Distilled with minerals same as Tap Water?

Hey guys,
I've been brewing with distilled water lately mostly because I like to control the minerals in the beer but I have recently been reading that distilled is not the way to go when brewing all grain. I use EZ water calculator to get my minerals to the appropriate levels and add gypsum, calcium chloride, and epsom salt to my mash to help with pH and flavor. I batch sparge with untreated distilled because I put all of the salts in the mash. I seem to not have a problem and have made great beers using this technique, but am now confused on the many posts I have read to not use distilled water, which leads me to my question:

Is distilled water with salts added to the mash the same as tap with with the same amount of minerals in it. For example, is tap water with ca 50, mg 5, Na 0, Cl 70, so4 40, hco3 97.....the same as distilled water with minerals added to produce those exact same numbers? Is the Alkalinity or RA different in the tap water? And why?

I did have my tap water tested by ward labs about a year ago and am guessing the mineral content has changed, which is another reason why I like using distilled because I know exactly what the water profile is.

Thanks guys!

Johnnyboy1012 said:

...the many posts I have read to not use distilled water, which leads me to my question:

Click to expand...

I haven't seen any of those or if I have I haven't paid any attention to them because they are not worth bothering about.

Johnnyboy1012 said:

Is distilled water with salts added to the mash the same as tap with with the same amount of minerals in it.

Click to expand...

Of course it is.

We might temper this absolute stance with a couple of remarks.

1) You would never make up a water from DI or RO which is identical in ion content to your tap water. Your tap water will contain bicarbonate and calcium ions. It is possible for you to emulate that water very closely but it would require you to add salts and then bubble CO2 through the water to dissolve the calcium carbonate and then continue the CO2 while monitoring pH until the pH of the tap water is reached. This is much more trouble than most are willing to undertake and not worth it in terms of the beer that would result. Rather than go this elaborate process most will ignore the Ca++/HCO3- question entirely and adjust mash pH with more or less alkali/acid as is necessary to get correct mash pH.

2) You wouldn't add copper sulfate or zinc choride or strontium nitrate to your water in order to match you tap water's nitrate, copper, zinc and strontium content. There would be no point in this. Nor, obviously would you introduce lead or arsenic traces in order to match the tap.

Johnnyboy1012 said:

For example, is tap water with ca 50, mg 5, Na 0, Cl 70, so4 40, hco3 97.....the same as distilled water with minerals added to produce those exact same numbers? Is the Alkalinity or RA different in the tap water? And why?

Click to expand...

If you could make water with those specs then, yes, distilled water with those specs would be the same but you can't, practically speaking. Theoretically you could but the pH would be under 3 and as a consequence you would have to be under CO2 pressure of 135 atmospheres.

Johnnyboy1012 said:

I did have my tap water tested by ward labs about a year ago and am guessing the mineral content has changed, which is another reason why I like using distilled because I know exactly what the water profile is.

Click to expand...

This is probably the best reason to use DI or RO water. Don't listen to the naysayers. I'm guessing that about half of homebrewers (or the ones that read this topic anyway) and an equal proportion of craft brewers are using RO.

Johnnyboy1012 said:

I have recently been reading that distilled is not the way to go when brewing all grain.

Click to expand...

Without knowing exactly what you're reading, it's hard to say why you might be hearing that. If I had to guess, though, I'd say that you're hearing that straight distilled water is not what you want to use - which is absolutely true! Modified distilled water is fine, though. You're adding all the important trace minerals to the water and making it suitable for brewing.

Excellent! This is exactly what i needed to hear because, like I said, I've been brewing with distilled and adding all my mineral additions to the mash to adjust pH and for flavor reasons. I am brewing a smoked baltic porter tomorrow with 100% distilled water and adding the necessary amounts of minerals to get to this water profile:

How do you think this looks for a baltic porter?

Mash Water / Total water (ppm):
Ca: 83 / 50
Mg: 4 / 3
Na: 0 / 0
Cl: 110 / 66
SO4: 69 / 41
Cl to SO4 Ratio: 1.60 / 1.60

Alkalinity (CaCO3): -107
RA: -169
Estimated pH: 5.45
(room temp)

I'm not sure if the yeast makes a difference in this sense but I will be using WLP 830 German Lager Yeast.

Thanks for the help AJ and I look forward to the water book you are helping Palmer with!

jhall4 said:

Without knowing exactly what you're reading, it's hard to say why you might be hearing that. If I had to guess, though, I'd say that you're hearing that straight distilled water is not what you want to use - which is absolutely true! Modified distilled water is fine, though. You're adding all the important trace minerals to the water and making it suitable for brewing.

Click to expand...

I figured that is what people meant by saying not to use distilled but I just wanted to be sure. As long as I am adding the proper amount of gypsum, calcium chloride, and epsom salt I should be alright correct?

I recently brewed a Pliny the Elder clone that is still in my fermentation fridge dry hopping, but I did sample it and it tasted excellent. I used Mosher's pale ale water profile for that and since that was an expensive beer to brew, I wanted to be sure I didn't mess it up. Thanks for the help

Also, how do you guys feel about adding salt to the boil? London water profile has sodium at 100ppm via Ray Daniels book Designing Great Beers and he recommends adding some salt to the boil. Suggestions?

Johnnyboy1012 said:

Also, how do you guys feel about adding salt to the boil? London water profile has sodium at 100ppm via Ray Daniels book Designing Great Beers and he recommends adding some salt to the boil. Suggestions?

Click to expand...

I'm not a fan of a lot of sodium in my beers. In small amounts it's ok, but a lot makes the beer taste funny.

thanks Yooper for the heads up. I am trying to add a small amount but the EZ water calculator doesn't have a place to add table salt, so I am searching Designing Great Beers to crunch some numbers. What is the max Sodium ppm you added to a beer? And what would you suggest the max be?

Johnnyboy1012 said:

thanks Yooper for the heads up. I am trying to add a small amount but the EZ water calculator doesn't have a place to add table salt, so I am searching Designing Great Beers to crunch some numbers. What is the max Sodium ppm you added to a beer? And what would you suggest the max be?

Click to expand...

I don't know that I ever thought about a "max", so I'm no help at all there.

I don't use EZ water (it's not been accurate for me) but I use bru'n water and I know it has a table salt (sodium chloride) addition. It also has a lot of helpful info on water and those additions like magnesium and sodium that you may find helpful.

Awesome, I will look into that table and see what I come up. Thanks

Johnnyboy1012 said:

Also, how do you guys feel about adding salt to the boil? London water profile has sodium at 100ppm via Ray Daniels book Designing Great Beers and he recommends adding some salt to the boil. Suggestions?

Click to expand...

I'm very much for it if it improves the beer and very much against it if it doesn't. The difficulty in answering here is that 'improves' is a subjective impression of the drinker. Soup is improved, in most peoples opinions, by the addition of salt but the amount they think should be added differs. That's why the shaker is on the table. Now there are those who will tell you that adding salt is an insult to the chef - that he knows better than you how much salt you like. That's one viewpoint. Another is that it is a matter of personal taste. Here we are talking about salt salt i.e. sodium chloride but similar comments apply to the other salts as well.

Clearly you can add salt to finished beer and when I was younger there were salt shakers on all bars for exactly this purpose. But it's not so usual to see people salting their beer these days and you are taking upon yourself the role of the chef in the fancy restaurants where they do not put salt on the table under the assumption that setting its level is the chef's job (as the proprietor of one establishment I used to patronize frequently would remind me if he ever saw me reach for the salt). I think the answer must be determined by experiment. You need to brew the beer with different levels as decide what level gives you the best beer. As with the other salts you can experiment in the glass and then apply the results when brewing.

Another aspect relates to the definition of 'improves' which can mean several things. There is only one thing it means in the opinion of a commercial operator and that is that the beer sells better and as a home brewer it sort of means the same thing which is, effectively, that it pleases your 'customers' more. Your main customer may be you in which case all you have to do is adjust until it tastes best to you. But your customers may be your spouse, her mother or a panel of unknown beer judges in which sense 'improves' means 'wins more competitions'.

So I've turned a relatively simple question into a rather complicated one. Such is the nature of brewing (and, of course, many other things).

While AJ and I were assisting John Palmer with the water book, John conducted a rudimentary assessment of sodium in beer by dosing a commercial beer with salt. His conclusion was that it can be beneficial to flavor even at a dose that I consider excessive (150 ppm). Daniel's recommendation of 100 ppm is much more tolerable in my opinion.

My feeling is that the sodium concentration is best limited to a more moderate level than 100 ppm due to the potential for antagonistic flavor interaction from other ions. You can get away with higher sodium, but just be careful.

Looking at the data from historic brewing cities, most have very modest sodium levels that are typically less than 50 ppm. In the case of London, it is a large city that draws water from a number of sources. The city is in the tidal plain and it is possible to get salt-water intrusion in wells in those lowlands if you pump them hard enough. So 100 ppm or more could be seen in some areas. So it's not unreasonable to assume that a London profile might contain high sodium.

As AJ points out above, if the sodium improves the beer flavor, then do it. I do recommend modest sodium levels in the Bru'n Water profiles. I think it does add a sweetness and roundness when dosed at modest levels. Don't be afraid to try higher levels, but be aware of that potential for interaction at high sodium level.

mabrungard said:

.... John Palmer ... water book...conclusion was that it can be beneficial to flavor even at a dose that I consider excessive (150 ppm). Daniel's recommendation of 100 ppm is much more tolerable in my opinion.

Click to expand...

This speaks volumes. Three workers/authors; 3 opinions. This only reinforces my assertion that it is a matter of personal preference which was the theme of my last post.

mabrungard said:

As AJ points out above, if the sodium improves the beer flavor, then do it. I do recommend modest sodium levels in the Bru'n Water profiles. I think it does add a sweetness and roundness when dosed at modest levels.

Click to expand...

I'm pretty sure, but of course cannot prove, that it is the chloride ion that provides the roundness, sweetness and body. A pretty convincing argument for this is that adding calcium chloride gives these effects as does adding sodium chloride. For example, I don't have any sodium (other than whatever sneaks through the RO membrane) in my brewing liquor but I do use calcium chloride and get more or less of those effects depending on how much I use.

mabrungard said:

Don't be afraid to try higher levels, but be aware of that potential for interaction at high sodium level.

Click to expand...

The obvious problem with excess NaCl is that the beer will begin to taste salty in the sense one usually thinks of as salty. If one uses high levels of calcium chloride then the beer gets salty too but it is a different kind of salty. More minerally than sharp/sour. Of course anyone who wants to explore this can easily do so by taking a neutral beer and adding varying amounts of calcium chloride and sodium chloride during tasting.

Excellent info guys! Thank you for your help on this matter. I will have to experiment and find out what I like best. What do you think about adding baking soda to increase sodium levels? That way you can keep chloride under 100ppm, sulfates low so they do not create a harsh bitterness, and calcium at about 50ppm. All of this of course if the recipe and mash pH dictates the need for it. Would adding two minerals that raise mash pH and one that lowers mash pH be harmful? For example, adding gypsum, calcium chloride, and baking soda to the mash. Just thinking out loud here about how to hit the proper mash pH and get all the flavor minerals in the mash.

I can't wait for the water book. You guys are the rock stars of the brewing water world.

Don't add baking soda unless your mash pH is too low. Its a poor way to add sodium unless you also need that bicarbonate to raise mash pH.