Aging Sours in Better Bottles?

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jalgayer

jalgayer

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I see a lot of people saying not to use plastic buckets but no mention that I can find for using a better bottle for age a sour for the 8-12 months it will be sitting.

I thought that the better bottles were much less (enough?) impermeable to oxygen.

Can I do this, will it affect the sour, has anyone done this?
 
I've used better bottles for two sours and my 3rd (which has been camping out up on top of the fridge for 11 months) is nearly ready to bottle. They work great IMO.
 
jkarp said:
I've used better bottles for two sours and my 3rd (which has been camping out up on top of the fridge for 11 months) is nearly ready to bottle. They work great IMO.
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Agreed, I’ve had great luck using them to age sour beers. Although from talking to the company using them you won’t get much more oxygen than if you used glass. The wider mouth makes adding fruit much easier though, and not having a breakable vessel makes me feel better.

Honestly people get too obsessed with the oxygen permeability numbers, in my experience that is one of the least important factors in making a sour beer. Pretty much the only thing you can’t get without oxygen is acetic acid (vinegar), which I really don’t want in my sours anyway.
 
Duchesse De Bourgogne is a Flanders Red, but it's a bit sweeter and the sourness is a little more vinegary than many other examples of the style (to me, anyway). If you like it you'll probably like other Flanders Reds as well.

Read Oldsock's blog, it is absolutely fantastic.
 
Sweet, thanks.
Now... any tried and true recipes? I see a few that you tried oldsock (great post you gave thanks!!) but what would be the one you would most suggest I try?
 
jalgayer said:
Sweet, thanks.
Now... any tried and true recipes? I see a few that you tried oldsock (great post you gave thanks!!) but what would be the one you would most suggest I try?
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Here is our basic recipe for the excellent barrel beer (the specifics aren't especially important):

OG 1.060
Base Malt (amount as needed to reach OG), equal parts Pils/Munich/Vienna (imported preferred, but domestic 2-row varieties are acceptable)
1 lb Wheat Malt
1 lb Medium Crystal (Crystal 60, or Caramunich)
.5 lbs Dark Crystal (Special B, CaraAroma, or Crystal 120)
Mash @ 157 for 60 min

90 minute boil with 15 IBUs of the hop of your choice to bitter (anything except citrusy American hops).

Pitch the primary yeast of your choice (doesn't really matter) along with a pack of Roeselare Blend and the dregs for a couple good sours. Rack to secondary after a few weeks, add an ounce or two of oak and leave it along for 12-18 months. Prime, re-yeast, and bottle.
 
If I am going partial mash what would you say are the most important malts to keep? I can go ~5.5lbs. Then extract the rest. Also any tips on type of extract?
 
Keep the crystal and then do 2 lbs each Munich and Vienna. Then 2 lbs of wheat extract, plus as much pale/light/pils extract as it takes to reach the OG (depending on partial mash efficiency). Let me know if any other issues come up.
 
Thanks, Oldstock.

The area of sours is so underdeveloped. In most books there is little to no information. Even on this forum there are only a few recipes.

And when it takes 2 years to really know if what you did worked or not - its tough! Because who knows WHAT it was along the 2 years that went wrong.

Next questions. When I rack to secondary:

(1) Should I aim to leave as little head space as possible?
(2) Should I use a regular air lock?
(3) What should I do as far as too much/little oxygen getting in?
(4) I have a basement that generally is at 65-72 in the summer. Is that ok? The house is a fairly constant 65ish the other months.

Thanks for helping. I want to do this as "right" as possible as it would suck to open a bottle in 2 years only to find that something went wrong that would have been easy to avoid.

I really appreciate the help.
 
(1) Should I aim to leave as little head space as possible?
- Headsapce isn't a big issue, I've had fine results with beers almost up to the brim and down a gallon.

(2) Should I use a regular air lock?
- I do, just make sure it doesn't run dry.

(3) What should I do as far as too much/little oxygen getting in?
- Don't take samples too often, not much else to do.

(4) I have a basement that generally is at 65-72 in the summer. Is that ok? The house is a fairly constant 65ish the other months.
- That's fine, lambic brewers often don't have temp control. My basement probably gets even warmer than that, I wouldn't get worried unless it starts pushing 80.

Hope that helps.
 
That is AWESOME. Thanks a ton. Ok. Here are my next questions :)

[1] Would fuggles be an ok hop to use?
[2] You said about any yeast in conjunction with the wild yeast. Would the Wyeast german ale yeast be ok?
[3] When adding dregs - what about adding the whole bottle? If not... how is best way to add dregs?

I sincerely appreciate you helping me. Pumped!
 
jalgayer said:
That is AWESOME. Thanks a ton. Ok. Here are my next questions :)

[1] Would fuggles be an ok hop to use?
[2] You said about any yeast in conjunction with the wild yeast. Would the Wyeast german ale yeast be ok?
[3] When adding dregs - what about adding the whole bottle? If not... how is best way to add dregs?

I sincerely appreciate you helping me. Pumped!
Click to expand...

I'm sure Mike'll chime in, but from what I understand:
(1) Should be fine.
(2) Yes.
(3) Leave the bottle upright in the fridge overnight, pour all but the last 1/2" gently and drink, swirl the bottle to mix, pitch the last 1/2".
EDIT: Might be a good idea to spray the neck/bottlecap with StarSan before opening.
 
Thanks. I have seen the bottle top "flamed" as well. I understand the basics of thedregs just wasnt sure if I could add whole bottle and what that would do
 
jalgayer said:
Thanks. I have seen the bottle top "flamed" as well. I understand the basics of thedregs just wasnt sure if I could add whole bottle and what that would do
Click to expand...

Agreed with Summer, on all three answers.

I don't sanitize the bottle neck for sour dregs, you can, but that is a bigger deal when trying to harvest a clean strain (there aren't many microbes that can damage a beer when you are adding brett/lacto/pedio).
 
Makes sense guys. Great advice. There is just so much less out there on this subject. I have 5 books and there is maybe a TOTAL of 2 pages.
 
Is it safe to use the Better Bottle for non-sour beers after it's been sanitized (assuming that I don't use a carboy brush, or anything abrasive to clean the BB)?
 
Pickngrin said:
Is it safe to use the Better Bottle for non-sour beers after it's been sanitized (assuming that I don't use a carboy brush, or anything abrasive to clean the BB)?
Click to expand...

Yep, although I am extra careful. After transferring a sour out I'll usually give them a long soak in hot water and PBW/Oxyclean Free/TSP to remove the "crud" followed by a few more hours with Star-San, then repeat both steps before putting a clean beer in. It may be overkill, but I thinks its worth the peace of mind.

The only stuff I keep separate are the things with small spaces I can't see (bottling wand, auto-siphon, tubing etc...) everything else gets shared.
 
Oldsock said:
Yep, although I am extra careful. After transferring a sour out I'll usually give them a long soak in hot water and PBW/Oxyclean Free/TSP to remove the "crud" followed by a few more hours with Star-San, then repeat both steps before putting a clean beer in. It may be overkill, but I thinks its worth the peace of mind.

The only stuff I keep separate are the things with small spaces I can't see (bottling wand, auto-siphon, tubing etc...) everything else gets shared.
Click to expand...
Call me old fashioned but I prefer glass. When my brush hits the glass I know it's scraping a year and a half's worth of brett lacto and pedio out of the carboy and its GONE. Period. That way I can use the same carboy for non-funked beers if needed. I don't have experience with the plastic carboys but I just can't believe that all of that funk is going to get extracted. I could be wrong though. My carboys are pretty nasty after a year and a half.
 
If you do use a better bottle you might as well designate it as a sour container. Although you could use it for another beer, if you have the money you might as well separate it to be safe.
I am using a 5 gallon carboy with a normal airlock. It obviously obtained enough oxygen cause after 10 months its nicely soured but not overboard.

To get a beer like duchess that would be a feat. I'd assume you'd have to add a ton of cherries and let it go for a few years to even get close
 
mattyp1214 said:
If you do use a better bottle you might as well designate it as a sour container. Although you could use it for another beer, if you have the money you might as well separate it to be safe.
I am using a 5 gallon carboy with a normal airlock. It obviously obtained enough oxygen cause after 10 months its nicely soured but not overboard.

To get a beer like duchess that would be a feat. I'd assume you'd have to add a ton of cherries and let it go for a few years to even get close
Click to expand...

Oxygen actually inhibits lactic acid bacteria, so getting sourness isn't an indication that any oxygen is getting through. Getting acetic acid (that is to say vinegar, which Duchess certainly has) would be an indication that oxygen is getting through since acetobacter are aerobic. Duchess doesn't have any cherries, so that certainly wouldn't be required. What is difficult is getting that sweet sour balance that many commercial Flanders Reds have, they do it by blending (and sometimes back sweetening) and then pasteurizing to prevent refermentation of the sugars.

My big concern with glass is breakage, I'd rather run the small risk of losing a young beer to infection rather than an old sour beer to a cracked carboy. Luckily the one glass carboy I broke was intact enough to save the beer (the oak peg through the neck of the carboy expanded and cracked off a chunk while aging a Flanders Red).
 
Another question...

So will I basically need TWO carboys to dedicate to sours? One for primary and one for seconday?
 
jalgayer said:
Another question...

So will I basically need TWO carboys to dedicate to sours? One for primary and one for seconday?
Click to expand...

Depends on your process and your paranoia levels. Many primary with regular sacch and add sour blends or pure brett to secondary. In that case, the primary fermenter wouldn't see anything out of the ordinary.

A lot of people also pitch low amounts of the other bugs into primary. If you are going to go that route, you may want to consider a dedicated fermenter, but as Oldsock has pointed out, you can clean the better bottles sufficiently to minimize the risk.

FWIW, I have made the switch to better bottles, but have three glass carboys still in service. The two 5 gallon ones now contain a flanders red and an oud bruin, the 6.5 gallons one contains a beer fermenting with only brett c for primary. Oldsock, this is the same as your mo betta bretta clone #1 except with a touch more munich. That brett c one will move to a dedicated sour better bottle in a few weeks though. I have enough better bottles and some paranoia, so that better bottle will only see sours for the time being.
 
jalgayer said:
Another question...

So will I basically need TWO carboys to dedicate to sours? One for primary and one for seconday?
Click to expand...

FWIW, in reading up on the matter I've heard from 2 kinds of people on cleaning better bottles to go from sours back to normal beers:
1) The ones who've done it and had no problems;
2) The ones who are super-careful and don't do it.

Noticeably absent are many (any?) people who did it and wound up accidentally infecting a later beer that they attribute to infection carried through a cleaned and sanitized better bottle (or glass carboy), and lots of people who do _tons_ of sours seem to switch back and forth regularly with no issues.

It's the tubing/spigots/autosiphons/etc that seem most worth keeping segregated (as well as anything wooden, obviously), plus buckets just because they're so cheap.
 
ok. you guys are the best.

I want to know what you would suggest I do about this. I only want to 'infect' on eof my better bottles.

Should I

[a] Make the entire flanders in the 5 gallon better bottle that I plan to sacrifice to the sour cause and add both yeasts at the same time?

make it in a 6 gallon carboy with ONLY the regular yeast. Then rack to the 5 gallon bottle and add the rosalare blend.

I have a 5 gal carboy that I scratched a little inside by using a carboy brush before I knew I shouldnt. I figure I may as well use that for sours right?

Any advice or tips on this would be great.
 
well if you want a red that actually gets sour, you need to add the roeselare from the start
 
So then it is the general consensus that people should add BOTH yeast and bacteria at the same time? At least to get a good strong sour ale?

I am just at loss as to what to do. Should I have a dedicated primary AND secondary for sours?

I am ok with whatever I need to do. I just dont want to [a] over spend when not necessary or ruin a beer because I didnt spend on an extra carboy.

I am very pumped. I think that this thread has been helpful and informative to not just me but others that come to this area. Not a lot of posts here and I am glad that this is generating some discussion.

Please continue with input on this thread.
 
Yeah yeast and bacteria at the same time in primary is a good thing -- this is what the Wyeast Lambic and the Wyeast Roselare blends are. However don't feel obligated to make a lambic or a flemish red with either one of those though. You can make a nice malty brown ale with a rustic tart note in less than 6 months with Roselare. I've tasted Belgian Stouts primaried with roselare too.

I think you should experiment with both glass and plastic and see what works for you. There are a ridiculous amount of variables in wild brewing, and we as homebrewers cannot even begin to wraps our heads around all of it. We think we have a handle on it but the guys at Drie Fonteinen and Cantillon just roll their eyes...

Even after you've determined the bugs, the fermentation vessel, the recipe, temperature, etc you'll always have another issue to deal with. The key is to just start experimenting as soon as possible, with several batches, and start tasting them after 6 months. You'll be amazed at how much difference one month will make. You'll without a doubt reach your stride and stick to it after a year or two. Make several different batches and mix up different methods on each one, take lots of notes, and make IPA while you're waiting! :)
 
I'd highly recommend pitching the bugs from the start, if not before the sach if you want a good amount of sourness. My first sour I did I fermented out with sach first and then pitched the bugs in secondary and while it's pretty good, never got as sour as I wanted.

I've done all my sours in better bottles, but they are all dedicated to sours so I can't really help on that question.
 
simcoe4life said:
Yeah yeast and bacteria at the same time in primary is a good thing -- this is what the Wyeast Lambic and the Wyeast Roselare blends are. However don't feel obligated to make a lambic or a flemish red with either one of those though. You can make a nice malty brown ale with a rustic tart note in less than 6 months with Roselare. I've tasted Belgian Stouts primaried with roselare too.

I think you should experiment with both glass and plastic and see what works for you. There are a ridiculous amount of variables in wild brewing, and we as homebrewers cannot even begin to wraps our heads around all of it. We think we have a handle on it but the guys at Drie Fonteinen and Cantillon just roll their eyes...

Even after you've determined the bugs, the fermentation vessel, the recipe, temperature, etc you'll always have another issue to deal with. The key is to just start experimenting as soon as possible, with several batches, and start tasting them after 6 months. You'll be amazed at how much difference one month will make. You'll without a doubt reach your stride and stick to it after a year or two. Make several different batches and mix up different methods on each one, take lots of notes, and make IPA while you're waiting! :)
Click to expand...

I want to come hang out in your cellar! :mug:
 
ok so from what I am gathering, I am essentially going to need to dedicate a primary and secondary to the cause!

I was hoping to only need one... but oh well!
 
The 6 is better bottle.

Can I just throw everything into a 6... both yeasts... And let it ride for a year? Thats too long for a trub right?
 
jalgayer said:
The 6 is better bottle.

Can I just throw everything into a 6... both yeasts... And let it ride for a year? Thats too long for a trub right?
Click to expand...

That's fine for a sour. The bugs will eat the dead yeast. That's how I've done all of mine since the first on the recommendation of a guy that brewed the best sour beer I've ever had, commercial or HB, and I've had good success with it.
 
Sweet. Unless anyone can chime in with a reason NOT to just use one vessel for the whole year and to add both the yeasts all at once... I will be attempting my first sour this month!
 
jalgayer said:
Sweet. Unless anyone can chime in with a reason NOT to just use one vessel for the whole year and to add both the yeasts all at once... I will be attempting my first sour this month!
Click to expand...

Not racking will give a funkier character more in line with a lambic/gueuze (which aren't usually aged) than other sours which are usually racked 1-2 times during aging.

The other issue is that unless you top off you'll have quite a bit of headspace (since you need to leave room for the krausen). Not a big deal, but try to avoid opening the stopper too often.
 
I'm doing a Flanders Red soon from Jamil's Brewing Classic Styles. His recipe just used the Roselare blend, and doesn't even pitch regular sacchromyces. (sp)
 

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