I NEED help with my efficiency

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Ztp

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I started brewing a little over a year ago, made the switch to all grain last winter and have slowed down considerably on my brewing because ever since I made the switch to all grain, my efficiency has been horrible. I mean 45-55%! I figured my thermometer was off so I bought a new one, calibrated it and it is still doing absolutely horrible. I know its not so much the crush because I have tried from two different LHBS and ordered one online. I don't know what the heck is wrong. Like today for instance, I brewed a beer that beersmith estimated to be 1.072 and it wound up being 1.054. I know a lot of this is trial and error but I have changed everything up each time I have brewed and nothing has helped my efficiency.

I do a batch sparge, my cooler loses maybe 1-2 degrees over an hour so that should not be the problem.

The beer I have made is good, but everything I brew is all specialty or big brews, and none of them is turning out to be as big as I want them to be.

If anyone has any advice, please give it to me, before I turn this keezer I built last weekend into an Budlight distribution center!!!!! (JK about that last part but I need some help please.) :confused:
 
I usually hit around 80%+ on efficiency. How long are you sparging? Temperature is CRITICAL so make sure your thermometer is working right in the 150F range. I fly sparge for around 1 hour. My friends do it faster and they report as good or better efficiency, but I feel like a slow sparge gets more sugar so I take my time here. I had problems starting out until I bought a CDN thermometer which was more accurate than what I got at the LHBS in the full range of brewing temps...recommend you look at this again. My other thermometer was off by as much as 20F in some ranges...
 
No I have not yet. I just moved down to this area for my first job out of college therefore my resources are are a little sparse. I know batch sparing is not the best way to go, but I know there are some guys that do it and get way better results than me.
 
Batch sparging is never going to get you great efficiency. Have you tried fly sparging?

Sure, it will. Many people routinely get 80-85% with batch sparging. Continuous sparging maybe be marginally more efficient, but normally only 1-2% and not worth changing equipment for. Two of my homebrewing idols, Kai Troester (braukaiser.com) and Denny Conn (dennybrew.com) batch sparge with awesome results.

I'd still look at the crush- I've had some poor crushes from more than one online homebrew store.

One thing that may be a factor is your water chemistry. Do you know your water chemistry, or have you ever taken any pH readings of the mash? What about conversion- have you ever done an iodine test for conversion?
 
I batch sparge and get about 73% pretty consistently.

How long does your runoff and Sparging take? Running it too quickly will cause you to get really poor efficiencies I found. You need to throttle the outlet of the mash tun. First couple batches were in the 50% range until I dialed in the right discharge rate on the runoff
 
i was in your boat (until just recently) for a while, too. i was getting efficiencies in the 60s and occasionally the low 70s. here are some improvements that i credit my new found efficiency (90% :ban:) to.

1. BierMuncher's Hybrid Sparge technique

-https://www.homebrewtalk.com/f36/hybrid-fly-sparge-technique-75454/
-extremely easy to follow through with and works like a charm. i use a simple soup ladle

2. Stirring

-i recently started stirring my mash a lot more. i'll heat my strike water usually 1-2 degrees hotter than it should be in order that i'll be able to stir for 5 or so minutes without going below my desired mash temperature.
-i'll also stir again 30 minutes into the mash. usually at this point, starch conversion is mostly over, so temperature isn't as important.
-i'll mash out at the end of my 60 minute mash and stir vigorously before sparging.

3. Grain Crushing

-i know there's a lot of opinions on the effects that grain crushing has on efficiency, but i am fully convinced that a finer crush significantly increases one's efficiency. my last batch i tightened my rollers up to achieve a finer crush. this allowed me to get my efficiency at 90%. i'm not sure if you own your own grain mill or not, but if you don't, request that your LHBS crushes your grain finer. this helped me a lot! also, make sure to put some rice hulls (these will add 0 sugars/flavors/aromas) to your mash in order to prevent a stuck sparge.

again, these were the three biggest advances in my mashing/sparging process that raised me up to a 90% efficiency.

good luck
 
How long does your runoff and Sparging take? Running it too quickly will cause you to get really poor efficiencies I found.
ummmm . . . wrong!

They call it batch sparging because all the sugars should be converted and in suspension before you run it all off as a batch. Fast or slow shouldn't matter. You can go as fast as you can without getting stuck. Perhaps your lautering before conversion is complete (but my bet would be crush.)
 
Well as far as the thermometer goes it is as accurate as any other, an it should be for the price I paid for it. And as far as water goes I have tried I gallon ozarka bottled, and tap with fairly the same results. I know the temp was correct because I checked with three different thermometers and all showed within a 1 degree differential. Mashed for an hour @ 155, sparged at 168. I even split my sparges water into two seperate rubbings just to see if I could wash a little more sugar off today
 
ummmm . . . wrong!

They call it batch sparging because all the sugars should be converted and in suspension before you run it all off as a batch. Perhaps your lautering before conversion is complete (but my bet would be crush.)

Right. When you batch sparge, you dump in the sparge water (after draining out the first runnings), stir well. Then stir some more. And then maybe a little more. Open the ball valve, vorlauf, and then let 'er rip. There is no reason at all for a slow draining, and channeling is not an issue.

I'm thinking that the major two factors here are more than likely a poor crush, and conversion/mash pH issues.
 
In my first 5 AG batches, I went from 65% to 79% mash efficiency, crush being the single biggest factor. The last 3 batches, I asked the LHBS to tighten it up a bit more, got a few funny looks but hey, it's working.

I know the setting at my LHBS that seems to be working for me so that is what I ask for.

Toy4Rick
 
Toy4Rick said:
In my first 5 AG batches, I went from 65% to 79% mash efficiency, crush being the single biggest factor. The last 3 batches, I asked the LHBS to tighten it up a bit more, got a few funny looks but hey, it's working.

I know the setting at my LHBS that seems to be working for me so that is what I ask for.

Toy4Rick

I'm totally with Yooper! I batch sparge and used to get about 70% consistently, then I got my own mill and began milling my own grain and my efficiency jumped to 81% consistently!
 
Another thing to check, is in the BS software, do you have your hardware and volume losses set correctly? Are you finishing with the amount of wort that the software is set for?. If you make the recipe for 5 gallons and end up with 5.5 gallons the efficiency #'s will be off.
 
I'm totally with Yooper! I batch sparge and used to get about 70% consistently, then I got my own mill and began milling my own grain and my efficiency jumped to 81% consistently!

This is me too! I crush the snot out of my grain with my Corona mill. I have gotten as high as 81% with batch sparging...
 
FYI--unless you're brewing thousands of barrels/year, chasing efficiency may actually be harmful to your beer. Check out the BN podcasts w/ Jamil: eff around 70-75% yields a richer, more flavorful beer. Just sayin'.
 
sketerbuck said:
Batch sparging is never going to get you great efficiency. Have you tried fly sparging?

Wrong! Next question.

I would look at crush first, then volumes. If you are getting a good crush you may just try using a little more water in your process, and boiling a little longer. Also, maybe try running your sparge a little hotter. You can definitely go up to 175ish with no risk of tannin extraction, and the heat will help liquify some of those remaining sugars.
 
Ya I'm just not sure. Like I said I have tried the crush from three different places and the water has come from three different places as well.
 
Getting good efficiency isn't some kind of black art. There are only so many variables. 1. Crush 2. Water - chemistry, volume, temp. 3. Time in mash 4. Sparge - volume, temp.
If you're doing everything right I can't think why you wouldn't hit at least 70%. I would think about obtaining a grain mill. That is usually the path that most AG brewers are led to anyway. Most online providers are more concerned with making sure you don't get a stuck sparge - and selling more grain.
 
The brew I did today was recipe I got off of this site, their OG was 1.068 ( or in that ballpark) and my software came up with 1.072. It's not that I am chasing efficiency, but if something is not working right, or I am doin something wrong I'd just like to know. My first assumption was crush so that's why I tried a different lhbs, then I tried another. While switching water up each time. I was going to build a new manifold but from the reading I did, manifolds don't make that big of a difference when you're batch sparing.
 
What kind of filter setup do you have in your mash tun? I have seen where people have it setup to only filter mostly from the side of the mash tun rather than the center of the grain bed. Resulting in poor efficiency. To solve it they had to stir alot more when adding the sparge water to the mash tun. The one brewer i know jumped his efficiency from 40-50 all the way to 72-78 just by stirring the mash more when adding sparge water.
 
I'm running stainless steel mesh with a coiled copper wire to keep it from collapsing.
 
FYI--unless you're brewing thousands of barrels/year, chasing efficiency may actually be harmful to your beer. Check out the BN podcasts w/ Jamil: eff around 70-75% yields a richer, more flavorful beer. Just sayin'.

I've heard that podcast and agree for the most part. I am perfectly happy with my current efficiency, the beer is great, the grain bill expense has been reduced a bit. I was primarily sharing my experience with the OP and others to show that the quality of the crush can be a big factor in efficiency:)
 
Well I guess I will check my water report, check the crush this next time around and possibly invest in a mill. It's hard for me to justify buying one because I barely have time to brew once a month.
 
Well I guess I will check my water report, check the crush this next time around and possibly invest in a mill. It's hard for me to justify buying one because I barely have time to brew once a month.

You can get a Corona Mill for $20-$30 shipped. I have one, and I love it!
 
duboman said:
I've heard that podcast and agree for the most part. I am perfectly happy with my current efficiency, the beer is great, the grain bill expense has been reduced a bit. I was primarily sharing my experience with the OP and others to show that the quality of the crush can be a big factor in efficiency:)

Good call :)

To the OP: I understand that pH can make a big difference in some cases. Test strips are pretty cheap. You want about 5.2 ideally.
 
Thank you. I will give it a try I guess. Can't do any worse than I am right now.
 
not meaning to hijack the thread, but don't you use the test strips at the beginning of the mash? Since the mash is darker in color, how do you read those test strips? doesn't it just stain the strip?
 
I started brewing a little over a year ago, made the switch to all grain last winter and have slowed down considerably on my brewing because ever since I made the switch to all grain, my efficiency has been horrible. I mean 45-55%! I figured my thermometer was off so I bought a new one, calibrated it and it is still doing absolutely horrible. I know its not so much the crush because I have tried from two different LHBS and ordered one online. I don't know what the heck is wrong. Like today for instance, I brewed a beer that beersmith estimated to be 1.072 and it wound up being 1.054. I know a lot of this is trial and error but I have changed everything up each time I have brewed and nothing has helped my efficiency.

I do a batch sparge, my cooler loses maybe 1-2 degrees over an hour so that should not be the problem.

The beer I have made is good, but everything I brew is all specialty or big brews, and none of them is turning out to be as big as I want them to be.

If anyone has any advice, please give it to me, before I turn this keezer I built last weekend into an Budlight distribution center!!!!! (JK about that last part but I need some help please.) :confused:

Let's talk about the crush. Crush is the #1 culprit in poor efficiency. How do you crush your grains?
 
No I have not yet. I just moved down to this area for my first job out of college therefore my resources are are a little sparse. I know batch sparing is not the best way to go, but I know there are some guys that do it and get way better results than me.

WHAT????? That's crazy talk!
 
I batch sparge and get about 73% pretty consistently.

How long does your runoff and Sparging take? Running it too quickly will cause you to get really poor efficiencies I found. You need to throttle the outlet of the mash tun. First couple batches were in the 50% range until I dialed in the right discharge rate on the runoff

If slowing the runoff improved your efficiency batch sparging, you're doing something wrong. For a 5.5 gal. batch, it takes me a total of 15 min. to vorlauf the mash, run it off, stir in the sparge water, vorlauf that, and run off again. I end up with about 87 gal. of wort in the kettle and 80-85% efficiency. Slowing the runoff in batch sparging should not increase efficiency.
 
FYI--unless you're brewing thousands of barrels/year, chasing efficiency may actually be harmful to your beer. Check out the BN podcasts w/ Jamil: eff around 70-75% yields a richer, more flavorful beer. Just sayin'.

My own experience makes me disagree.
 
I have had it crushed at three different places , do its not my crush, and I would assume it was the lhbs, but I just finished with the third different place with the same results. And I always thought that efficiency may be slightly lower with batch sparging, if that's not the case that's fine, but I simply batch sparge for convenience sake. And I see guys do it all the time with fair results.
 
What kind of filter setup do you have in your mash tun? I have seen where people have it setup to only filter mostly from the side of the mash tun rather than the center of the grain bed. Resulting in poor efficiency. To solve it they had to stir alot more when adding the sparge water to the mash tun. The one brewer i know jumped his efficiency from 40-50 all the way to 72-78 just by stirring the mash more when adding sparge water.

If you're batch sparging, it doesn't matter. That's one of the beauties of batch sparging...it eliminates lauter design as a variable. And no matter what your lauter design, you should always stir the batch sparge water really well.
 
So I'm gonna let er rip next time an see what happens. Pretty sure I read somewhere on here (Apparantly incorrectly) that runoff rate mattered.
 
My two cents: when you get everything else the way you want it (and good luck), try mash stabilizer 5.2. I have found this stuff no good at controlling mash ph, but it'll give you another 5-10% efficiency almost every time. Also, i was too timid with my mill fearing a stuck sparge. I'm milling at .040 and still never had a problem. Next stop: .035!
 
So I'm gonna let er rip next time an see what happens. Pretty sure I read somewhere on here (Apparantly incorrectly) that runoff rate mattered.

I've read that, too, and I"ve also read to let the sparge water "sit" for 10 minutes after adding.

But the fact is, neither draining speed nor letting it sit are factors in the efficiency when batch sparging.
 
My two cents: when you get everything else the way you want it (and good luck), try mash stabilizer 5.2. I have found this stuff no good at controlling mash ph, but it'll give you another 5-10% efficiency almost every time. Also, i was too timid with my mill fearing a stuck sparge. I'm milling at .040 and still never had a problem. Next stop: .035!

I would suggest the exact opposite- to never use that mash stabilizer especially if you don't know your water chemistry. It doesn't work to stabilize mash pH (except maybe in a handful of scenerios) and it can cause an off flavor in the beer (from my own experience).

I mill at 0.032". The old saying is "Crush 'til you're scared"! :D
 
I had problems with inefficiency when batch sparging which is why I switched to fly sparge. Granted... they were my first all grain beers... and I was probably doing it wrong. I actually think it was my equipment not my technique.
Which gave me a reason to convert a keg into a MLT. I switched to fly sparging at the same time, and my efficiency went from 45-50% to 80-85%.

Maybe I will try a batch sparge my next go around, I am sure it would be faster than fly sparging for an hour :D s
 
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