How to get the best hop aroma from flameout additions?

Homebrew Talk - Beer, Wine, Mead, & Cider Brewing Discussion Forum

Help Support Homebrew Talk - Beer, Wine, Mead, & Cider Brewing Discussion Forum:

This site may earn a commission from merchant affiliate links, including eBay, Amazon, and others.
Great thread, so it seems like a lot of people have success from adding the flame out hops after cooling to 170-180 then letting steep for 20-30 minutes. I will try this on an IPA this weekend. I'm going to remove my FWH and late additions (15-5) after chilling to 170-180 but before adding the flame out hops to steep for 30 minutes.
 
I saw in a British forum that the brewer of Thornbridge leaves the late addition pretty much simmer for 20 minutes or so when making Kipling. And it's a cracking beer that one.
 
Bit of an old thread, but I was wondering about how this process of cooling to 180F or lower and then doing a hop stand affects the cold break. Isn't the idea of getting a good cold break based on cooling rapidly? Or is it still good to chill down to 180F or so, do a 30-minute hop stand, and then chill from there to pitching temp?

Answer if you know, but I'll also try to come back with my own experience after I brew this week. My plan is to cut the flame after a 90-minute boil, pull the hop spider, chill with my IC to 180F, then do a new spider bag with my aroma addition for 30 mins (covered). Then I'll pull that bag and chill the rest of the way, then whirlpool for 45 mins to allow the trub to cone up, and then drain to my fermenter. I'm going for a maxed-out IIPA, so if this all works harmoniously I'll have myself a house method. :)
 
By now I've read so many British forums talking about simmering 20 minutes at 75-85c that I can't think it would go wrong. Plus probably saves some hops in the dry hopping.
 
JKaranka said:
By now I've read so many British forums talking about simmering 20 minutes at 75-85c that I can't think it would go wrong. Plus probably saves some hops in the dry hopping.
Click to expand...

Maybe, depending on what you're looking for. I may be mistaken, but my understanding is that dry hops and aroma hops will give different characteristics (flavor vs. aroma). There's obviously a lot of overlap, but this is one of those things that I wish I could do a scientific side-by-side test for.
 
JKaranka said:
By now I've read so many British forums talking about simmering 20 minutes at 75-85c that I can't think it would go wrong. Plus probably saves some hops in the dry hopping.
Click to expand...

You may have read them, but some of us haven't. Please enlighten us on what is being said in similar discussions.

SilverZero said:
Maybe, depending on what you're looking for. I may be mistaken, but my understanding is that dry hops and aroma hops will give different characteristics (flavor vs. aroma). There's obviously a lot of overlap, but this is one of those things that I wish I could do a scientific side-by-side test for.
Click to expand...

?????? Hops added at strike-out are aroma hops. That's what you get from dry hopping too. There are no flavor hops being discussed here. However, I will agree that both aroma hops and dry hopping do produce different results.
 
Calder said:
?????? Hops added at strike-out are aroma hops. That's what you get from dry hopping too. There are no flavor hops being discussed here. However, I will agree that both aroma hops and dry hopping do produce different results.
Click to expand...

If I understand correctly, his context is flameout hops when a hopstand is utilized, adds bitterness. if you cool immediately then you are right and it is strictly aroma hops in theory (based on how quickly you really are cooling)

I still dont have a good understanding of the relationship of DMS and a hopstand (or hot whirlpooling ) when covering the volume.

If You can still create DMS after a 90 min boil by hopstanding (hot whirlpooling) before chilling, I will throw my flameout hops back 10 min and chill on flameout. I believe 6 mo ago when I brewed a pale ale I did flameout hops, I cannot recall if I did a hopstand or cooled immediately, all I know is I did not notice DMS in the final beer
 
KaSaBiS said:
If I understand correctly, his context is flameout hops when a hopstand is utilized, adds bitterness. if you cool immediately then you are right and it is strictly aroma hops in theory (based on how quickly you really are cooling)

I still dont have a good understanding of the relationship of DMS and a hopstand (or hot whirlpooling ) when covering the volume.

If You can still create DMS after a 90 min boil by hopstanding (hot whirlpooling) before chilling, I will throw my flameout hops back 10 min and chill on flameout. I believe 6 mo ago when I brewed a pale ale I did flameout hops, I cannot recall if I did a hopstand or cooled immediately, all I know is I did not notice DMS in the final beer
Click to expand...

MY understanding is that the DMS precursors are all driven off by a good rolling boil of 90 minutes, probably even by 60 minutes, so covering and such will be fine since there are no more DMS precursors left. I don't bother covering all the same because I have never had a problem with infection, but it's certainly safer to cover. I think it's been said in this and other threads that DMS won't be produced very significantly after a longer uncovered boil. Correct me if I'm incorrect.

Further reading (which may confirm or deny what I have said): https://www.homebrewtalk.com/wiki/index.php/DMS#Causes_of_DMS
 
Great thread, it inspired me to experiment last weekend.

In a fairly low gravity IPA, I boiled with some bittering and then did not add any other hops until flameout. I wanted to get some flavor, so rather than cooling first, I just dumped in my 3 ounces, including, cascade, citra and galaxy.

Just tasted my gravity reading last night, whoa, what great hop flavor and aroma. A very clean bitter as well. I'll be dry hopping next week.
 
This is a great thread. I've never purposefully tried a hop stand/steep but am convinced it will make a world of difference from a hop-presence perspective.
 
Well crap...what a great thread, a lot of experiences shared, but of course 1 week late for me. I just brewed a 10g batch of Pliny The Elder clone which had I think 5oz of Simcoe added at FO. I wish I would have seen this as I would have let that FO addition stand longer before chilling to the fermenter.

This is going to throw me into a slew of experiments that will consume time, and thankfully beer. :mug:
 
I did a hot stand with my last brew, a pale ale with .5oz Magnum for bittering, .5oz citra at 2minutes, then an oz each of Amarillo and Citra whirlpooled at ~180F for 25 minutes. Brewed it two weeks ago today, kegged it Sunday with 1oz citra leaf, sipping a partially carbed sample tonight, and it may be my best beer to date. The hop flavor and aroma is what's been missing from my previous IPA/APA batches. Awesome thread!
 
My last three batches had no late addition boil hops and large flame out and dry hop additions, all IPA's. I've tasted one so far and have to say it turned out with great hop flavor and aroma. I plan on doing more of this with my future IPA's.
 
Does anybody make hop teas when bottling? Tried this with an IPA that I felt was a bit underhopped and worked out nicely. Literally made a cup of tea but with hops, left it simmer for ten minutes and chucked in with the priming sugar into the cask I use for bottling.
 
JKaranka said:
Does anybody make hop teas when bottling? Tried this with an IPA that I felt was a bit underhopped and worked out nicely. Literally made a cup of tea but with hops, left it simmer for ten minutes and chucked in with the priming sugar into the cask I use for bottling.
Click to expand...

Hop tea will give you almost the same results as doing a hop stand, because they're basically the same process except you are slightly diluting your beer just before pitching with the tea method. Right?
 
JKaranka said:
Does anybody make hop teas when bottling? Tried this with an IPA that I felt was a bit underhopped and worked out nicely. Literally made a cup of tea but with hops, left it simmer for ten minutes and chucked in with the priming sugar into the cask I use for bottling.
Click to expand...

I've been wondering about this technique. Does it give more bitterness or just flavor and aroma? I might give this a try in my kegs instead of dry hopping.
 
wobdee said:
I've been wondering about this technique. Does it give more bitterness or just flavor and aroma? I might give this a try in my kegs instead of dry hopping.
Click to expand...

There are several threads about hop tea vs. dry hopping. This, for example. My understanding is that hop oils isomerize at exponentially decreasing rates as temperature goes down, meaning that by the time your wort is at 180F your isomerization is quite low, so bitterness addition would be minimal.

So if you make hop tea, use water that's at or below 180F. My lingering question is whether water will give you as much hop extraction as wort does.
 
SilverZero said:
There are several threads about hop tea vs. dry hopping. This, for example. My understanding is that hop oils isomerize at exponentially decreasing rates as temperature goes down, meaning that by the time your wort is at 180F your isomerization is quite low, so bitterness addition would be minimal.

So if you make hop tea, use water that's at or below 180F. My lingering question is whether water will give you as much hop extraction as wort does.
Click to expand...

Thanks, lots of interesting info. What about a Hop Shot? I wonder if this is basically a more potent hop tea?
 
wobdee said:
Thanks, lots of interesting info. What about a Hop Shot? I wonder if this is basically a more potent hop tea?
Click to expand...

Lagunitas' Hop Stoopid uses hop extract (according to the bottle label I just read). It's got nice aroma and good flavor, I'd be happy if my latest IPA comes out with the same levels.
 
Great thread! Brewing an IPA this weekend and I'm thinking about lowing my 60min addition, doing 1oz @ 10 and 5, and 3 @ Flameout. Too bad brewing calculators don't adjust your IBU's (even if it's a small amount) for the flameout additions.
 
SilverZero said:
Lagunitas' Hop Stoopid uses hop extract (according to the bottle label I just read). It's got nice aroma and good flavor, I'd be happy if my latest IPA comes out with the same levels.
Click to expand...

Quite a few craft brewers are using hop extract for bittering since it reduces the amount of hop material in the kettle. I don't believe that any of them are using it for late additions since it is essentially pure alpha-acid without any of the oils which contribute flavor or smell. Feel free to use it for early boil additions but stick to pellets and cones for aroma.
 
Hop extract is a bittering addition. Nothing to do with this thread.
 
Northern Brewer says, "HopShot is CO2-extracted hop resin that can be used for bittering or late additions to boiling wort — treat it just like leaf or pellet hops added during the boil." Hoptech.com has 8 different hop extracts, from a generic bitter to a variety of single-hop varieties.
 
I cooled my wort down to 170 then threw 1 oz of cascade/colombus each for my first time. flavor and aroma kick ass (also did a flameout, 5 and 15 min though so not a control to base from) but I will say my beer has a huge haze im not used to seeing. I am assuming it is from the "rapid dryhop" effect of my 170° had. any thoughts?
 
Subscribing.

Also to add my input, FO hop additions with no cooling would, to me, result in little to no added benefits. You aren't isomerizing for any flavor or bittering and the oils will be pushed out in the primary. A decent steep makes sense if you want to add anything to the beer.

Being at 9000+ ft means I'm pretty close to 180 degrees to begin with! So I'm going to have to give an experimental IPA a shot
 
Well, I'll throw my experiment on the pile.

Just brewed a five-gallon 1.063 IPA last weekend, with the following schedule:

- 1.0 oz Chinook @ 60
- 0.4 oz Cascade, 0.6 oz Citra @ 20
- 0.2 oz Cascade, 0.3 oz Citra @ 10
(flame out, chill to 180°)
- 0.6 oz Cascade, 0.9 oz Citra, steep at 180°-ish for 45 minutes
(chill the rest of the way to pitching temp)

Haven't tasted anything but the unfermented wort, or started on the 2 oz I plan on dry hopping with, but the bathroom where my fermentor sits reeked of sweet, sweet hops all through the active phase of fermentation, so, I'm optimistic the steep served me well...

@KaSaBiS - mine was also super-murky going into the fermentor... I'm hoping it'll drop at least somewhat clear before I rack over to secondary, and I plan on setting aside a half-gallon to secondary in a separate container without the dry hops... guess time will tell...
 
Yup.

This is my fourth attempt at an IPA, the previous three having come out mostly tasty but not as hoppy as I was hoping for, so, I'm really pulling all the stops out, here.

But I do plan on holding back that half-gallon in a growler "mini-secondary" without, just to do a solid A/B comparison on the dry hop contribution (and if the rest of the beer comes out even hoppier for using the same dry hops on half a gallon less beer, win-win!)
 
feinbera said:
Yup.

This is my fourth attempt at an IPA, the previous three having come out mostly tasty but not as hoppy as I was hoping for, so, I'm really pulling all the stops out, here.

But I do plan on holding back that half-gallon in a growler "mini-secondary" without, just to do a solid A/B comparison on the dry hop contribution (and if the rest of the beer comes out even hoppier for using the same dry hops on half a gallon less beer, win-win!)
Click to expand...

Like you, my first few IPA's just weren't "there." They didn't have that zingy, pour a pint and the room stinks aroma that the IPA's I spend 12 bucks a sixer on have. I made a strongish pale ale (or is it a lighter IPA?) with, in addition to a bittering charge of Magnum and .5oz of citra at 2 minutes, a 20 minute whirlpool around 170 with an oz each of citra and Amarillo...bam, pro-tasting pale!

I think you'll be pleased!
 
kingwood-kid said:
Northern Brewer says, "HopShot is CO2-extracted hop resin that can be used for bittering or late additions to boiling wort — treat it just like leaf or pellet hops added during the boil." Hoptech.com has 8 different hop extracts, from a generic bitter to a variety of single-hop varieties.
Click to expand...

There is a difference between hop extract, and hop oil. Hop extract is used for bittering; it contributes no flavor or aroma to the final beer. Hop oils are used for flavor and aroma contribution. They've been using hop oils to replace/supplement dry hop additions in Europe for a long time, but I'm not sure how popular the practice is with American breweries.

I obtained some Cascade hop oil recently that I intend to use "dry hopping" an upcoming beer, and then do a write-up on it.
 
ocluke said:
There is a difference between hop extract, and hop oil. Hop extract is used for bittering; it contributes no flavor or aroma to the final beer. Hop oils are used for flavor and aroma contribution. They've been using hop oils to replace/supplement dry hop additions in Europe for a long time, but I'm not sure how popular the practice is with American breweries.

I obtained some Cascade hop oil recently that I intend to use "dry hopping" an upcoming beer, and then do a write-up on it.
Click to expand...

Where did you obtain the hop oil?
 
I've read through this whole thread and come to the conclusion that cooling the wort down to 180, adding (flameout) hops, and covering to let steep is a great way to improve aroma and taste. However, here's my question...Will this effect clarity? You always hear how you should cool the wort as quickly as possible to pitching temps. The quicker you cool the clearer your beer will be in the end. If you let the hops steep at 180 for approx 45 minutes, wont this lead to a chill hazed/cloudy final product?
 
JeffoC6 said:
I've read through this whole thread and come to the conclusion that cooling the wort down to 180, adding (flameout) hops, and covering to let steep is a great way to improve aroma and taste. However, here's my question...Will this effect clarity? You always hear how you should cool the wort as quickly as possible to pitching temps. The quicker you cool the clearer your beer will be in the end. If you let the hops steep at 180 for approx 45 minutes, wont this lead to a chill hazed/cloudy final product?
Click to expand...

My understanding is that no-chill brewers can get perfectly clear beer. Always? Maybe not, but then again I chill fast (7 minutes to 65F), use late boil fining agents (whirlfloc, supermoss, or irish moss), whirlpool, and typically no aroma steep AND I STILL seek the almighty, perfectly-clear beer :D.

I believe that lots of extra-late addition and dry hops are contributors to slightly hazy beer regardless of method. Even most commercial version IPAs have some haziness to them, and these beers sometimes get some big clarifying treatments in their process.
 
I did a hop stand with my last batch (Ruination clone), adding 2oz Centennial at flame out, stirring occasionally while keeping temperature at 190F for 30 mins, then cooling with a wort chiller.

Took a sample one week post pitch (Wyeast London ESB yeast, very fast fermenter), and the hop aroma/taste was fantastic! The aroma was especially surprising, considering I hadn't even dry hopped yet.

A note on the BYO article linked above, talking about the Rock Bottom R&B study... the book For the Love of Hops talks about the same study, and points out that 1 lb of hops (per barrel) was used in each of the four cases. So, 1 lb stand for 50 mins, 1 lb stand for 80 mins, .5 lbs for 80 and .5 lbs for dry hop, and 1 lb for dry hop.
 

Similar threads

H
Incognito vs Spectrum in Dip hopping processes
Replies
0
Views
183
HT Shen
H
theirondude
Adding Hops
Replies
3
Views
216
flipster
flipster
refect
Measuring Kettle PH
Replies
25
Views
1K
Indian_villager
I
H
No aroma after dry hopping
Replies
7
Views
2K
Panderson1
Panderson1
CyberFox
No aroma from 6 oz dry hop. What gives?!
Replies
38
Views
4K
CyberFox
CyberFox
Yakima 300

Latest posts

Back
Top