Candy Sugar The Right Way (hint we've been doing it wrong)

Williams 728
Homebrew Talk - Beer, Wine, Mead, & Cider Brewing Discussion Forum

Help Support Homebrew Talk - Beer, Wine, Mead, & Cider Brewing Discussion Forum:

This site may earn a commission from merchant affiliate links, including eBay, Amazon, and others.
ryane

ryane

Well-Known Member
Joined
Nov 29, 2008
Messages
847
Reaction score
9
Location
Washington
Im not going to get too far into this here (too much to retype + pics + tables that i really dont know how to add to a post here on HBtalk), but I will say that the way we (myself included) have all been doing candy sugar isnt the right way. Well that is if you want something more like D2, if you like burnt sugar keep doing it the same old way.

Normally I wouldn't start a thread about a blog post I've done but I think this is a very important topic and could really help out a lot of homebrewers make better beers. If I've got you at all intrigued click the link below to continue to read on (be prepared for a long read!) + tables and pics

http://ryanbrews.blogspot.com/2012/02/candy-syrup-right-way-hint-weve-been.html

I'm interested in what people think, so read up and lets get the discussion going!!
 
You need to fix the link. It is broken.


Also, I appreciate the effort you went to here, but I think more important than "cooking time" which can vary quite dramatically due to atmospheric and equipment conditions, it would be useful to have accurate temperature readings of the solution. Also, "1 cup sugar" means different things to different people. Weight would be more consistent.


All that aside, I think the details you put together will really help with homemade candy syrup. I know I'm going to spend some time working on this pretty soon, and I appreciate all the work you've done to help guide others along a better path.
 
weirdboy said:
Also, I appreciate the effort you went to here, but I think more important than "cooking time" which can vary quite dramatically due to atmospheric and equipment conditions, it would be useful to have accurate temperature readings of the solution. Also, "1 cup sugar" means different things to different people. Weight would be more consistent.
Click to expand...

I knew the temp issue would come up, but when I did this, I went about it in a manner that I thought most people could just do with minimal equipment. I have a candy thermometer, but I dont think most people do

To reemphasize what I said at the bottom of the post, flavor development will be specific to your stove, pot, etc, so you should do a small test batch (just like I outlined) before you go all in. I should also mention that when increasing the batch size you should increase all ingredients EXCEPT the Lime
 
MichaelBrock said:
Along those same lines, this is how I have been doing it and it seems to work quite well:

https://www.homebrewtalk.com/f12/20-lb-sugar-jar-yeast-nutrient-114837/
Click to expand...

Not to disparage the way your going at it, but this seems to be the way we have always done it. Ive tried it by the method in the link, and, to me at least, the underlying flavor throughout that type of syrup is burnt sugar ala creme brulee.

When using lime, none of those flavors develop. Instead intense chocolate flavors (like a tootsie roll) seem to dominate. Raising the pH of the sugar syrup also corresponds more with what is done in beet sugar processing as well.
 
That was very informative. It seems we just need to think up a source of amino acids that could easily be added.
 
dmckean44 said:
That was very informative. It seems we just need to think up a source of amino acids that could easily be added.
Click to expand...

Yah, I think one of the things that I will do in the near future is retry this using an unrefined sugar. Hopefully all the extra stuff in there should increased the depth of flavor
 
Looking at your picture of the varying methods, it appears that the DAP ones are burnt. I have made Snickasaurusrex's a few times and had a problem the first time, only because the candy thermometer was 50F off the real temperature. After using a decent thermometer I have no problems getting fantastic flavor from the DAP method. I have had no problem making clear, light, amber, deep amber or sugar #5 (no burnt sugar). I also made sure to keep the heat at med-low to medium.

And I am not trying to say the DAP method is right, just your results greatly differ from mine and the pictures in that thread.
 
Beezer94 said:
Looking at your picture of the varying methods, it appears that the DAP ones are burnt.
Click to expand...

actually they are not burnt, and have 0 burned sugar flavors, the increased color formation is due to the high pH. An elevated pH promotes caramelization and maillard reactions, dramatically increasing the flavor development. A Low pH actually INHIBITS maillard reactions from taking place, slowing the process for making all those great flavors
 
Have you compared any of those products against D2 in terms of taste and/or fermentability? I didn't think I saw anything about that in the blog but I might have overlooked it.
 
ReverseApacheMaster said:
Have you compared any of those products against D2 in terms of taste and/or fermentability? I didn't think I saw anything about that in the blog but I might have overlooked it.
Click to expand...

no direct comparison yet, although the chocolate flavor is there the dark fruit isnt quite as much but I attribute that to the difference in types of amino acids

Im planning on a second round of trials with a couple twists to see what i can get, and then I'll try to taste against some d2

Overall though what Im hoping to get out of all of this is a lot of help from other people in tweaking this approach until we can get something that would be hard to differentiate from the commercial stuff
 
weirdboy said:
I am thinking about trying this with some of the lye that I got for making pretzels. Are there any potential issues I haven't considered?
Click to expand...

Well since your adding sodium it might give off a bit of a salty flavor like I noticed with the baking soda, you might try with a lower dose of lye and see how it goes

FWIW though pickling lime is really cheap, I picked up a couple pounds and it will basically be a lifetime supply
 
nice work ryane

possibly noob questions:

could you tell me a bit more about the variations? when i read the chart i was not sure what you are doing each time. what does 5 or 7 mean, for instance? each of those products has only one of the additives, correct? what is the effect of doing so many trials then? to try to nail down the amounts or the preparation?
 
ddrrseio said:
nice work ryane

possibly noob questions:

could you tell me a bit more about the variations? when i read the chart i was not sure what you are doing each time. what does 5 or 7 mean, for instance? each of those products has only one of the additives, correct? what is the effect of doing so many trials then? to try to nail down the amounts or the preparation?
Click to expand...

If you look at the top of the chart there are labels for each of the rows. the 5 or 7 is minutes boiled. Also in the text there is a short outline of what was in each mix and the amounts.

The reason for all the trials was to see which set of conditions gave the best results
 
ryane said:
If you look at the top of the chart there are labels for each of the rows. the 5 or 7 is minutes boiled. Also in the text there is a short outline of what was in each mix and the amounts.

The reason for all the trials was to see which set of conditions gave the best results
Click to expand...

thanks, that makes sense. when i read it the first time i interpreted time to mean 'trial #' - noob question after all :)
 
mistercameron said:
How far does DAP go - how many batches would 2 oz make?
Click to expand...

Well I was using 1/4tsp per cup of sugar, so a 2oz tube would last quite awhile.
Without going and measuring how much nutrient I used, it would be hard to be exact, but in all of my trials I only used about a half of a tube, and I did at least 2x as many as Im showing
 
So there has been some discussion about what D2 syrup really is, with some trying to argue that its nothing more than pure sugar that has been processed somehow

Looking at the spec sheet, this seems to be the case, however I sincerely doubt that. So Im going to run some tests on it to see whats really in there, right now Im going to measure...

Ash content
Iron
Calcium
Mg
Total Nitrogen

and Im trying to line up an hplc ms to get sugar compositions (glucose:sucrose:fructose)

Is there anything else that you think could be interesting/beneficial to measure??
 
OK, I've read this thread and read the blog, but I'm confused as to what you do to make this. Maybe I missed it, but it seems you have given a lot of different combinations and it's a 'pick whatever you like'.

Can you post what you think is the best 'recipe' to replicate candi-sugar.

Sorry, maybe it's late and I need to re-read it all again tomorrow.
 
Calder said:
OK, I've read this thread and read the blog, but I'm confused as to what you do to make this. Maybe I missed it, but it seems you have given a lot of different combinations and it's a 'pick whatever you like'.

Can you post what you think is the best 'recipe' to replicate candi-sugar.

Sorry, maybe it's late and I need to re-read it all again tomorrow.
Click to expand...

I think I may have been purposely ambiguous about an exact mix, but Lime + Nutrient + sugar is the way to go, I'll have to take another look to make sure thats obvious.

In the trials I did, the one that tasted the best was

1/2tsp lime
1/2tsp nutrient
1c sugar

this one developed very strong chocolate flavors
 
gugguson said:
Two questions:

1. Lime, it is dried right? I don't know if it is available in my country - is there a recommended replacement?
Click to expand...

slaked lime is also known as calcium hydroxide, its used for pickling cucumbers to keep them crisp. Nothing else Ive found seems to work as well

gugguson said:
2. I have dried yeast nutritient. I don't know if it is the one you are using. Is some of these what you recommend: http://morebeer.com/search/102174/beerwinecoffee/coffeewinebeer/Beer_Yeast_Nutrient
Click to expand...

While all the yeast nutrients will most likely produce similar flavors, they all will have their own nuances. I am gearing up to do a trial with DAP, WYeast nutrient, and any other I can get my hands on soon.
 
StMarcos said:
Someone needs to take one for the team, become a monk, move to Europe, make D2, and then pm one of us how it's done.
Click to expand...

Why thank you! We fully accept your offer to relocate for our benefit. You even have a head start, as it appears you are already a saint... Saint Marcos.

The generosity of HBT members never fails to amaze me.

;)
 
I have problems finding slaked lime/calcium hydroxide here in Iceland. Is there anywhere on the net which I can order it internationally?

ryane said:
slaked lime is also known as calcium hydroxide, its used for pickling cucumbers to keep them crisp. Nothing else Ive found seems to work as well



While all the yeast nutrients will most likely produce similar flavors, they all will have their own nuances. I am gearing up to do a trial with DAP, WYeast nutrient, and any other I can get my hands on soon.
Click to expand...
 
gugguson said:
I have problems finding slaked lime/calcium hydroxide here in Iceland. Is there anywhere on the net which I can order it internationally?
Click to expand...

I really dont know, Im guessing that because it is a very strong base that any shipping of it would be considered hazardous shipping.

But you could probably try ebay, it seems strange to me that they wouldnt carry it at supermarkets or a feed store when the weather warms up though. Its used quite a bit for maintaining aquariums, making pickled foods, or adjusting soil pH
 
I know this thread is 4-5 months old but for the record I do not get burnt flavors simply using straight sugar + water + heat. If you are getting burnt flavors it is likely because you have the heat too high and/or are not using enough water. I have found that after disolving the sugar in water and then immediately moving it to the oven set at 260F allows you to develop some good flavor without that burnt taste. It does take much longer in the oven (2 hours for a dark amber).

I of course found your experimentation useful and will probably give the lime a shot to see if it helps flavor.
 
JonnyJumpUp said:
That's actually a pretty good idea. I've made candi sugar once and the worst part was fiddling with the stove while keeping an eye on the thermometer. Tun it up, turn it down, add water, repeat. Even for light syrup it took me over an hour to get there - probably because you want to keep the sugar under 170° and my electric stove isn't the best tool for fast+fine temp adjustments.

I can handle sticking it in the oven and checking every 10-15 minutes.
Click to expand...
 
mistercameron said:
That's actually a pretty good idea. I've made candi sugar once and the worst part was fiddling with the stove while keeping an eye on the thermometer. Tun it up, turn it down, add water, repeat. Even for light syrup it took me over an hour to get there - probably because you want to keep the sugar under 170° and my electric stove isn't the best tool for fast+fine temp adjustments.

I can handle sticking it in the oven and checking every 10-15 minutes.
Click to expand...

Do you mean under 270F?

My procedure is:

1. Mix 1 cup water to 0.75 cup sugar in an oven safe sauce pan.
2. Heat on low heat in a pot on the burner until the sugar is mostly dissolved. BE VERY CAREFUL to not turn the burner up too high or you will get burnt flavors. At the same time I set the stove to 260F.
3. Move the sauce pan with sugar into the oven. Keep an eye on the temp. The first few times I checked with a thermometer but once I got a feel for my oven I don't check anymore. Keep in mind oven thermometers arent always all that accurate.
4. Check the mixture every 5-10 minutes. I usually watch TV and check it every commercial.
5. Remove when it is the desired color, it usually takes me 1.5-2 hours.

Definetly appreciate the work of the OP and plan to check the lime and nutrient additions to see how it changes flavors.

Which leads me to other great part of using the oven. You can break the batch down into as many oven safe pots/pans you can fit in your oven and test many things side by side under the same conditions. I usually do 0.25 cup experiments.
 
Yes, I do mean 270. For pure testing purposes, using a bunch of ramekins would be handy. Did you have any problems with boil-over?
 
Hi!

I've been following this and similar threads for some time now, hoping to uncover a working recipe for producing a candi syrup similar quality to d-180/d2. And as far as I have understood this thread focuses on alkalizing the syrup during boiling, avoiding caramelization and enhancing mallaird reactions.

This are very interesting ideas, but I still have and see the same problems everyone else has with these homemade syrups: They also produce high amounts of unfermentable carbohydrates. This renders the syrup unusable for the preferred dry finish of a true belgian dark strong.

The commercial syrups(e.g. d-180) does not suffer from this, but still acheive a very complex taste and profile. So how do they do it!? How do they indeed avoid all these unfermentables, when the flavors by all standards scream of caramel and maillard. As far as my own testing go, and literature read, both caramels and maillard products have severely poor fermentability.

So where are we with this now? Are we any closer to reproducing the amazing dark syrups, key to the holy grail of beers: belgian dark strongs! I am seriously about to go insane if I can't figure this out!
 
JonnyJumpUp said:
Do you mean under 270F?

My procedure is:

1. Mix 1 cup water to 0.75 cup sugar in an oven safe sauce pan.
2. Heat on low heat in a pot on the burner until the sugar is mostly dissolved. BE VERY CAREFUL to not turn the burner up too high or you will get burnt flavors. At the same time I set the stove to 260F.
3. Move the sauce pan with sugar into the oven. Keep an eye on the temp. The first few times I checked with a thermometer but once I got a feel for my oven I don't check anymore. Keep in mind oven thermometers arent always all that accurate.
4. Check the mixture every 5-10 minutes. I usually watch TV and check it every commercial.
5. Remove when it is the desired color, it usually takes me 1.5-2 hours.

Definetly appreciate the work of the OP and plan to check the lime and nutrient additions to see how it changes flavors.

Which leads me to other great part of using the oven. You can break the batch down into as many oven safe pots/pans you can fit in your oven and test many things side by side under the same conditions. I usually do 0.25 cup experiments.
Click to expand...

Do you stir the mixture when you check on it?
 
callemann said:
They also produce high amounts of unfermentable carbohydrates. This renders the syrup unusable for the preferred dry finish of a true belgian dark strong.

The commercial syrups(e.g. d-180) does not suffer from this, but still acheive a very complex taste and profile. So how do they do it!? How do they indeed avoid all these unfermentables, when the flavors by all standards scream of caramel and maillard. As far as my own testing go, and literature read, both caramels and maillard products have severely poor fermentability.
Click to expand...

Mine seems very fermentable. Where do you get the idea that it creates unfermentable sugars.
 

Similar threads

S
Questions after first-ish brew
Replies
26
Views
2K
spectre6000
S
WinterWarlock
What is your preferred acid for making invert sugar?
Replies
4
Views
2K
cyberbackpacker
cyberbackpacker
P
Yet another Keezer Build. But this one is Mine!
Replies
6
Views
3K
prof25
P
N
Second fermentation numbers/issues, copied from other forum
Replies
0
Views
849
naa10104
N
M
Book Review: The Home Brewer's Guide to Vintage Beer / Let's Brew
Replies
0
Views
1K
midlantic
M
Williams Brewing 300

Latest posts

Back
Top