Gose anyone?

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landhoney

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http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gose

I just made a starter of Pedio last night, it supposedly produces lactic acid in greater amounts than Lactobacillus. And I want to add it to a bunch of beers, including a Gose style beer. I'm not sure Pedio works the same as Lacto though. The recipe below supposedly makes a good Gose without it, but I'd like to add Pedio to create a stylistically more accurate beer(or just better all around).

Its similar to a Berliner Weisse, some say more sour and some less, but includes oats, corriander, and salt. If anyone has had one, I'd be interested to hear your impressions.

Brew Type: All Grain Date: 2/24/2005
Style: Specialty, Experimental, Historical Beer Brewer: Dennis
Batch Size: 5.50 gal Assistant Brewer: Judy
Boil Volume: 7.39 gal Boil Time: 60 min
Equipment: Brew Pot (15 Gal) and Igloo/Gott Cooler (10 Gal) Brewhouse Efficiency: 78.0 %
Taste Rating (50 possible points): 35.0

Ingredients Amount Item Type % or IBU
3.50 lb German Pale Malt (2 SRM) Grain 33.3 %
3.50 lb White Wheat Malt (2 SRM) Grain 33.3 %
2.00 lb Acid Malt (3 SRM) Grain 19.0 %
1.00 lb Munich Malt (9 SRM) Grain 9.5 %
0.50 lb Oats, Flaked (1 SRM) Grain 4.8 %
1.00 oz Hallertauer Leaf [4.8%] (60 min) Hops 16.4 IBU
1.00 oz Hallertauer Leaf [4.8%] (20 min) Hops 10.0 IBU
0.75 oz Coriander Seed (Boil 15.0 min) Misc
1.00 oz Sea Salt (Boil 45.0 min) Misc
1 Pkgs Bavarian Wheat (Wyeast Labs #3638) Yeast-Wheat

Beer Profile Estimated Original Gravity: 1.054 SG (1.030-1.110 SG) Measured Original Gravity: 1.050 SG
Estimated Final Gravity: 1.014 SG (1.006-1.024 SG) Measured Final Gravity: 1.011 SG
Estimated Color: 5 SRM (5-50 SRM) Color [Color]
Bitterness: 26.4 IBU (5.0-70.0 IBU) Alpha Acid Units: 1.7 AAU
Estimated Alcohol by Volume: 5.2 % (2.5-12.0 %) Actual Alcohol by Volume: 5.1 %

Whatya think?
 
The bar that I frequent sells a Gose. It is $30.00 for 750ml so I haven't brought myself to buy it yet. Should be interesting!
 
Looks like the Pedio might be problematic, anyway I'm going to do a sour mash as well. I'm droping the Munich(don't see the need), and going to pitch Notingham along with the 3638 and doing primary fermentation cold(62-66F) and then raise the temperature for the Pedio once primary fermentation is complete.

Also, I got some long/skinny neck bottles like the old Gose came in. The long neck was designed to not need any cap/cork, a plug/pellicle would form in the long neck and keep the beer 'protected'(see 'Gose' in Radical Brewing). Anyway the link below is the style bottles I have(it looks squarish in the pick, but its round with a long slender neck and blue glass). I'll take picks of mine once their filled/bottled, I plan on just using a normal cork(it works).
http://www.ushbc.org/photos/Tomasello.jpg
 
MikeFlynn74 said:
Wow that looks like a pain in the ass-

Mike you have the power to see the future! Cold temps, three rain interruptions, a slow mash/sparge runoff, and completely forgetting the salt/corriander( I took some wort out and boiled the salt/coriander seperately after) made for an 'interesting' brew day. All in all it turned out well I think. I'm really excited to see how this turns out.

Also, based on the Kaiser's comments the Munich got back on the grainbill. :)
 
Ryanh1801 said:
Did you end up doing two separate mashes?

Way to rub salt in the wound ;) Just kidding, but I forgot that was another mini-problem, I did do a seperate mash on the stove for the acid malt and right at the end the grains started to caramelize/stick on the bottom. It really wasn't a big deal, but doing different things in adverse conditions did seem to cause some troubles. Like I said though, I think the beer turned out fine so far.
 
Just found this article by Michael Jackson(maybe?, in Beer Hunter anyway). I underlined the more important parts in terms of recipe formulation and tasting, just in case anyone ever wants to brew this besides me;) :

"I was in Leipzig on a Wednesday evening, not typically the best for the pub and restaurant business anywhere, and the Bayrischer Bahnhof was packed. By far the most popular beer was the Gose. This is made principally from grains grown locally and malted in nearby Krostitz. The grist comprises between 50 and 60 per cent malted wheat. The other malts are a Pilsener and a small proportion of Munich. The hops are Northern Brewer (for bitterness) and Perle, from the nearby Elbe-Saale growing area. Like most wheat beers, Gose has a low hop bitterness. In this particular style, the balancing dryness is provided by the ground coriander seeds and salt, which are added in the whirlpool.
When I tasted a prototype Gose, four years ago, I felt that its refreshing acidity was too overtly citric, and that a lactobacillus should be used. This was a passing comment - I am not a technical consultant - and I was gratified to be told by proprietor Schneider that he had taken up my suggestion. The main fermentation is with a Weihenstephan wheat beer yeast, but both this and the secondary are in cylindro-conical tanks. These are used as unitanks, with a cold lagering.

Again, the wheat should provide crispness but the typically estery flavours from the yeast must not overpower the spicing. The beer has a starting gravity of 11.0-11.25 (1044-45), and emerges with an alcohol content of 4.6 per cent by volume (3.7w).

All the beers at Bayrischer Bahnhof are unfiltered. The Gose has a full haze; a yellowish color; a fine, sustained, bead; a hint of apple-skin aroma on the nose; a light but smooth, textured, body; restrained ripe-plum fruitiness in the palate; and a dry, herbal, coriander finish. The tangy, refreshing, sharpness of the salt is quite subtle. The use of coriander and salt in this beer is contrary to the the German Beer Purity Law, the Reinheitsgebot, and this posed a difficulty when the style was revived. Now that the beer is on a firm footing, the state of Saxony has been persuaded to grant an exemption. After all, Gose existed before Northern Germany had accepted the Beer Purity Law, which was originally a Bavarian measure. "

Glad I kept the Munich malt in, thanks again Kaiser. The fact that the yeast is not supposed to overpower the coriander leads me to belive that the beer is indeed fermented at lower temp than other German wheat beers were the flavor is called for.
 
olllllo said:
At that point he'll start posting in dead languages.

Between Landhoney posting in dead languages and that thread on the Hobbit beer, my wife might start spending as much time here as I do... :rolleyes:
 
olllllo said:
At that point he'll start posting in dead languages.

Next up, Cornish Sour Yarrow ale - spontaneously fermented directly under a large goat scrotum for a minimum of 5 days. :rockin:
 
ohiobrewtus said:
Next up, Cornish Sour Yarrow ale - spontaneously fermented directly under a large goat scrotum for a minimum of 5 days. :rockin:

Now that's just crazy talk......maybe not?;)

I don't know anything about dead languages, I think Cockney Rhyming Slang is interesting though:

You guys are elephant and castles, now get off your Blade of Grass and make some sour Britney Spears!
 
ohiobrewtus said:
Next up, Cornish Sour Yarrow ale - spontaneously fermented directly under a large goat scrotum for a minimum of 5 days. :rockin:

That sounds more like pledge training than brewing, but who's to say it ain't good? :mug:


TL
 
Bottled and Carbed! Its still 'green' but it tastes good and there's no diacetyl from the Pedio(or whatever it was?!?) which is a huge relief. It may have a hair too much salt, but SWMBO didn't notice it until I told her it was in there. That's one of those things that you don't know until its cold and carbed unfortunately. I think it has a bit too much Munich, but we'll see. I just found/bought a bottle of real Gose, so my plan is to drink them side by side and compare(and post pics) because I've never had one. The long neck blue bottles look cool too, I waxed the tops as well. More to come.
 
Guess which is the real Gose, then look at the picture below for the answer.
DSC_00150001.JPG


DSC_00120001_3.JPG
 
landhoney said:
Just found this article by Michael Jackson(maybe?, in Beer Hunter anyway). I underlined the more important parts in terms of recipe formulation and tasting, just in case anyone ever wants to brew this besides me;)

The Gose I had was by far not as reddish as your example (see here) and looks more like a bavarian wheat would look. As a matter of fact I might be starting with my wheat beer receipe.

How much Munich (in %) did you add or does the color come from crystal malts? Did you aim for that color?

I'm also surprised to see that they use a Bavarian wheat strain for the fermentation since I didn't detect any of the funkiness of a Bavarian Wheat. But then again there are many interpretations of this style. I would have started with an Alt or Koelsh yeast.

Kai
 
Kaiser said:
The Gose I had was by far not as reddish as your example (see here) and looks more like a bavarian wheat would look. As a matter of fact I might be starting with my wheat beer receipe.
How much Munich (in %) did you add or does the color come from crystal malts? Did you aim for that color?
I'm also surprised to see that they use a Bavarian wheat strain for the fermentation since I didn't detect any of the funkiness of a Bavarian Wheat. But then again there are many interpretations of this style. I would have started with an Alt or Koelsh yeast.
Kai

I think this example I had is not very good, and not very traditional. Unfortunately its the only one I have ever seen. It was not very sour at all, and did have a belgian/raisin/rummy smell and taste. It was also maltier than mine. I did not get much if any salt, but a bit of spice/coriander when it warmed up. Mine was ~7% munich malt I think.
I re-read your posts Kaiser, but could you explain the differences between the Gose you had and the Beriner Weisse style(because I have had good examples of that)? Yeast character differences, maltiness differences, sour levels, type of sourness, etc. I think you only mentioned it was maltier, and that the BW was thin and too sour. I'm just trying to get a better idea of what to shoot for next time, because it won't be the commercial one I just had( maybe it was a bad bottle not stored well though, I can't imagine these fly off the shelves).
 
landhoney said:
Mine was ~7% munich malt I think.

That's pretty red for 7% munich. I brew an Oktoberfest with 20% dark munich and it is more of a dark gold.

As for the differences between the Berliner Weisse and the Gose (at least the one I had) you got it right. The Berliner Weisse was just thin, fizzy and sour and it seems to me that it is not supposed to be drunken straight but with "Schuss", which means the addition of syrup. Its starting extract is with ~10% ( 1.040) less than a "normal" German beer.

The Gose however did have some more supporting flavors. For one it was darker, which might be the result of mashing or munich malt additions. Its sourness was also not as overpowering. Its head was fairly long lasting, much longer than that of the Weisse. I also noted that the bitterness was more evident than the one of the Berliner Weisse. I'd say take a good German Wheat, remove or significantly subdue the funkiness (esters and phenols), sour it to a point where a normal discerning beer drinker would still consider it drinkable but already call it an aquired taste, add coriander and salt such that it is barely noticable and you have yourself a good Gose.

That's what I plan to do once it gets warm enough for me to do ales again and I got myself a bag of wheat malt.

This year I also plan to go back to Germany to show my parents their grandkids again. Still pending based on the size of the tax refund though. Once there I definately want to try more of the Gose and hopefully get a chance to talk to a brewmaster about that beer. After all, though my taste leans more towards Bavarian beer styles, this is a pretty exciting beer style right in my parent's backyard.

Kai
 
landhoney said:
Way to rub salt in the wound ;) Just kidding, but I forgot that was another mini-problem, I did do a seperate mash on the stove for the acid malt and right at the end the grains started to caramelize/stick on the bottom.


Would this not explain the darker Color?
 
Kaiser said:
That's pretty red for 7% munich. Kai

Just making sure, but mine is the lighter one on the right. It may be the glass and/or the picture but looking at it now in the light it is not red at all, but golden orange I'd say. I'll try to take another picture in better light and a thinner glass.

Thank you for the information/advice, it is very helpful.

Ryanh1801 said:
Would this not explain the darker Color?

No, those that stuck didn't get added into the mash. It was just a thin layer that stuck to the bottom of the pan and didn't get mixed in, hard to describe sorry.
 
landhoney said:
I'll try to take another picture in better light and a thinner glass.

It may be just the white balance that is off. I'm not sure if your camera or a computer program you have can ajust for that. I tried to find a quick way of correcting the white balance for the pic you posted, but couldn't.

Kai
 
The white balance 'sun' setting looks very much like the 'incandescent light' setting. You were right, I had the wrong white balance selected. Here you go:
DSC_00050001_3.JPG
DSC_00060001.JPG
I don't care that much about the color, but I did want to get a representative picture up. There still may be a hint of red in that first pic. But in real life, to my eye, I don't see any. Definitely deep orange though, but describing a beer's color is not my strong suit. I didn't edit these photo's at all, only changed the white balance on my camera.
 
I think Im gonna brew this one up. Well somewhat. Going to use 3191 yeast in it and see what happens.
 
I think Im gonna brew this one up. Well somewhat. Going to use 3191 yeast in it and see what happens.

Sounds good Ryan, I think this is a good brew but of course feel free to make it your own in any way you see fit. I had one last night at my bro-in-laws actually:
BEER.JPG
 
Probably only gonna drop a little bit of the acid malt and use light Munich. And damn that picture looks good.
 
I started working on mine. I have about a gallon of wort left from the last Weissbier and I kept 800ml of unhopped wort as well. The latter was boiled, cooled and inoculated with a tsp of crushed malt.

I’ll be boiling up the hopped wort with some coriander and salt and ferment it with an Alt yeast (any neutral low flocc German yeast should do). The soured wort will be boiled to kill the bacteria (I don’t want to work with live ones unless I have a dedicated bucket) and used to blend with the beer. I’ts a half-ass approach, but this is my first sour beer and I’m afraid if I jump in with a 5gal batch I may end up with 5 gal undrinkable beer.

I’m also trying to isolate a pure lacto culture from the malt. But this is more a geeky adventure.

Does lacto grow in hopped wort, would I have to find a strain that does?

Kai

 
If you want Lacto, just leave the mash sit in the tun. You can mashout if you want. They seem to have survived the 160 °F I put them through for my Wit. Thing is, you just leave it covered overnight. I have found that once you hit around 130 °F be ready to move fast because your pH reduction is going to happen very quickly when you get to their zone. You'll have to play with it too to get it right, but in general 18 hours and you are looking at a pronounced sourness if you treat them right, temperature-wise. The inoculation idea works, but the problem is it takes much longer. Another approach I have used is, you separate about a lb of your grain put it in a sufficient SS pot, strike it to get around 130 °F and then set it covered in the oven with the light on which should provide you near ideal Lacto temps. Then you can just add that into your tun prior to sparge, but after conversion.
 
I started working on mine. I have about a gallon of wort left from the last Weissbier and I kept 800ml of unhopped wort as well. The latter was boiled, cooled and inoculated with a tsp of crushed malt.
I’ll be boiling up the hopped wort with some coriander and salt and ferment it with an Alt yeast (any neutral low flocc German yeast should do). The soured wort will be boiled to kill the bacteria (I don’t want to work with live ones unless I have a dedicated bucket) and used to blend with the beer. I’ts a half-ass approach, but this is my first sour beer and I’m afraid if I jump in with a 5gal batch I may end up with 5 gal undrinkable beer.
I’m also trying to isolate a pure lacto culture from the malt. But this is more a geeky adventure.
Does lacto grow in hopped wort, would I have to find a strain that does?
Kai


Sounds like a good plan Kaiser, I'll be interested to see how your's turns out. Good luck isolating the lacto, what will be your approach/methods to do this? As I understand it, Lacto will grow in hopped wort - but is slowed down by the hops. In other words, the less hops - the less inhibited the lacto will be and the sourer the beer. That is my understanding anyway.
 
Good luck isolating the lacto, what will be your approach/methods to do this?

I'll be streaking it out on a plate of unhopped wort. Once I have colonies that don't look like yeast, I'll be picking one and propagating it in wort.

Kai
 
Personally, I'd make sure that strain has a serious leg up especially if there is uncertainty about the retarding effect of the hops. Again, you will most certainly see the best results by maintaining proper temperature.
 
Here is a report on my first attempt:



Gose_I.jpg

Because I generally don't like sour beers, I only made a 1 gal batch which turned out to be a good idea.
The wort was taken from a batch of wheat beer that was brewed with 70% light wheat malt and 30% Pilsner malt (at 12 Plato) and hopped to about 10 IBU. 0.8 l of the unhopped wort was boiled for 15 min and inoculated with about 1 Tsp crushed malt. This wort was then left to sour at ~ 21 c (70 f) for a few days before 0.5 l were added to 2.5 l of hopped wort and then boiled for 15 min. The boil served to kill all the bugs in the soured wort. 12 crushed coriander seeds and 1/2 tsp of kosher salt were added to the boil as well as 0.5l water to compensate evaporation.
After cooling the wort was fermented with WY1007 (German Ale) for a week at about 20C (68F) and bottled straight from the fermenter. 2g of table sugar was added to each bottle for carbonation.
After 2 weeks I tasted the result:
Appearance:
  • good head retention
  • cloudy as I remember a Gose from Germany
Aroma:
  • there is some light sour aroma, but I think that there should be more
Taste:
  • To much salt. The salt is way to prominent and it tastes like Gatorade
  • Not sour enough. The sourness is rather restrained. I either want to increase the portion of soured wort or just invest into a lacto culture instead of souring with malt
  • The coriander is there but barely noticeable. I won't change that for now
  • The carbonation was a little low. Most likely it didn't ferment as far as I wanted it to ferment
All in all, a decent, yet not really drinkable first attempt. I'll stick with the small batches off Weissbier batches until I figured out how to get it just right.
 
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