Imperial Stout recipe, what do you think about it?

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aleiexjr

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Hello again, I've finally got the recipe for the Imperial Stout i'm going to brew:


Coronel D.
Imperial Stout


Batch Size: 5.00 gal

Ingredients

5.51 lb Munich Malt
5.51 lb Vienna Malt
1.10 lb Carafa I
1.10 lb Melanoiden Malt
1.10 lb Smoked Malt

hops

1.00 oz Magnum (60 min)
1.00 oz Northern Brewer (60 min)
1.00 oz Fuggles (45 min)
1.00 oz Fuggles (20 min)
1.00 oz Spalter (10 min)
1.00 oz Spalter (5 min)

Others

2 Cinnamon Stick (Boil 5.0 min) Misc
80.00 gm Mexican chocolate (from oaxaca region) (Boil 5.0 min) Misc
1.10 lb Cane (Beet) Sugar (0.0 SRM) Sugar 7.1 %

yeast
1 Pkgs SafBrew Ale (DCL Yeast #S-33) Yeast-Ale [or maybe It'd be better with SafBrew Specialty Ale (DCL Yeast #T-58)]


Beer Profile (according to beersmith)

Est Original Gravity: 1.081 SG
Est Final Gravity: 1.021 SG
Estimated Alcohol by Vol: 7.9 %
Bitterness: 56.2 IBU
Est Color: 36.7 SRM


---------------

Do you have any sugestions about this recipe? :mug:
 
Seems a little light in the SRM. But I like mine black as midnight. And that is a lot of flavors competing against each other - spice, chocolate, big grainy malt flavor. I would throw some dark grains in there to boost color (roasted barley, black patent, hell even some chocolate). And if you can, get real cane sugar, beet is not the same. I would be interested to see how this one turns out though as written. Smoky, cinnamon, chocolate stout. I can't comment on those particular yeasts as I have not used them.

And what significance is the name Coronel D?
 
I highly sensitive to smoked malt so I can tell from looking at it that it wouldn't be my cup of tea. I'm not sure that its really a stout without something giving a roast flavor. I have had some stouts where the base malts were the darker munich/vienna and that can turn out great. I also agree with superchunk that it sounds like a lot of flavors competing with each other.
 
Actually I'm going to use cane sugar. I also love very very dark stouts, so I may take your sugestion and boost the color with more carafa I malt and more vienna.

Belmont, with which malt could I replace smoked malt?


About the name, it is in honor of General Porfirio Diaz who history has condemned because he became a dictator who boosted Mexican economy and infrastructure, but had no concern for human rights, so his dictatorship was very strong (in fact his government is known as the Porfirian peace). But I named it Coronel D. because when he was Coronel, he fought against Napoleon III's army on the 5 de mayo battle (which btw is NOT Mexican independence day).

He was a strong man and was born on the city I was born (Oaxaca, that's why I'm using chocolate from the region). Besides I chose many diferent flavors because I wish to emulate the feeling of Mole which is a typical dish made of a lot (and I mean a f*ing lot) of spices.
 
These are the available specialty malts at my brewing store:

Carapils (Carafoam)
Carared (crystal 20L)
Caramunch (crystal 40L)
Caramunch III (Crystal 60L)
caraaroma (crystal 150L)
Carafa I (350L)
Carafa III (550L)
toasted barley (I'm not sure this is the english name)
Smoked malt

and these are the base malts available:

Pilsen
Pale ale
vienna
wheat
smoked
munich


So as you can see, I have a very narrow choice spectrum. Based on these malts which do you think I should add or substitute?
 
I might add some coffee then if you don't have roasted barley available. The Carafa III will get you a lot of color points with a small addition but the Carafa malts lack some of the bitterness of roasted barley. Don't remove the smoked malt because of my suggestion. If you want a really complex beer go for it. I was just giving feedback based on what I know and like. But at around 7% of your grist is going to be high for a component that isn't typically in the style. In Wee Heavy's some people(I don't) use smoked malt at 3-5% and that's too much for my taste. Again that's just relative to what I like but wanted to give you something to compare against.
 
hmm coffee sounds tempting... but how much can I add?

Since I haven't used smoked malt I think it would be a good idea to take advice from you, but still if it's going to help make a complex beer as I want, what about adding less roasted malt and perhaps more carafa or melanoiden?
 
I thought roasted barley wasn't an option at your brew shop. A general rule of thumb is to limit your amount of specialty malts by percentage of grist to 10-15% max. If you are looking for more complexity then go with lower volumes of more variety. The different colored crystal malts can add a LOT of complexity and I love a touch of dark crystal in my darker beers. They can give a dark dried fruit flavor like prunes/raisins and even slightly burnt dark fruit like you get from an oatmeal raisin cookie. I like melanoiden malt and think it would go well in an imperial stout. Again, just try to keep your total specialty malts under 15% of the grist. I've heard of people adding a full pot of hot brewed coffee to a 5 gallon batch of porter before and it turned out nice. Other people say to cold steep some grains and you get less bitterness but you want some in an imperial stout.
 
In your listed malts: it probably should be Roasted Barley, not toasted barley. And that IS what makes a stout (it is roasted, but not malted). So, definitely have at least 1/2 pound of roasted barley, then cut back the other dark malts if it is too dark.

I too despise smoked malt.
And I don't see a point for the Melanoiden malt with all that Munich malt in there.
This stout will be dry cause there is no crystal malt, but that's OK.
Be sure to let this malt concoction age for a while before drinking!!
 
If you are going to go the coffee route, basically "dry hop" with ground coffee (buy fresh roasted beans from somewhere nice) in a muslin sack....about 3/4 pound to 5 gal. I think its best if you can secondary in a corny keg and add the coffee there. Then if the flavor gets too intense you can take the coffee out. Remember, it will be really intense for the first couple of days, but after a week or two you will barely notice the coffee flavor/aroma.

Its so good you won't know what to do (and the caffeine/alcohol mixture will make you feel like you can do anything!)
 
Well It seems that I DO have roasted barley, what do you think about switching smoked malt for roasted barley? Because if I add more grains it is going to be more complex than I'd like, I think.

Definitely I'm going to the coffee route, actually there is a specialty coffee "pluma" which to my taste is the second best mexican coffee (after "coatepec") and that would go perfectly with the other ingredients I want to use.
 
I would take out the smoked malt and add the roasted barley fo sho. But 1.1 lbs might be a little astringent. But I'm not a Stout-Master. Let the others steer you in the right direction.

Roasted barley = 90% of what makes a Stout, a stout
 
Well it's not really a stout without roasted barley in my mind. Wouldn't need the coffee as much if you have roasted barley but you can still add it just beware of too much bitterness.
 
I would keep it simple and use the following:

Code:
Style: Imperial Stout
TYPE: All Grain
Taste: (35.0) 

Recipe Specifications
--------------------------
Batch Size: 5.00 gal      
Boil Size: 5.72 gal
Estimated OG: 1.080 SG
Estimated Color: 74.1 EBC
Estimated IBU: 71.6 IBU
Brewhouse Efficiency: 75.00 %
Boil Time: 60 Minutes

Ingredients:
------------
Amount        Item                                                Type         % or IBU      
11.50 lb      Pale Malt (2 Row) US (3.9 EBC)              Grain        76.67 %       
1.00 lb       Carafa I (663.9 EBC)                             Grain        6.67 %        
1.00 lb       Caramel/Crystal Malt - 40L (78.8 EBC)      Grain        6.67 %        
1.00 lb       Wheat Malt, Bel (3.9 EBC)                      Grain        6.67 %        
0.50 lb       Roasted Barley (591.0 EBC)                    Grain        3.33 %        
1.00 oz       Northern Brewer [8.50 %]  (60 min)         Hops         24.4 IBU      
0.50 oz       Magnum [14.00 %]  (60 min)                  Hops         20.1 IBU      
1.00 oz       Fuggles [4.50 %]  (45 min)                    Hops         11.9 IBU      
1.00 oz       Fuggles [4.50 %]  (20 min)                     Hops         7.8 IBU       
1.00 oz       Spalter [4.50 %]  (10 min)                     Hops         4.7 IBU       
1.00 oz       Spalter [4.50 %]  (5 min)                       Hops         2.6 IBU

I just dialed down the initial Magnum a bit. You can go with your original, but it will be a bit higher on the IBU/SG, which you may want. And if your efficiency is a bit lower than the estimated 75% you will have to adjust. Maybe with more cane sugar.

This should give you a nicely balanced Imperial Stout. And if you want to add the other spices, do so as planned. It will be a bit different, but I'm sure with some age it will turn out great.
 
Question:

What is the difference between Carafa and chocolate malt? Is carafa malted or unmalted?
 
Carafa is roasted but the husks are removed reducing the bitterness significantly. So they are typically used when you want to darken something but don't want as much of the roasted flavor. They do still have a roast flavor but lack the bitterness. They do better in a porter, doppelbock, or amber for instance than a roasted barley would because you want the color without the astringency of a roasted barley.
 
Indeed. I had heard that only the Carafa Specials were the dehusked. I guess I just hadn't seen any the shops that I go to carry the regular Carafa I assumed that was what was being used. You might check with your shop to see if this is or isn't the case.
 
Great advice in this thread. I would definitely go with some coffee just because of the quality available to you. You can dial down the roasted malts to balance color/bitterness. Also, I feel like I nitpicker here but I would be remiss if I didn't point out that the 'Colonel' is the proper spelling of the military rank. Just in case you were planning on printing some labels ;)
 
wow, quite a debate here I like it!

suprchunk, I see you sugest using only pale ale malt, honestly I hadn't considered it, but I am waiting for a blonde ale that I brewed with pale ale and it smelled delicious during all the process, but using 11lbs plus the other malts seems like a lot of fermenting sugars, isn't it? However, in february I used vienna malt and loved the flavor, so I'd like to use at least half pound.

About carafa, I also looked at weyermann's site and it seems that the one on my brewing store is not de-husked, but I'm going to ask anyway, if it's de-husked it would be wonderful.

Also the guys at the HBstore told me that It'd be better to use safale US-05 or safbrew s-33 but not T-58, what do you think about it?

I'm going to reformulate this recipe by using pale ale as base malt, a little bit of vienna and wheat malt to add fermentable sugars. Also switching smoked malt for roasted barley and I'll post it again to see what do you guys think.

And thanks opteek, I thought colonel was spelled as in spanish (coronel) but the actual name is General which is spelled the same in both languages :D
 
If it is Carafa I, II, or III it is not de-husked. I believe only the Carafa Special is the de-husked.
Which doesn't really matter for a stout (being de-husked that is). But since you are already adding at least 0.5 lbs of Roasted Barley, whats the point of having Carafa too?

Don't just add something that is dark in color because you want a dark stout beer. Use the ingredient for a purpose. Roasted barley = stout.

I think someone else said in this thread: Carafa Special is great for Porters and Ambers where you don't want the astringency that comes with a highly roasted, un-malted grain (roasted barley).
 
Because I would want some chocolate in there, hence the Carafa I, which is supposed to be almost equivalent. I wasn't throwing it in there just to throw it in there. But you are saying that you want just roasted qualities in an imperial stout and that is it? I don't know about you, but I like chocolate in my RISs. If I was making a dry stout I would probably cut it out and just use roasted. I haven't had a dry imperial stout, but I don't think I would like it too much.
 
If it is Carafa I, II, or III it is not de-husked. I believe only the Carafa Special is the de-husked.

They make a Carafa Special I, II, and III. All of which are sold at what is probably the largest online retailer. The same retailer does not sell the regular carafa. Looking at several other well known online stores that carry Carafa, they only carry one variety of Carafa and it is of the special variety. My LHBS carries Carafa Special II only. I'm sure some shops have the regular variety I was just saying that I was assuming them with my statement earlier because that's all I've ever seen sold anywhere that I shop.

You are right in thinking that the Carafa malts would make a good chocolate substitute. The chocolate at my LHBS is much darker than what I see used in a lot of homebrew recipes so I sometimes substitute the available Carafa Special II for a typical American chocolate malt.
 
If it is Carafa I, II, or III it is not de-husked. I believe only the Carafa Special is the de-husked.

I asked my HBstore and they told me that Carafa I and Carafa III (the ones they sell) are not de-husked, also Weyermann's site has the carafa special on a separate category and it specifies that its de-husked.

So suprchunk's statement is right.
 
I have never tried the Carafa Specials, but will sometime. I'm only a few hours away from Weyermann and need to hit them up for a bunch of grain in the near future. I like the nuttiness that chocolate gives. Have you found the special gives you that? What does it not add that makes it your choice over regular husked chocolate?
 
I asked my HBstore and they told me that Carafa I and Carafa III (the ones they sell) are not de-husked, also Weyermann's site has the carafa special on a separate category and it specifies that its de-husked.

So suprchunk's statement is right.

http://www.northernbrewer.com/default/catalogsearch/result/?q=carafa&x=0&y=0

http://morebeer.com/search?search=carafa&=Search

http://www.williamsbrewing.com/search.cfm

http://www.brewmasterswarehouse.com/search/carafa
 
I have never tried the Carafa Specials, but will sometime. I'm only a few hours away from Weyermann and need to hit them up for a bunch of grain in the near future. I like the nuttiness that chocolate gives. Have you found the special gives you that? What does it not add that makes it your choice over regular husked chocolate?

No the Carafa Special is a pretty mild grain relative to the chocolate and roasted barley that are at my LHBS. Again both of those are much higher in color than I see listed in most recipes. The roast there is over 700 I think and I've seen most be in the 500-600 range. The chocolate is over 500 so I typically substitute the Carafa Special II for it because most people are using a chocolate closer to 400. My store doesn't carry anything like a pale chocolate so I have to order that online if I don't want to adjust the recipe too much.
 
Also, I don't think anyone ever answered your yeast question from earlier. I usually like an English yeast character in my high gravity beers and try to build up a big culture from a vial/pack of liquid yeast. It looks like your only options are dry yeast and that US-05 is possibly the best dry yeast made. It does a much cleaner fermentation and is a relentless yeast. You'll need to pitch a LOT of it for an imperial stout though.

Check this site for a calculation of how much yeast to pitch.

http://www.mrmalty.com/calc/calc.html
 
Here's the updated recipe:

------------

General D.
Imperial Stout



All Grain
5.00 gal

Ingredients

Grains


11.50 lb Pale Malt
1.10 lb Carafa I
1.10 lb Melanoiden Malt
1.00 lb Wheat Malt, Ger
0.75 lb Vienna Malt
0.50 lb Roasted Barley

Hops
1.00 oz Magnum(60 min)
1.00 oz Northern Brewer (60 min)
1.00 oz Fuggles (45 min)
1.00 oz Fuggles (25 min)
1.00 oz Spalter (15 min)
1.00 oz Spalter (5 min)

Misc
2.00 items Cinnamon Stick (Boil 5.0 min)
*100.00 gm Oaxaca's Pluma Coffee (Boil 10.0 min)
100.00 gm Oaxaca's (Mexican) chocolate (Boil 10.0 min)
1.10 lb Cane Sugar

Yeast
2 Pkgs SafAle American S-05 (Fermentis #S-05)



*I still don't know how much coffee to add or if I'll add it at all, so this amount is not definite

Estimated Beer Profile

Est Original Gravity: 1.090 SG
Est Final Gravity: 1.021 SG
Estimated Alcohol by Vol: 9.0 %
Bitterness: 51.4 IBU
Est Color: 39.0 SRM

---------------------

How about it now?
 
Recipe looks good. With that yeast you should mash >154 F, it attenuates pretty well.

About the coffee: This thread about Terrapin's Wake n Bake says to use 4oz coffee grounds for 5 gal, "dry hop" for 2 days then rack off.

The Brewpub here (Copper Creek, y'all) uses at least that much and serves it on the coffee, which I think turns out much better. I would dry hop the coffee grounds in a mesh bag in the serving keg.


Suprchunk - I didn't realize Carafa was Weyermann's chocolate malt (or closest similar product). Let's call it a brain fart.....

Yes, I do like chocolate malt in my non-dry stouts.
 
My HBstore told me that they have both Carafa I and Carafa Special I, so which do you think would be the right one for this beer?
 

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