Attempting Supplication clone

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Im glad this went well for this clone. Is there anything you would do differently next time? Additions or subtractions to the recipe?
 
Im glad this went well for this clone. Is there anything you would do differently next time? Additions or subtractions to the recipe?

In all honesty, I probably wouldn't do anything different if I had to do it over because it all went so well. However, if I did it again and I were going to do something differently, I might have mashed at a higher temperature or pitched the organisms earlier (I did it after one week of regular fermentation) to try to get more sourness. But overall, I'm very happy and will probably copy the recipe exactly if/when I make it again.
 
You guys inspired me, and I brewed up something close to what Vinnie outlined in his response earlier in this thread.

Batch size: 5.50 gallons
Partial mash
3.0 lb American 2-row
3.0 lb light dme
1.0 lb Caramel Malt 40L
1.5 lb Vienna Malt
0.5 lb Carafa Special® TYPE III
.25 lb maltodextrin
1.0 oz Perle (8.2%) - added during boil, boiled 45.0 min
1 tsp yeast nutrient

Wyeast Roeselare Blend

Og: 1.056

Krausen developed after ~24 hours, and shas since grown to 3 inches high. It's beautiful! My question, did you let it sit on the primary yeast cake for 6-12 months? Or did you let primary finish and rack it over after a few weeks-month?
 
I racked mine to a secondary after about a month. I brewed it back in April, and just hit it with with 4 lbs of canned sour cherries last month. I couldn't find fresh sour cherries in the fall, and was torn between the using canned or dried. All of the dried cherries seem to have sunflower oil on them, which I really didn't want to dump into my beer, so ended up with the canned.

I'll admit to sneaking a taste when I added the cherries and it was a very tastey sour brown ale. I'm really looking forward to this one being done in early summer.
 
HopBomb said:
I racked mine to a secondary after about a month. I brewed it back in April, and just hit it with with 4 lbs of canned sour cherries last month. I couldn't find fresh sour cherries in the fall, and was torn between the using canned or dried. All of the dried cherries seem to have sunflower oil on them, which I really didn't want to dump into my beer, so ended up with the canned.

I'll admit to sneaking a taste when I added the cherries and it was a very tastey sour brown ale. I'm really looking forward to this one being done in early summer.

Have you seen signs of refermentation since the addition of cherries?
 
If using dried cherries, does anyone have suggestions about a) good vendors (no preservatives, other stuff that will mess w/ the beer) and b) dosage? It would seem that a dry # goes farther than a fresh #, but who knows. Thanks.
 
funny you mention this - i bottled a cuvee de tomme inspired sour about a month ago, and tried a bottle after it had sat for 2-3 weeks. it tasted much different than my sample at bottling (delicious and well balanced at bottling, viscous, disjointed, and somewhat popcorny after a few weeks in the bottle). i'm planning on sitting on it for another month before trying another sample in order to let any bottle shock dissipate (and will hopefully have the same results as you!).

So the one that I brewed October of last year (10/2010) was bottled 5 weeks ago. We cork finished it, and while it's not as pretty as it could be, it's been effective. Anyways, we had tried two or three bottles around 2-3 weeks after bottling, and while the beer was good it was very light, even thing. Strange, because the flat sample we drank at bottling was delicious. Anyways, in what seems to have been a drastic change in the beer after 3.5 weeks, all bottles are tasting delicious. They have a beautiful cherry bretty nose, with a flavor very similar, I'd say, to supplication. It's not bitingly sour, but it's definitely notable. Overall, I'm very happy with how it turned out, and it's polled very well among my friends, who seem to love it as well. I feel like we were very fortunate, but I'm also grateful for the advice Vinny gave. I think anyone considering it should give it a go.
 
If using dried cherries, does anyone have suggestions about a) good vendors (no preservatives, other stuff that will mess w/ the beer) and b) dosage? It would seem that a dry # goes farther than a fresh #, but who knows. Thanks.

I just purchased a 10# bulk box from Shoreline Fruit ($82.50), I emailed about 5 vendors and they all seem to use Sunflower/Safflower Oil on their dried cherries since it helps in the drying process. However, Shoreline has assured me nothing is added to their "unsweetened" tart cherries. It was also the cheapest per pound price I found online, though you need to email them to find the 10# bulk box. I am still awaiting for my shipment, so I can't tell you yet how they taste. However shoreline was very quick with responses and Kristen was a pleasure to talk with on the phone. I have also been told that 1# of dried cherries is equivalent to 6-8#'s of fresh cherries. And the unsweet dried cherries cost more/pound because they contain more fruit per pound. The sweetened ones have a significant amount of sugar that adds to its weight.

Anyway I have 4 different beer styles I will be adding these to. I think I will be using ~2.5#'s per 5 Gallon batches.

Hope this helps! Cheers :mug:
 
I got around to pulling a sample of my batch I brewed on 6/18/2011. The gravity has fallen to 1.012 and I expect it to drop a few more points. Currently the aroma has hints of sourness, but the base brown ale is more dominant. In the taste however, there are only traces of the brown ale. It is very sour in it's current state. I'm very pleased with how this is turning out, can't wait until sour cherry season here in Oregon to add even more flavor and some color to the brew. I also plan on adding .5oz of French Oak and a cup or two of Pinot Noir.

 
I was just listening to the NHC keynote speech that Vinnie gave this year, it was mostly a history of his brewing, but he mentioned something I hadn't heard before... that at Russian River they use only dried fruit. Anyone else heard that before?

Edit: At least one blog I found confirmed it: http://blogs.laweekly.com/squidink/2010/03/easter_beers_russian_river_los.php at first I was thinking he meant frozen since he was talking about how they buy them in large blocks and use a cement mixer to break them up before adding to the beer.

I sat with Vinnie and Natalie at a molecular gastronomy beer dinner featuring RR beers. He told the whole dinner while describing his beers that all of his sours that have fruit added use dried fruit, so I can confirm it.
 
If you use dried fruit you have to be careful and look for cherries or whatever that are not oiled for packaging. That might be hard to find depending on where you live.

From a page back:

I just purchased a 10# bulk box from Shoreline Fruit ($82.50), I emailed about 5 vendors and they all seem to use Sunflower/Safflower Oil on their dried cherries since it helps in the drying process. However, Shoreline has assured me nothing is added to their "unsweetened" tart cherries. It was also the cheapest per pound price I found online, though you need to email them to find the 10# bulk box. I am still awaiting for my shipment, so I can't tell you yet how they taste. However shoreline was very quick with responses and Kristen was a pleasure to talk with on the phone. I have also been told that 1# of dried cherries is equivalent to 6-8#'s of fresh cherries. And the unsweet dried cherries cost more/pound because they contain more fruit per pound. The sweetened ones have a significant amount of sugar that adds to its weight.
 
I bottled 8 gallons of this last night out of my bourbon barrel. It was tasting amazing as I bottled and this may be one of the best beer I have made and by far the best sour. I cant wait for it to carbonate so I can have the first real taste in a month or so.

Chromados
 
Thanks for making this great resource for brewing a Supplication. This thread has been very informative to me.

I just Brewed my batch last week using your guys ideas for this beer. I have one question, since this is my first Sour style beer.

Should i only age the beer on the cherries for a few months and then rerack to another carboy? Or, is it ok to age this for the 12+ months on the cherries the whole time? Any thoughts?
 
Should i only age the beer on the cherries for a few months and then rerack to another carboy? Or, is it ok to age this for the 12+ months on the cherries the whole time? Any thoughts?

As far as I am aware Russian River ages the beer on the fruit from the time it goes into the barrel, until they blend and bottle it. Since fruit flavor fades over time, you usually want to have the beer on fruit until as close to serving as possible. Most brewers who use fresh fruit wait until the beer is already aged before adding it (about a year in the case of traditional lambic brewers). However, dried fruit doesn't have a delicate fresh flavor, so adding them earlier is fine.

Hope it turns out well!
 
Thanks! I will update through the process. Another question, is it necessary to crush the dried fruits? Or just go with whole Dried fruits.

Was there a mention as to which cherry works the best?
 
Thanks! I will update through the process. Another question, is it necessary to crush the dried fruits? Or just go with whole Dried fruits.

Was there a mention as to which cherry works the best?

What about bottling? After sitting for over a year, will there be enough yeasties left to carbonate with priming sugar? I will be cold crashing this thing when the Sach is finished up.

Russian River buys their fruit in big blocks, they use a clean cement mixer to break them up before going into the barrels. Since cherries are pitted there is plenty of access for the microbes, especially given the long aging time. Not sure what specific variety he uses, but he seems more concerned with getting oil-free than anything else.

Year old sour beer will most likely carbonate with just a sugar addition, but a few grams of rehydrated wine yeast wouldn’t be a bad idea as insurance.
 
Just a data point for everyone but Sam's Club has dried Montmorency tart cherries on sale now but they are oiled. The price is right though at roughly 4.50 a pound at my local Sam's. I figured I would try to de-oil them with that fruit cleaner spray and see if that works before putting them in a beer. Worst case scenario is I have some dried oiled cherries for my cereal in the morning.

I've yet to have brewed my Supplication clone yet but it's in the queue.
 
Thanks for the replies guys. I don't know if you get Trader Joes stores where you live but they have them year round, without oil and un-sweetened,

So i assume we want a nice tart cherry then?
 
Well to stick true with the closest clone we would use dried. Yes canned should work great, they use them in wines for hombrew wines.
 
I bottled 8 gallons of this last night out of my bourbon barrel. It was tasting amazing as I bottled and this may be one of the best beer I have made and by far the best sour. I cant wait for it to carbonate so I can have the first real taste in a month or so.

Chromados

Did this carbonate and did you et around to sampling the finished product? Ready for results! :mug:
 
One thing that I didn't see called out here was a pic of a label on one of the pinot wine barrels from the Chow video. It's lists:

25# dried sour cherries
.33 gallons Brett (B & L)

In another post, we've seen that they use 60g barrels. So taking this down to a 5g batch and assuming this rate is the same (or close) for all barrels we get:

Dried Sour Cherries - .4166 #s/gal = 2.08#s (aka 33.33 oz) per 5g batch
Brett (Brux & Lamb) - .0055 gal (pitch)/gal (wort) = .0275 g (aka .1 L or .44 cups) per 5g batch

That pitch rate seems somewhat low to me but then again I have no sense of proper pitching rates for bugs.

Supplication barrel details.jpg
 
I now it's not supplication but there is a video series on morebeer with vinnie where he talks about under pitching. I found it while looking at their consecration clone kit.
 
I would hold off on using RR dregs because they use wine yeast on all but Supplication for priming.

According to their bottle logs, they appear to use Rockpile wine yeast for carbonation. I'm not sure what impact this has to the flavor or the value of the dregs, but good to at least know.
 
I actually looked into this in the fall and emailed Vinnie, etc. I brewed the beer at the end of September, and will probably consider starting to taste it later in the spring. I got similar information regarding the malt schedule, and formulated a recipe based on that.

Do you happen to have the email from him on it? What info was provided and what malt bill did you come up with?
 
I'm about to bottle my Supplication clone this weekend. I can't believe it's been 18 months since I started this project. From the one sample that I've drawn, it tastes great. Great vinous complexity. Will have to do a side by side taste test this fall sometime, after the bottles have had some time to mellow.

Also, I'm corking and caging the bottles to mimic the real thing. Once I get everything bottled I'll start another thread and detail my process and technique if anyone wants to try their own hand at this.

Fun project overall. I get a kick out of showing my non-beer drinking friends the awesomely disgusting pellicle this thing has formed.

Next up: Consecration kit from MoreBeer.

BK
 
I'm about to bottle my Supplication clone this weekend. I can't believe it's been 18 months since I started this project. From the one sample that I've drawn, it tastes great. Great vinous complexity. Will have to do a side by side taste test this fall sometime, after the bottles have had some time to mellow.

Also, I'm corking and caging the bottles to mimic the real thing. Once I get everything bottled I'll start another thread and detail my process and technique if anyone wants to try their own hand at this.

Fun project overall. I get a kick out of showing my non-beer drinking friends the awesomely disgusting pellicle this thing has formed.

Next up: Consecration kit from MoreBeer.

BK

I for one would be very interested in your grain bill, recipe, and process. :mug:
 
I'm about to bottle my Supplication clone this weekend. I can't believe it's been 18 months since I started this project. From the one sample that I've drawn, it tastes great. Great vinous complexity. Will have to do a side by side taste test this fall sometime, after the bottles have had some time to mellow.

Also, I'm corking and caging the bottles to mimic the real thing. Once I get everything bottled I'll start another thread and detail my process and technique if anyone wants to try their own hand at this.

Fun project overall. I get a kick out of showing my non-beer drinking friends the awesomely disgusting pellicle this thing has formed.

Next up: Consecration kit from MoreBeer.

BK

Care to Share how many Lbs of cherries and how many Oz of oak you used? Seems to be a lot of mixed amounts in this thread. I have had mine infected for about 2 months and still figuring out when and how much cherries and oak to put in. Here is my pellicle That has finally started to grow.

IMG_20120701_184356.jpg
 
Care to Share how many Lbs of cherries and how many Oz of oak you used? Seems to be a lot of mixed amounts in this thread. I have had mine infected for about 2 months and still figuring out when and how much cherries and oak to put in. Here is my pellicle That has finally started to grow.

IMG_20120701_184356.jpg

I added 5lbs of cherries (3lbs in puree form, 2lbs fresh frozen) and 2oz of oak (1oz american oak and 1oz french).
 
Thanks so much, I appreciate. Set to brew a Consecration Clone tomorrow, I suppose this will go next in line. :ban:
 
Update on my Supplication clone originally brewed 6/18/2011. It's tasting pretty fantastic. At this point it is over a year old. Today I pulled a sample as well as adding 4 pounds of fresh organic Washington Bing Cherries. Below are my notes:

6/18/2011 – OG was 1.084 before adding water. Collected 4 gallons and then added 1 gallon spring water to equal 5 gallons. The vial of Belgian Sour Mix 1 leaked during transit and was only half full. Went to the store and got another one and another Abbey Aleyeast b/c I forgot to make a starter. Pitched it all along with dregs from 2 bottles of RR Supplication. OG was 1.064 after water was added.

7/3/2011 – Had a huge fermentation then settled after about a week. Set the carboy in water to keep the temps down. Moved out of the water an on to the basement floor. Fermentation seems done, temps are around 68F. It has some nasty bubbles appearing on top. Good signs of an infection.

10/2/11 – Flushed a keg with CO2 3 times to purge O2 and transfered supplication clone. Then purged 3 more times to clear the head space. The gravity reading was 1.013. Reddish-brown in color. Sour aroma with some cherries and red-wine characteristics. A very tiny bit of the brown ale aroma comes through. Doesn’t taste like a brown for sure. Tart, light brown ale flavors and cherry. Not as sour as the aroma would lead you to believe. Some red wine characteristics. Interested to see how another year will effect his beer. The sour cherries would add a nice character to it.

1/30/2012 – Transferred the beer from the keg to a 6 gallon better bottle. Gravity reading was 1.012. A little bit or sourness and cherry in the nose even though cherries haven’t been added! A hint of the brown ale base beer. Very sour with some lactic-ness. This could be very very good. Sour cherries might make it too sour? Dark brown in color with a light-medium amount of light coming through. Taste is more sour than the aroma. Pretty dry and thin (in a good way). Come summer I will ad 3-5 lbs of fresh sour cherries for 3 months minimum.

7/7/12 - Added 4 Pounds of Washington Bing cherries. Gravity reading was 1.010. The taste is very simalr to 1/30/2012. A little bit of the base brown ale in the nose along with cherries and sourness (despite no cherries being in the beer). Not a hint of the base beer in the taste. Very sour, cherries, lactic, tart. Very dry. I'm hoping w/ the cherries and carbonation it will make a fantastic sour beer. It's certainly coming along much better than expected. Very excited. Will let it sit on the cherries until October (~ 3 months), then bottle with Rockpile wine yeast. I should note that I had the real version on draft today and it tastes very close to my version. I think I might skip the Pinot and oak chips.
 
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