"Rinsing the Grain Bed"?

Hello All,

I'm pretty new to this all grain stuff and I'm wondering if I'm shooting myself in the foot. Specifically, here is my question:

After I collect my 2nd runnings, I have been putting 130 degree water into my grain bed and drawing it off until I get to my desired boil volume. I do this because it both seemed logical and is visibly clear that I am getting a lot of additional sugars that would otherwise be tossed with the spent grain.

Is this a mistake?

I'd very much appreciate your thoughts!

The second sparge isn't bad, but that temp is a bit high. That hot and you can be extracting a lot of tannins from the grain.

edit: misread the temp. Nevermind the temp is too high comment.

Hmmmm, I was going to say that 130F is low. I always sparge with 175F water.

I thought you didnt have to worry about extracting tannins until you got over 170 Deg F. I ususally sparge with 150 - 160 deg F water and haven't had any issues with extracting tannins.

ChshreCat said:

The second sparge isn't bad, but that temp is a bit high. That hot and you can be extracting a lot of tannins from the grain.

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Thanks for your input!!!!

Interestingly, I was more worried about it being too cool since BeerSmith has me put in 196 F water for the Mash Out (which drops to like 177 when mixed with the grain bed). I'm pretty confident that this second sparge (that I do immediately after the 196 deg mashout), is actually cooling the grain, not heating it. Will that release tanins?

Yeah my understanding is that you don't want the grain bed to get too much over 165 or so. Adding 175 degree water just keeps it warm enough so that the mash doesn't gelatinize. That's why I don't really get the whole point of a mash out. Why would you add boiling water to the grain when you are going to boil the whole thing anyway?

To the OP - Are you doing a batch or fly sparge? What do you mean by second runnings? If you are continuing to sparge to collect your desired amount of wort, that is still considered first runnings. Second runnings would be collecting more wort after you have enough for one batch. The term second runnings usually means you are collecting more wort for a second and light batch of wort that will ferment separately from your first.

BigTexun said:

Thanks for your input!!!!

Interestingly, I was more worried about it being too cool since BeerSmith has me put in 196 F water for the Mash Out (which drops to like 177 when mixed with the grain bed). I'm pretty confident that this second sparge (that I do immediately after the 196 deg mashout), is actually cooling the grain, not heating it. Will that release tanins?

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I have never heard of sparging that low: Here's what Palmer says: http://www.howtobrew.com/section3/chapter17.html

And here's another thread on the same subject: https://www.homebrewtalk.com/f36/sparge-water-temperature-141885/

My bad. I misread the temp. Still waking up and my eyes aren't catching up to the rest of me yet. That is a bit on the low side.

JonK331 said:

Yeah my understanding is that you don't want the grain bed to get too much over 165 or so. Adding 175 degree water just keeps it warm enough so that the mash doesn't gelatinize. That's why I don't really get the whole point of a mash out. Why would you add boiling water to the grain when you are going to boil the whole thing anyway?

To the OP - Are you doing a batch or fly sparge? What do you mean by second runnings? If you are continuing to sparge to collect your desired amount of wort, that is still considered first runnings. Second runnings would be collecting more wort after you have enough for one batch. The term second runnings usually means you are collecting more wort for a second and light batch of wort that will ferment separately from your first.

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I don't have all the terminology down. BeerSmith calls it a "single infusion, full body." Here's what I'm doing, if you'd be so kind, I'd really like to know what it is called:

Step1: I add 11.88 quarts of 170.5 F... this drops to 158 F and I let it sit for 45 minutes.

Step 2: I vorlaf, then collect everything that'll come out.

Step 3: I add 4.57 quarts at 197 F, which drops to 168 F... let this soak for 10 minutes... and collect everything that'll come out.

Step 4: Since I don't have the 6.5 gallons that I want, I pour 130 F water through the bed until I get 6.5 gallons. I use 130 F water because that's the temp I get from the tap.

BeerSmith calls Step 1 the Mash In, and Step 3 the Mash Out.

I batch sparge, which it seems like the OP is doing, with 190-195 F water. For the short amount of time it's in there, there is not going to be any significant tannin extraction. Picked up this procedure from Denny Conn and have been doing it for 15-20 batces and never had a problem.

Step 1: This 170F water is called strike water and combined with the malt is called the mash.
Step 2: Yup, vorlauf then first batch sparge
Step 3: Second batch sparge
Step 4: This is a third batch sparge, the only thing is that if you want to stay true to the batch method, you should heat the water to 175 or so and add it all at once, let sit again, and then drain completely. What you are doing is kind of like a continuous/fly sparge with water that is too cool.

I am very partial to the fly sparge method and think the batch method over complicates things (I'm sure I will get nailed to the wall for saying that but it is my opinion). To fly sparge, all you would do is heat water to 170F during the mash. Then, at the end of the mash duration vorlauf as usual, then start adding water to your mash tun while you are simultaneously draining very slowly (1 qt per minute is about right), keeping the water level above the grain bed at all times. You will need approximately 1.5 times as much sparge water as strike water. So if your recipe called for 3 gallons of strike water for the mash, you would need around 4.5 gallons (I usually need a bit more to get the desired volume) of sparge water. Anyway, the advantage is that it is one continuous process rather than three different ones with three different temperatures.

As an added note, 158F is at the high side of the mash temp range and will lead to a less fermentable wort. I mash the majority of my beers right around 150F.

If I were you, I'd increase the volumes of the first two sparges, so after draining getting your second runnings, you'd be at your pre-boil volume. You probably aren't hurting anything the way you are doing it, but you probably are gaining much in terms of the amount of sugar/fermentables coming out of the mash. You can shorten up your brewday by increasing the volume of the first two sparges...

Tell beersmith NOT to use a mashout infusion. If you really wanted to do this, you'd add that 4.5quarts of near boiling water to the mash and stir it in PRIOR to vorlauf and drain. Any infusions after the first runnings would be considered batch sparges.

You want simple?
Mash 1.5 qts/lb of grain for 60 minutes.
Vorlauf and drain first runnings. If you want 6.5 gallons preboil volume, subtract your first runnings from 6.5. Whatever's left is your sparge volume.

Sparge with said volume at about 185F. You can do this is one step. Add it all to the tun, stir like mad, vorlauf and drain. Done.

JonK331 said:

Step 4: This is a third batch sparge, the only thing is that if you want to stay true to the batch method, you should heat the water to 175 or so and add it all at once, let sit again, and then drain completely. What you are doing is kind of like a continuous/fly sparge with water that is too cool.

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Hence my question... I had decided to do this "weird step" instead of just using "top up water"... because I have an unlimited supply of 130 F water right from the tap and, because of that, it really isn't adding a third step. However, I can visually see that even the sparge water that is too cool is increasing efficiency. Intuitively, I wouldn't think that "too cool" would add off flavors... but, ?

JonK331 said:

I am very partial to the fly sparge method and think the batch method over complicates things (I'm sure I will get nailed to the wall for saying that but it is my opinion). To fly sparge, all you would do is heat water to 170F during the mash. Then, at the end of the mash duration vorlauf as usual, then start adding water to your mash tun while you are simultaneously draining very slowly (1 qt per minute is about right), keeping the water level above the grain bed at all times. You will need approximately 1.5 times as much sparge water as strike water. So if your recipe called for 3 gallons of strike water for the mash, you would need around 4.5 gallons (I usually need a bit more to get the desired volume) of sparge water. Anyway, the advantage is that it is one continuous process rather than three different ones with three different temperatures.

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I may try that! My biggest problem is knowing how much water to prepare / add for the fly sparge. It does sound like it might actually be faster because once you get the mash draining, you keep it draining to you have your boil volume. Since I've gone all grain, faster would be a whole lot better.

JonK331 said:

As an added note, 158F is at the high side of the mash temp range and will lead to a less fermentable wort. I mash the majority of my beers right around 150F.

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How do you define less fermentable? I'm just curious because dropping to 150 would be a big change from BeerSmith's target... which, given the fact I don't really know what I'm doing, was my heretofore "trusted foundation".

Bobby_M said:

Tell beersmith NOT to use a mashout infusion. If you really wanted to do this, you'd add that 4.5quarts of near boiling water to the mash and stir it in PRIOR to vorlauf and drain. Any infusions after the first runnings would be considered batch sparges.

You want simple?
Mash 1.5 qts/lb of grain for 60 minutes.
Vorlauf and drain first runnings. If you want 6.5 gallons preboil volume, subtract your first runnings from 6.5. Whatever's left is your sparge volume.

Sparge with said volume at about 185F. You can do this is one step. Add it all to the tun, stir like mad, vorlauf and drain. Done.

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I think I'll try this. Thanks!

BigTexun said:

I may try that! My biggest problem is knowing how much water to prepare / add for the fly sparge.

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Grain absorbs roughly 0.15 gallons per pound so take your quantity of strike water (1.25 quarts per pound) , subtract 0.15 gallons per pound of grain, so for 10 pound grain bill you'd have 3.125 gallons water (10 x 1.25 = 12.5, 12.5 /4 = 3.125). Then subtract 0.15 gallons per pound (10 x 0.15 = 1.5, 3.125 - 1.5 = 1.625) to get 1.625 gallons left. So then you know you'll need a total of 6.5 gallons in the kettle to get 5.5 gallons of wort (~1 gallon loss to evaporation) so 6.5 - 1.625 = 4.87 gallon of sparge water. It really isn't that complicated though, you'll get used to how much you need to fill you hot liquor tank, I don't even measure any more, I just know that I need to fill the HLT to just below the bottom of the handle. The calculation gives you an exact amount but all you really need is to get in the ballpark. Exact water calculations aren't really necessary but it's nice to know how to do it.

For the mash itself: keep in mind that you can mash with anywhere from 1.1 to 3 qts of water per pound of grain and still have a successful mash so that amount doesn't have to be exact either. I usually start with about 1.25 quarts of water per pound but have to adjust the temp with either hot or cold water to hit the right mash temp. This is a more hands on approach and takes out some of the math.

Re: your question about mash temp: temperatures in the mid to high 140's will give you more fermentable sugars resulting in a drier beer. Temps in the mid to high 150's will give more unfermentable sugars and will result in a sweeter beer. 150-152 is a great balance. Here's another thread on mash temps: https://www.homebrewtalk.com/f13/effects-mash-temperature-139318/

im new to this and i was going to say that 130F was i little low lol im glad you caught that.

For what it's worth, on my PM brews, I will do my usual run off of the mash then do a good sparge. Then I'll add some more sparge water and run it off until I fill my kettle. I suppose I could just be more exact on my sparge volume the first time and hit my boil volume right off, but this seems easy and I figure the second sparge helps get every bit of goodness rinsed out of the grain.

so what temp is your sparge water?

KRYLOK said:

so what temp is your sparge water?

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Who?

Mine is usually about 150-160.

170

How long do you guys let the water sit when you do a batch sparge to get teh most sugar extraction? Is there a time limit before you start getting tannins, or is that just dictated by temperature?

Eddiebosox said:

How long do you guys let the water sit when you do a batch sparge to get teh most sugar extraction? Is there a time limit before you start getting tannins, or is that just dictated by temperature?

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That's the beauty of batch sparging- it doesn't have to sit at all. The sugars (through diffusion) will move to the water you just added. You add the water, stir like crazy, and then begin draining. Letting it sit won't make the sugars more soluble.

Some people DO let it sit for 10 minutes or so, but there really isn't any need.

No sit time...add sparge water, stir, vorlauf, then drain to desired volume.

If you don't know how much sparge water you'll need, just heat up five gallons worth. Then only use what you need.

A mash out is intended to heat the sugar and thus lower the viscosity of the mash so that it moves through the fileter bed more readily. best applicable if you are fly sparging.

If you do not know or adjust the pH of your sparge water then yes, it is adviseable to keep the sparge water temp at or just below 170 especially when fly sparging and has some limited applicatrion to the batch sparge due to some buffering done by the grain.

However, if you fly sparge and lock your sparge water pH into neutrality then temp of the sparge water can be above the 170 threshold since it is better understood that tannin extraction is more the result of pH rather than temp.

JonK331 said:

I am very partial to the fly sparge method and think the batch method over complicates things (I'm sure I will get nailed to the wall for saying that but it is my opinion). To fly sparge, all you would do is heat water to 170F during the mash. Then, at the end of the mash duration vorlauf as usual, then start adding water to your mash tun while you are simultaneously draining very slowly (1 qt per minute is about right), keeping the water level above the grain bed at all times. You will need approximately 1.5 times as much sparge water as strike water. So if your recipe called for 3 gallons of strike water for the mash, you would need around 4.5 gallons (I usually need a bit more to get the desired volume) of sparge water. Anyway, the advantage is that it is one continuous process rather than three different ones with three different temperatures.

As an added note, 158F is at the high side of the mash temp range and will lead to a less fermentable wort. I mash the majority of my beers right around 150F.

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Today, I brewed a batch of chocolate porter and decided to try this fly sparging technique. It went great! As a matter of fact, it really seemed to speed up the process; I mashed in at 1:22 pm and had the starter pitched and had everything cleaned up by 4:25 pm (for me, that is fast). I was tickled pink - thanks!

BigTexun said:

Today, I brewed a batch of chocolate porter and decided to try this fly sparging technique. It went great! As a matter of fact, it really seemed to speed up the process; I mashed in at 1:22 pm and had the starter pitched and had everything cleaned up by 4:25 pm (for me, that is fast). I was tickled pink - thanks!

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Great! Glad I could help. Did you hit your target gravities?

JonK331 said:

Great! Glad I could help. Did you hit your target gravities?

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Dead on the money. I even lowered the mash temp to 150 like you suggested.

Also, I did the initial calcs using your .15 gals / lb absorption to calculate my fly sparge water volume. When the last drop came out of the bed, I had exactly the pre boil volume I wanted.

A year ago, I was trying to brew with a Mr Beer kt my daughter bought me for Christmas... Now I'm fly sparging... Geez what a hobby!

Thanks again for helping me advance my own art!

BigTexun said:

Dead on the money. I even lowered the mash temp to 150 like you suggested.

Also, I did the initial calcs using your .15 gals / lb absorption to calculate my fly sparge water volume. When the last drop came out of the bed, I had exactly the pre boil volume I wanted.

A year ago, I was trying to brew with a Mr Beer kt my daughter bought me for Christmas... Now I'm fly sparging... Geez what a hobby!

Thanks again for helping me advance my own art!

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from your intial post it sounded like you were a batch sparger??

BigTexun said:

Dead on the money. I even lowered the mash temp to 150 like you suggested.

Also, I did the initial calcs using your .15 gals / lb absorption to calculate my fly sparge water volume. When the last drop came out of the bed, I had exactly the pre boil volume I wanted.

A year ago, I was trying to brew with a Mr Beer kt my daughter bought me for Christmas... Now I'm fly sparging... Geez what a hobby!

Thanks again for helping me advance my own art!

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Nice! I think the biggest issue people have with fly sparging is they set the flow out of the mash tun too fast and it hurts efficiency. Sounds like you did it just right.

DOn't people use the double sparge technique anymore? That has served me well for many years.

balto charlie said:

DOn't people use the double sparge technique anymore? That has served me well for many years.

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What is a double sparge? Sounds like batch.

JonK331 said:

What is a double sparge? Sounds like batch.

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It is a batch sparge....you split into two batch sparges.

broadbill said:

It is a batch sparge....you split into two batch sparges.

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I think most people who batch sparge do at least two batches.

JonK331 said:

I think most people who batch sparge do at least two batches.

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yeah, but there is such thing as a single batch sparge....they are both batch sparging.

Or so how I understand the terminology...

Yooper said:

That's the beauty of batch sparging- it doesn't have to sit at all. The sugars (through diffusion) will move to the water you just added. You add the water, stir like crazy, and then begin draining. Letting it sit won't make the sugars more soluble.

Some people DO let it sit for 10 minutes or so, but there really isn't any need.

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I had always read that the ten minutes was to let the bed settle....But if you are doing it right, I agree, no need.

broadbill said:

yeah, but there is such thing as a single batch sparge....they are both batch sparging.

Or so how I understand the terminology...

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Right but 1 rinse isn't going to collect all the sugars present. I think in terms of efficiency, doing at least a double batch sparge is important.

Lodovico said:

Right but 1 rinse isn't going to collect all the sugars present. I think in terms of efficiency, doing at least a double batch sparge is important.

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Yup and you have to vorlauf again. In order for the vorlauf to work, you have to let it settle at least a little. Just try the fly sparge folks, seriously.