This is probably going to start a riot but...

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japroto

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So let me begin by saying that I think proper sanitation and sterilization is a very important part of producing consistent brews.

However, sterilization, the complete removal of microorganisms, which is almost impossible to achieve unless you use lab grade equipment such as chlroine gas or a large autoclave is nearly impossible to achieve. As homebrewers we do the best that we can using products like starsan, iodine or bleach but microoganisms are still left behind and are most likely introduced again through the air when drying your equipment.

After reading a number of books on natural/wild/open fermentation, I contend that sterilization is not as important as proper sanitation, cleaning the surface that comes in contact with your ferment with, at a minimum hot water, and dare I say it, small amounts of soap.

For example, in the Art of Fermentation the author only sanitzies using water and soap and doesn't go to through the extra steps of sterlization and doesn't run into issues with his ferments. Strange right? And definietly not in alignment with what we have been told about proper cleaning methods.

The author says that the most important thing is to provide a relatively clean environment for the ferment and provide the conditions necessary for the yeast to establish a healthy colony, whether yeast are pitched from a culture or introduced through open fermentation. Once the colony is established then there is not a lot of room in the ferment "eco-system" for other bugs/competitors to take hold...survival of the fittest in action. The crucial part is establishing a healthy colony and sterilization definitely works to your favor but is not a requirement.

I have tried this myself and had similar success using only proper sanitation with no sterilization on smaller fermentation projects. This makes sense if we reflect upon how beer and other ferments used to be made not too long ago without the use of modern sterilization techniques.
 
I can't see why this will start a riot. I'm fairly confident that most do not believe in fully sterilizing brewing equipment and feel proper sanitization is sufficient. However, in your Art of Fermentation example the author appears to be cleaning with soap and water. I wouldn't call that sanitization.
 
So let me begin by saying that I think proper sanitation and sterilization is a very important part of producing consistent brews.

However, sterilization, the complete removal of microorganisms, which is almost impossible to achieve unless you use lab grade equipment such as chlroine gas or a large autoclave is nearly impossible to achieve. As homebrewers we do the best that we can using products like starsan, iodine or bleach but microoganisms are still left behind and are most likely introduced again through the air when drying your equipment.

After reading a number of books on natural/wild/open fermentation, I contend that sterilization is not as important as proper sanitation, cleaning the surface that comes in contact with your ferment with, at a minimum hot water, and dare I say it, small amounts of soap.

For example, in the Art of Fermentation the author only sanitzies using water and soap and doesn't go to through the extra steps of sterlization and doesn't run into issues with his ferments. Strange right? And definietly not in alignment with what we have been told about proper cleaning methods.

The author says that the most important thing is to provide a relatively clean environment for the ferment and provide the conditions necessary for the yeast to establish a healthy colony, whether yeast are pitched from a culture or introduced through open fermentation. Once the colony is established then there is not a lot of room in the ferment "eco-system" for other bugs/competitors to take hold...survival of the fittest in action. The crucial part is establishing a healthy colony and sterilization definitely works to your favor but is not a requirement.

I have tried this myself and had similar success using only proper sanitation with no sterilization on smaller fermentation projects. This makes sense if we reflect upon how beer and other ferments used to be made not too long ago without the use of modern sterilization techniques.
:confused:

Who says you need to sterilize anything in order to brew? The only time sterilization is needed in brewing is if you're yeast harvesting or culturing.

Edit : That's why this forum is Equipment/Sanitation and not Equipment/Sterilization
 
I can't see why this will start a riot. I'm fairly confident that most do not believe in fully sterilizing brewing equipment and feel proper sanitization is sufficient. However, in your Art of Fermentation example the author appears to be cleaning with soap and water. I wouldn't call that sanitization.

I get the OP's point and the author's point of 'Art of Fermentation.' But as one who has hand an infected beer (bad transfer hose into bottling bucket I think), I'm inclined to not just try and clear away any food for the buggers, but also kill as many as possible.

Sure we leave our spoons and forks and other untensils and eatingware days or weeks without worrying about food contamination when we eat. Why? because there is no food on them for the bacteria to get going on. And our brew equipment should be similar, but there is no guarentte after use that we have everything up to sufficent quality that we get no infections.

I agree, this isn't sufficent to be called sanitation. And both have technical definitions when refering to sanatizing or sterilizing agents (chemicals, heat, etc). These come in to play when the manufactures sell Star San as a 'rated sanatizer' or such. None of what we buy claims to be sterilzers.

I'd submit that the process mentioned simply is 'cleaning'
 
So let me begin by saying that I think proper sanitation and sterilization is a very important part of producing consistent brews...

I'm not going to argue the points you make and I'm not going argue what other people feel is important to them.

For me, proper pitch rate, fermentation temperature, and water quality are way more important in brewing and trying to brew consistent batches. Given an optimal environment, the yeast will take care of the beer. Yes, that includes providing a clean environment for them to work in, but I don't need sterilization and the obsessive sanitation people talk about at times. My efforts are better spent on controlling those other factors and just making sure I clean and spray down whatever touches my beer with some form of sanitizer. You know, I never sanitize my bottle caps and have never had a problem in my 30+ batches. That's well over 1,500 bottles and I have not had a single noticeable infection or inconsistency within a batch. I even ferment with the lid loosely placed on my bucket most of the time.

I'm not proposing people throw caution to the wind when it comes to cleanliness, but you likely don't have to worry about it as much as others may think. Now if you keep your fermentor in a moldy basement, next to your trashcan, or right by your toilet, I'd say, yeah, try to be a little cleaner when checking on it.
 
I tend to follow the same procedure as the OP. The critical cleaning takes place during the boil and as long as the rest of the gear has been washed and dried the yeast that you pitch will overwhelm most other bacteria. Yes it is possible to get a nasty, but beer has been brewed since Pharoah's were in charge and they certainly never sterilized or sanitized, just washed the jug and drove on.

Wheelchair Bob
 
I can't think of a single person who believes brewing requires a sterile environment. Sanitation is critical only in specific area ans steps, and even then, if you cleaned well, your odds of actually getting an infection is still very small. IMO the OP's comments are very likely on par with what most people do.
 
Being relatively sanitary is the best that we can hope for. I think we would all acknowledge that.

Even in the hospital setting, most equipment is 'sanitary' and not sterile. Being sterile is usually only in the operating room, or using invasive equipment (endotracheal tubes, IVs, etc).
 
Everyone mentions the old days of open fermentation when there was no understanding of germ theory as proof that you don't have to be as clean and sanitary as we think. I contend that, given the choice between cholera or some other nasty bug and a slightly off beer due to infection, they'd take the beer every time. Not to mention the other benefits of drinking an alcoholic beverage.
 
I clean after use and sanitize before use. If I get an infected batch I'll use a high chlorine mixture to kill the infection and rinse and dry 3 times before I'll use that fermenter again.
 
It is Really all about control of the environment, Isn't it? Depending on the many factors; native flora, fruit trees in the yard, air flow around the brew area and the like. You are just trying to give your bugs the chance to multiply and the set up camp. depending on the natives, they can be bad or add to the party.
 
Lol, I saw that and my mind actually said "NO HE DIDN"T!!!!"

I expected to look down and see the thread closed!

Where's my pitch fork?

haha, I'll hold off until the riot reaches its zenith (are we there yet?).

To the OP, the only sterilization I know of in the homebrewing circles is creating plates and slant media for growing yeast cultures. I use a pressure cooker to sterilize mine.
 
Did you really have to mention this...really?!!?!? :(:p

Haha! I was just trying to remember when I have actually been "sterile". And only when intubing (and suctioning through the ET tube) and otherwise putting objects into people have I been completely sterile.

When I did other things to patients I was "sanitary". :D


With brewing, I try to be reasonably sanitary. I wash my hands, clean and sanitize my post-boil equipment, and try to keep it sanitary. But let's face it- an unsanitized dog hair or screwdriver (don't ask!) occasionally finds its way in the fermenter with the wort. I've never left a dog hair or a screwdriver inside a patient, though!
 
:Rodney King...Rodney King...Rodney King:

No riot here, common knowledge as far as I'm concerned. Most brewers become less anal about sanitation the longer they brew(within reason).

If I had a dime for every "this fell into my wort, is my beer ok?" thread that ended well I'd be rich. My buddies son threw a snot rag into the bottling bucket of a collabrew we did, thanks Nate. Beer was fine.
 
I can't see why this will start a riot. I'm fairly confident that most do not believe in fully sterilizing brewing equipment and feel proper sanitization is sufficient. However, in your Art of Fermentation example the author appears to be cleaning with soap and water. I wouldn't call that sanitization.

Open any homebrew book and there will be an entire chapter dedicated to proper sanitation/sterilization. Heck there is even a forum section devoted to it on this website ;)
 
Katz is explaining mainly native lactic ferments is the AOF. No reason to sanitize in this case.

True but Katz does recommend the same soap and water cleaning methods for country wines, beers, meads, etc...
 
Open any homebrew book and there will be an entire chapter dedicated to proper sanitation/sterilization. Heck there is even a forum section devoted to it on this website ;)

But Katz's book is NOT a homebrewing book, it's a book on "wildly" fermented foods and beverages written by a self appointed (not sure about his training) "Natural fermentation" and "DIY food expert" who lives in a rural, off-the-grid Radical Faerie community in Tennessee. (I kid you not)

Not exactly a Food Scientist like Harold McGhee at harvard or recognized beer scientist such as UC Davis's, Charles W. Bamforth the Anheuser-Busch Endowed Professor of Malting and Brewing Sciences, whose written a lot on SANITIZATION in brewing sciences.

Like someone above mentioned, Katz is mostly talking about Lacto-fermentations, not CLEAN fermentations of alcohol that is our goal.

Most BREWERS, professional and home, who are not brewing sours are looking to make sure that ONLY the yeast they are choosing to use creates the flavor profile they are desiring, NOT "letting nature take it's course," which in a lot of ways most food fermentations have a larger "wild card factor" into play than what we want to do. And that's why we take great care to SANITIZE not steralize, which seems to be Katz's harping in the book.

You have to realize, Katz is coming from a totally different agenda than most of us here are coming from. Plus his repeated use of the word "steralization" kinda leads me to believe that he really only has a cursory understanding of what we do....

Katz seems to be a pitchman for a certain type of crunchy granola lifestyle in his approach to things. Even Michael Ruhlman in Charcuterie, and the things I've been reading about picklemaking and cheese making from the perspective of homebrewers and chefs, emphasize a certain level and care towards sanitization.

The cursory lookover of the amazon preview of Katz's book kinda gave me the same vibe as this book,

SacredHerbalHealingBeer-Beer-Books-120030634-1.jpg


Which once anyone with any knowledge of homebrewing quickly realizes that the author knows NOTHING about true homebrewing and has a pagan/anti religion/anti contemporary established brewing and religuous practices agenda.

We sometimes get new brewers who know little if anything about actual homebrew coming on much like you quoting the above book as some sort of definitive brewing tome and extolling Buhner's "agenda" as some sort of brewing gospel to cut corners as well, and to rampage against many of our current brewing practices.

You have to realize that Katz's book may be interesting, and may have some merit, in terms of wild and lactic fermentation in foods and SOME beverages, but he's really not talking about what we do here, nor should his "laissez faire" way of doing things for his food or drink be looked at as a good way to brew a "normal" beer.

The biggest question I have for you who had come in with an agenda as well, is How much beer have YOU actually brewed?

I'm not trying to pick a fight, but you're coming in with a sort fo nya nya nya attitude about how so and so says we don't have to "Steralize" when in reality neither you, nor katz seem to realize that in brewing we almost never steralize but we sanitize, and there IS a difference.

And no one's going to start a riot, because we KNOW what we're talking about here, and we basically agree with Katz, steralization is not necessary.
 
Another point not brought up is that we sanatize to control other bacteria so we get the flavor we want. If we don't and get a sour infection, sometimes that is good, but more often it is bad and the beer just tastes bad. Our ancestors used to drink beer that tasted different from what we drink today, and probably it wasn't something today that we'd like to drink
 
Open any homebrew book and there will be an entire chapter dedicated to proper sanitation/sterilization. Heck there is even a forum section devoted to it on this website ;)

Exactly, almost every other source, including most scientists, says sanitization, not sterilization because that is NOT what we are doing, is important.

True but Katz does recommend the same soap and water cleaning methods for country wines, beers, meads, etc...

He may well do that, there are books where people are honestly arguing about the existence of unicorns as well, doesn't make them correct.

All that being said, if you like the method Katz espouses, go ahead and follow his directions. He's not exactly preaching a f-it-all approach. Even he appears to be saying clean the gunk off first. So, he has at least a small understanding that there are things he needs to get rid of on the surface of his vessel before he brews with it. It's your beer, enjoy it, but if someone asks me if sanitization is an important part of brewing, I'm going to tell them yes.

:mug:
 
But Katz's book is NOT a homebrewing book...

ROTFL! Is Revvy really Silky Johnson?
silky_johnson-chappelle.jpg

This is exactly why I chose the title of the post. Where do I even begin to start with a reply!?! Did you even read Katz's book or did you just read the amazon preview? I own the book and recommend anyone serious about brewing get a copy because Katz provides a broader scope of fermentation that is fun and engaging.

Based off of your description of Katz you seem like a biggot,
But Katz...who lives in a rural, off-the-grid Radical Faerie community in Tennessee. (I kid you not)...You have to realize, Katz is coming from a totally different agenda than most of us here are coming from...Katz seems to be a pitchman for a certain type of crunchy granola lifestyle in his approach to things. [/i]

What is this "agenda" that I have that you refer to?
The biggest question I have for you who had come in with an agenda as well, is How much beer have YOU actually brewed?
I don't have an agenda beyond loving homebrew and my fellow homebrewers. I have been brewing for over 3 years, I'm a proud AHA member, own over 15 homebrew books (which I have actually read, the lastest book I read was For the love of hops, Im starting Mitch Steel's IPA next) and brew all grain in a 3 keggel setup. My largest batch of beer was 20 gallons and I have never made a "bad" beer. My only purpose for posting this thread was to spark a conversation and garner honest feedback about other homebrewers experiences around sanitation.

Stop the hate brother and relax... have a homebrew.
 
I do think people go crazy over the sanitation. A common sense approach is probably all that is needed. People will take a swig off a soda bottle leave all kinds of germs on it, leave the bottle on the counter then drink it the next day without any fear of getting sick.
That is just one example of thousands.
I clean and sanitize my gear quite thoroughly but I don't lose sleep over it either.
 
Exactly, almost every other source, including most scientists, says sanitization, not sterilization because that is NOT what we are doing, is important.
He may well do that, there are books where people are honestly arguing about the existence of unicorns as well, doesn't make them correct.

All that being said, if you like the method Katz espouses, go ahead and follow his directions. He's not exactly preaching a f-it-all approach. Even he appears to be saying clean the gunk off first. So, he has at least a small understanding that there are things he needs to get rid of on the surface of his vessel before he brews with it. It's your beer, enjoy it, but if someone asks me if sanitization is an important part of brewing, I'm going to tell them yes.

:mug:

Did you read the original post? The very first line was... "So let me begin by saying that I think proper sanitation and sterilization is a very important part of producing consistent brews. " I did enjoy the unicorn line though
 
ROTFL!
Based off of your description of Katz you seem like a biggot,

And actually, you sound to me like a troll. So I guess we're even. ;)

I'm probably the furthest from a bigot on here, I'm an extremely liberal minister from an extremely liberal denomination, one of the first in the country to ordain women and gays. I have studied and worked with Native American Shamans, Budhist Monks, Pagans, Druids. Sat on interfaith groups with muslim and jewish clerics in the wake of 9-11. I moderated an online discussion on a porn site for a number of years on the topic of sex and spirtuality. I've co-taught human sexuality to medical students with a gay therapist where we led a workshop called "he said, he said" where we had a frank, open dialogue about our sex lives showing how we were similar in more ways than not in the bedroom except in who our chosen sex partners were.

So if that's your definition of a bigot I'm proud to be one. ;)

I was merely referencing the fact that I would hardly count him as a reliable "expert" on brewing science and sanitization. Especially since you and he are referencing something that NONE of us do, which is steralize.
 
Did you read the original post? The very first line was... "So let me begin by saying that I think proper sanitation and sterilization is a very important part of producing consistent brews. " I did enjoy the unicorn line though

Yes, I did. It had me questioning why you started this thread in the first place. :p

I'm also not clear if, now three pages into this, you've figured out that most of us are NOT sterilizing anything. We generally don't have the capability and/or time to take that step, which is often overkill anyway. As cooldood notes, many people do go a little psycho over sanitization, again not, I repeat, NOT, sterilization. If that was your point...agreed, but I lose you after that.

Are we rioting yet?!?!? :confused:

[Lucky Machete is Crying for BLOOD!!!!!]

EDIT: Four, four pages into this blood bath!!!! Also, NOT read the original post?!!? iaproto, I was the FIRST to respond...no respect...absolutely none...[Mutters to Self, Strokes Machete] ;)
 
And actually, you sound to me like a troll. So I guess we're even. ;)

I'm probably the furthest from a bigot on here, I'm an extremely liberal minister from an extremely liberal denomination, one of the first in the country to ordain women and gays. I have studied and worked with Native American Shamans, Budhist Monks, Pagans, Druids. Sat on interfaith groups with muslim and jewish clerics in the wake of 9-11. I moderated an online discussion on a porn site for a number of years on the topic of sex and spirtuality. I've co-taught human sexuality to medical students with a gay therapist where we led a workshop called "he said, he said" where we had a frank, open dialogue about our sex lives showing how we were similar in more ways than not in the bedroom except in who our chosen sex partners were.

So if that's your definition of a bigot I'm proud to be one. ;)

I was merely referencing the fact that I would hardly count him as a reliable "expert" on brewing science and sanitization. Especially since you and he are referencing something that NONE of us do, which is steralize.

Revvy, I'm a bit of a diehard atheist myself, but even I'm liking THIS church!!!! :mug:
 
But Katz's book is NOT a homebrewing book...

I too would recommend that people follow a standard sanitation protocol for brewing beer, especially if the packaged beer will be stored at room T and one plans on repitching. I wouldn't get all hot and bothered if they decided to try it without though. Nor would I imply that a 'Radical Faerie' is, by nature of their political and sexual orientation, not a good candidate for discussing fermentation of any type of product.
 
And actually, you sound to me like a troll. So I guess we're even. ;)

I'm probably the furthest from a bigot on here, I'm an extremely liberal minister from an extremely liberal denomination, one of the first in the country to ordain women and gays. I have studied and worked with Native American Shamans, Budhist Monks, Pagans, Druids. Sat on interfaith groups with muslim and jewish clerics in the wake of 9-11. I moderated an online discussion on a porn site for a number of years on the topic of sex and spirtuality. I've co-taught human sexuality to medical students with a gay therapist where we led a workshop called "he said, he said" where we had a frank, open dialogue about our sex lives showing how we were similar in more ways than not in the bedroom except in who our chosen sex partners were.

So if that's your definition of a bigot I'm proud to be one. ;)

I was merely referencing the fact that I would hardly count him as a reliable "expert" on brewing science and sanitization. Especially since you and he are referencing something that NONE of us do, which is steralize.

According to Charlie Sheen we are all trolls, embrace it. I think you truly missed the spirit and intent of this post, and you are getting "Rev"ed up over something trivial, please reread your post because you are definetly quick to judge and make broad sweeping statements that some may find offensive. Furthermore, Katz was an EXAMPLE of real world application and success. Next time I post on this site I'll be sure to include at least 3 scholarly references in MLA format.
 
Next time I post on this site I'll be sure to include at least 3 scholarly references in MLA format.

Now we're talking!!!! :D

However, of note, I wouldn't consider citing Mr. Sheen in most instances.



Finally, a matter of clarification, is this going to be one of those Molotov cocktail throwing riots or one of those grab a new flat screen TV while stickin’ it to the man riots?!?! :confused:
 
It does sound like you just want to pick a fight with folks. And it seems to me that we all agree with you, even though we're laughing at you, that sterilization isn't important.

The only one seeming to be "reved" up is you.
 
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