days I'm down to 1.021. The nose and flavor are all fruit. I get citrus and apple along with some typical belgian esters but zero spice. I'm up to 78 now, really trying to crank out the flavors but at this point it tastes as mild as my first go around. It really just tastes like a cider fermented with belgian yeast.

1.054 OG
75% Pils
20% Rye
05% Aromatic
Mashed at 156

Depending on how things go, I may have to add some spices post ferment... Any thoughts?

tagz said:

So I just took a sample. After 3 days I'm down to 1.021. The nose and flavor are all fruit. I get citrus and apple along with some typical belgian esters but zero spice. I'm up to 78 now, really trying to crank out the flavors but at this point it tastes as mild as my first go around. It really just tastes like a cider fermented with belgian yeast.

1.054 OG
75% Pils
20% Rye
05% Aromatic
Mashed at 156

Depending on how things go, I may have to add some spices post ferment... Any thoughts?

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Gotta keep the temp low for phenols. Also, mash needs to be really low. Saison is a low IBU beer but isn't sweet at all, and the key is that it is very very dry. I mash at 149 and use a pound of sugar to get an FG of 1.005.

I have no fear that 3711 will dry this guy out. I mashed high to try to keep a little body. My first run got it down to 1.004 with no sugar. i bet it will get into single digits regardless, at least thats what all the theads say. Last time I kept it in the mid 60s and got zero spice. I hear everyone commenting on the spicy flavors but I'm not getting any low or high. Maybe time will turn things around....

There's a lot of contradicting info on high vs low temp...

The 3711 attenuates quickly and has a great flavor profile. When you ferment cooler (68ish) you get a lot of fruit character, orange and lemon. When the temps get increased (I've taken it up to 77) you get a fair amount of the spice and pepper notes.

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Consider using spices. I think this yeast benefits from it, since it's really clean and fruity. A small amount of spices seems to balance it.

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tagz said:

I have no fear that 3711 will dry this guy out. I mashed high to try to keep a little body. My first run got it down to 1.004 with no sugar. i bet it will get into single digits regardless, at least thats what all the theads say. Last time I kept it in the mid 60s and got zero spice. I hear everyone commenting on the spicy flavors but I'm not getting any low or high. Maybe time will turn things around....

There's a lot of contradicting info on high vs low temp...

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There's a lot of contradicting info out there. All I can say is that in my personal experience, higher temps have produced more fruity esters and lower temps have produced less fruity esters. This falls in line with every single yeast I have ever used. If you want to emphasize more phenolic character, ferment lower.

Its a pretty forgiving yeast. I have had good results in the lower to mid 60s and well into the mid-upper 70s.

rexbanner said:

You need at least 2 lbs, preferably 3, to get anything noticeable out of rye.

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Hmm... I'll have to think about this. 8 oz is only 5% of my grist, and I'm not really looking to get (another) stuck sparge. Perhaps I'll throw in more...

rexbanner said:

There's a lot of contradicting info out there. All I can say is that in my personal experience, higher temps have produced more fruity esters and lower temps have produced less fruity esters. This falls in line with every single yeast I have ever used. If you want to emphasize more phenolic character, ferment lower.

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Yeah, that's definitely the standard for phenol vs ester. That's why I was surprised to get so little spice last go around. Thought maybe this yeast might be unique in that respect. Or at least high temps would draw out more of both...

Any thoughts on adding peppercorn to secondary? Or other spice? I enjoy stillwater's saison with rosemary.