Anyone mash an IPA at 160?

I was thinking of brewing the Lagunitas IPA clone recipe from "Can You Brew It." The mash temp is supposed to be 160, but that temp scares me more than a carboy full of StarSan foam. Anyone ever mashed an IPA at this temp? Seems nuts to me, but they said (on the show) that it worked out fine and the beer was cloned.

Any experiences with high mash temps on a beer like this?

I have gone as high as 158*F right off the bat.

If you are looking for lots of body and a chewy beer, I say go for it. It's how the scotts roll.

Nope, I mash mine on the other end of the spectrum.

Yeah, use a big grain bill and mash lower.

I mashed a double IPA 3 weeks ago at 160, It took a long time to convert completely and I was about 5 points shy of my target when I got done. If I do this recipe again I will adjust my bill for 70% eff, down from 75.

My recommendation is to do your Iodine tests, and make sure your conversion is complete before starting your sparge.

Bsquared said:

I mashed a double IPA 3 weeks ago at 160, It took a long time to convert completely and I was about 5 points shy of my target when I got done.

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That’s odd. The opposite should be true. 160F is well in the optimum for the a-amylase and as a result the conversion should be much faster and possibly more complete than mashing at 150F.

Kai

I mashed one at 155°F last month. IMO, that's getting right around the limit of where I'd want to be. It's very full bodied. Not overly sweet, but the malty/sweetness character is competing pretty well with the hops. I was at about 75IBU, so maybe if you're getting up near 100IBU, then 160 might be OK.

JKoravos said:

I mashed one at 155°F last month. IMO, that's getting right around the limit of where I'd want to be. It's very full bodied. Not overly sweet, but the malty/sweetness character is competing pretty well with the hops. I was at about 75IBU, so maybe if you're getting up near 100IBU, then 158 might be OK.

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The recipe in question is designed for about 46 IBU's with an OG of 1.060, and calls for WLP002. The mash temp seems crazy, but that's what the brewer from Lagunitas spec'd and that's what Jamil brewed it at as well, though on the show he speculated that it may have been a degree or two cooler. Still it was at least 158.

I'm tempted to try it. What's the worst that could happen, eh?

I listened to that show as well. If they called it cloned at 158 or so, I'd try it. Lagunitas is tasty stuff.

I've mashed stouts at 158, but never an IPA. I had Lagunitas imperial stout the other day. It was like a sherman tank in a bottle.

Kaiser said:

That’s odd. The opposite should be true. 160F is well in the optimum for the a-amylase and as a result the conversion should be much faster and possibly more complete than mashing at 150F.

Kai

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I might have had some thing else going on, but my pH was 5.5. and my water measurements were correct...

But correct me if I'm wrong, but A-amylase cleaves inter alpha glucan residues of 3 or more breaking the Starches up into smaller polysaccharide, maltose and glucose. And it is beta amylase that breaks off maltose from the end of polysaccharides. So if the beta is not working as efficiently then the Iodine test will still be testing positive for the polysaccharide's that the Alfa has made, and that beta has not broken down to small enough subunits to test negative in the Iodine test.

That is how I interpreted what was going on.

Bsquared said:

But correct me if I'm wrong, but A-amylase cleaves inter alpha glucan residues of 3 or more breaking the Starches up into smaller polysaccharide, maltose and glucose. And it is beta amylase that breaks off maltose from the end of polysaccharides. So if the beta is not working as efficiently then the Iodine test will still be testing positive for the polysaccharide's that the Alfa has made, and that beta has not broken down to small enough subunits to test negative in the Iodine test.

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I'd correct you if I understood anything you just said. I might actually be too stupid to brew beer.

I'm with Kai on this, conversion should be complete fairly quickly.

As for the high mash temp and sweetness, the two are not really related. Those long chain sugars that don't get fermented are not very sweet at all. Some say they have zero sweetness. They add more to the body and mouthfeel than they do sweetness.

Don't fear the 160F mash temp. Go for it if you want to clone Lagunitas IPA.

jamilz said:

Don't fear the 160F mash temp. Go for it if you want to clone Lagunitas IPA.

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Well, I'm gonna brew it just as it was suggested. Of course, I can't actually get Lagunitas IPA here so I'll have no idea whether mine gets close to the original, but it'll be beer anyway.

Maybe someone who can might ship a 6 pack to you? I'd be happy to, just not sure I can get them where I live. I'll check.

Bsquared said:

But correct me if I'm wrong, but A-amylase cleaves inter alpha glucan residues of 3 or more breaking the Starches up into smaller polysaccharide, maltose and glucose. And it is beta amylase that breaks off maltose from the end of polysaccharides. So if the beta is not working as efficiently then the Iodine test will still be testing positive for the polysaccharide's that the Alfa has made, and that beta has not broken down to small enough subunits to test negative in the Iodine test.

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The reaction with iodine is gone when straight glucose chains are shorter than about 9 glucose molecules and for branched they can contain up to 60 molecules before there is a color reaction with iodine. a-amylase should have no problem getting them that short. But it may have a hard time getting them shorter as it doesn't have a strong affinity to short glucose chains. (link)

70C or 160F is also the temperature at which the conversion time for malt (generallt 15min or less) is tested. Although if a congress mash is used there was a temperature ramp to 70C during which conversion also happens.

Kai

Thanks for the information, on the Iodine test and mash rates. I'll have to review my notes from that batch. I did my Iodine test a 30min and it came up positive, which surprised me, so I let it go another 15 min until it was complete before starting the mash out.

I guess I was on my jump to conclusions mat, assuming the temp was the culprit, preferentially producing long chain polysaccharide's.

Stunnedmonkey: PM me and I can send you a sixer of Lagunitas IPA, my corner store has it, and if your lucky they will have "A Little Sumpin' Sumpin' Ale" and I can put in a bottle of that, it's awesome.

Caspio was nice enough to ship me several west coast ales...I just opened the box.

There's a Lagunitas IPA in there, likely the only one in Kentucky.

I can't decide whether to drink it now, or brew the CYBI clone recipe and compare...

Rick500 said:

Caspio was nice enough to ship me several west coast ales...I just opened the box.

There's a Lagunitas IPA in there, likely the only one in Kentucky.

I can't decide whether to drink it now, or brew the CYBI clone recipe and compare...

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Brew it and taste them together. If you like IPAs, you'll like the Lagunitas. It's one of the best, imo, but not on an extreme end of the style.

This thread is why I love HBT! One person offers to help out by dropping a sixer in the mail AND it's not necessary because SOMEONE ELSE already has. Imagine what the world would be like if everyone were that cool...

Imagine what the world would be like if everyone were that cool...

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Everyone would be trashed! But in all serious, that's awesome. Lagunitas makes some very good beers. There IPA isn't crazy, it's a very solid enjoyable beer. I almost forget that I actually like IPA's from time to time, because everyone is doing these insane overly hopped beers. Restraint can be a good thing!!

StunnedMonkey said:

I'm tempted to try it. What's the worst that could happen, eh?

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You end up with beer?

jamilz said:

I'm with Kai on this, conversion should be complete fairly quickly.

As for the high mash temp and sweetness, the two are not really related. Those long chain sugars that don't get fermented are not very sweet at all. Some say they have zero sweetness. They add more to the body and mouthfeel than they do sweetness.

Don't fear the 160F mash temp. Go for it if you want to clone Lagunitas IPA.

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*Bows to His Popeness*


It depends how you define "long chain sugars", I suppose. I'd imagine that having a high concentration of 4-5-6 unit chains would provide more sweetness than having a high concentration of 20-30-40 unit chains. I don't have a good sense if either of those situations is probable, but I'd assume the flavor outcome would be significantly different.

On a related note, you could probably get a rough idea of what your distribution of x-unit sugars is for a particular mash temperature if you had good temperature dependent reaction rate data of alpha- and beta-amylase. Branching might make the calculation a little tough, though.

One thing you should do is a fast ferment test (Fast Ferment Test - German Brewing Techniques) which will tell you the attenuation limit. In order to keep sweetness low it is important that the actual beer attenuation is at or close to that attenuation limit. It will help you evaluate your fermentation performance and if a high fg is the result of mashing and not mashing and poor yeast performance.

Kai

My first AG was a mistake in that I mashed at 158-156. At first I thought it was a bit malty, but after a while, everything melded well and I really liked the beer. It could have stood some more hops, and especially more aroma, but I'd go for it. I think it would make a great beer!

Sorry to get a little off track. Also keep in mind that a high mash temperature doesn't make a beer more malty. If you're talking about sweetness, that is from unfermented sugars that taste sweet. I don't consider sweetness = malty. Sweetness is sweetness. Malt character (bready, toasty, etc) is what I call malty. Those are flavors developed by many other things than high mash temp.

Imagine if you were to use malt enzymes to convert rice starch and ferment that. You can use any mash temperature you want. The sugars/dextrins are exactly the same, but the resulting product is never going to taste "malty." High mash temperature does not produce maltiness.

This is one of the first things I learned from Ray Daniels. He kept pushing this fact for years, but it seems (like putting smoke malt in Scottish ales) this one will never die out.

Does the recipe give a predicted FG? Or predicted/target apparent attenuation? I think I'd rather have a target FG than mash temp...both even better.

I was slow to come around but once I did a few FFTs I asked myself why I waited to do them...now they are SOP. Very easy and good info. Half-pint mason jars about 3/4 full work well and the lid works nicely to let pressure out but keep it contained.

If memory serves, the target FG was 1.018. I think I recall Jamil reporting a FG of 1.020 on his batch, though I'll defer to him if he has a different recollection.

After trying BM's Outer Limits IPA, i usually mash my IPA's at 157-158. I personally love it. Of course, i adjust my hop schedule accordingly. Lagunitas does amazing work i'd say go for it!

jamilz said:

This is one of the first things I learned from Ray Daniels. He kept pushing this fact for years, but it seems (like putting smoke malt in Scottish ales) this one will never die out.

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I don't know if you can ever kill this one. The sugars and the maltiness come from the same ingredient, so it makes it very easy to associate the two.

if you mash at 160, use lots of grains to get the o.g. up and hop the shiit out of it! IPA's need that sweet, thick, malt background before it smacks you in the face with LUPULIN!

that is not scientific, but it is true.

Anyway, I brewed this yesterday and indeed mashed at exactly 160. Target OG on mine was 1.061 and actual was 1.062. Fermenting at 67. So far so good.

I'll report back once it's done and let y'all know if it tastes like ass or something.

StunnedMonkey said:

Anyway, I brewed this yesterday and indeed mashed at exactly 160. Target OG on mine was 1.061 and actual was 1.062. Fermenting at 67. So far so good.

I'll report back once it's done and let y'all know if it tastes like ass or something.

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Still waiting for results.

Soperbrew said:

Still waiting for results.

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Well it doesn't taste like ass, so I guess that's something.

I've only started drinking this in the last week or so, but I'm still struggling to come up with a useful description or review. Basically, it tastes like an IPA. I detect nothing in the character or body that suggests that it was mashed at 160. I wish now that I had a Lagunitas IPA here to compare it to, but if I were a betting man I'd say that mine isn't cloned. It's a nice clean beer, no off flavors or oddities, and tastes like a decent homebrewed IPA, but to me there's just something missing.

Actually, all of my lighter brews (Pale Ales and IPA's) tend to seem a little blah to me, a least compared to the Browns, Porters, Stouts, etc, that I brew. I wonder if I need to take a closer look at my water. Perhaps it's time to start making adjustments for specific beers.

StunnedMonkey said:

Anyway, I brewed this yesterday and indeed mashed at exactly 160. Target OG on mine was 1.061 and actual was 1.062.

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Curious about attenuation. What was the FG?

AnOldUR said:

Curious about attenuation. What was the FG?

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Yeah, I guess that would help. It finished at 1.016, which I think was a little lower than what was desired. (Maybe 1.018?) This was with WLP002, and a fermentation temp of 66 or 67. I did not raise the temp after a couple of days like they did on the show. It was left at the original temp the whole time.

It's the Second Spitter IPA in my sig, and oddly it's hopped to nearly the same IBU's as the Serenity Now! IPA that I also have on tap. Yet the Serenity Now! seems far hoppier in both flavor and actual bitterness than the Laugnitas clone. I wonder if the high mash temp affects the hop utilization at all?

It was brewed on 8/23, moved to a secondary and dry hopped on 9/5, and kegged on 9/12. It sat in my second fridge for 10 days getting carbed and was moved to the keezer about a week ago. So we're 5 weeks out from the brew date now.

I bottled my Lagunitas 160 mash brew a few days ago. I did not leave it in the primary for as long as StunnedMonkey did - I got it off the yeast after about 6 days. Secondary was a little longer, around 11 days. Hydro sample was tasty - hope it carbs up close to the original. We'll see in about three weeks.

jamilz said:

As for the high mash temp and sweetness, the two are not really related. Those long chain sugars that don't get fermented are not very sweet at all. Some say they have zero sweetness. They add more to the body and mouthfeel than they do sweetness.

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So what does cause sweetness?
Mashing in a mid to low range and then using yeast that doesn't attenuate as well?

I bottled my Lagunitas IPA clone last week. I mashed at 160F and the OG was 1.063. I used wyeast 1968 yeast, pitched a 2L stirplate starter per 5g carboy, and fermented at 66F for 3 weeks. No secondary.

The FG was 1.024 at bottling.

Kaiser said:

That’s odd. The opposite should be true. 160F is well in the optimum for the a-amylase and as a result the conversion should be much faster and possibly more complete than mashing at 150F.

Kai

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I am with you there.......I did one last weekend at 158 and got about 85% eff.