The Extract "twang" - what is it?

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DuPuma

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In as best as can be described, what exactly do people mean by this? I've read a lot about people tasting a typical extract "twang" or "skunk" flavor, but I don't know if I understand what people mean.

I don't have the space/time to do AG, but i've had many AG homebrews, and have made many good extract beers. All things being equal, I think the AG beers are "cleaner", and the LME beers I've made have bit of a "syrupy/sweet" flavor. But since I've used a full-boil, late addition DME method, my extract beers have been pretty "clean".
 
Extract twang is hard to describe. It is only an issue with beers made with LME, and most people say that in darker, heavier beers it's not noticeable. The best way I can describe it, is that it is a flavor that is consistent in all LME beers.

I've never experienced the twang in any beer I've made with DME, but it's pretty much always been a problem for me in all of my LME beers.
 
Interesting. Thanks for the link. Incidentally, I've had bad experiences with Munton's LME as well. I use Breiss DME almost exclusively (it's what LHBS carries) and have had very good results.

OFF TOPIC question: Does the phrase "Partial Mash" = Steeping grains in the muslin bags OR does it mean adjusting the recipe a bit to account for an actual mash of grains (in a small cooler, for instance), and making up the difference with extract? I think the phrase is often used to mean steeping grains, but I don't consider that "mashing" (although it is a close analog). When I see it, I think of a brewer mashing and sparging grains for about 1/2 the recipe, and using ME to make up the difference.
 
You are correct Puma, Partial mashing is not the same as steeping specialty grains. Basically, you use two pots to sort of sparge the grains in a collander after mashing at 153F or so.
 
These days I'm soaking the steeping grains with some 2 or 6 row grain and then I'll sparge them in a funnel until I have my desired boil volume.
 
I have experieced the same tangy taste in both AG and Extract ales. It may just be a character of the beer.
I think the whole thing about extract twang is an internet myth. Do a search on Snopes. Nothing there.
AP
 
APendejo said:
I have experienced the same tangy taste in both AG and Extract ales. It may just be a character of the beer.
I think the whole thing about extract twang is an internet myth. Do a search on Snopes. Nothing there.
AP
Click to expand...
I'm not so sure this one's a myth. Plenty of experienced brewers claim the same thing regarding an improvement in their beer when moving from LME to DME or AG. I only brewed one batch with LME, so I'm not much of an authority, but that batch was one of the worst I've made (kit+kilo brew).

Just because it's not on Snopes doesn't mean it's an invalid discussion...
 
DuPuma said:
I don't have the space/time to do AG, but i've had many AG homebrews, and have made many good extract beers. All things being equal, I think the AG beers are "cleaner", and the LME beers I've made have bit of a "syrupy/sweet" flavor. But since I've used a full-boil, late addition DME method, my extract beers have been pretty "clean".
Click to expand...

That "syrupy" quality is the exact problem with all my previous brews. I just switched to DME yesterday, per Yooper's advice. What is the "late addition" method? I don't know much of anything about AG, but that's the direction I'm going to be headed if I can't get rid of that flavor. I have an extremely sensitive palate and that taste really bugs me.
 
Every beer that I've ever tasted with a "twang" was a partial boil. I think that adding water is more of a problem than DME v. LME. Personally, I like DME much better, but I've brewed LME kits that had no twang at all.
 
I'm thankful for the responses. I opened a (very old) bottle of bitter that I made with Munton's LME, partial boil. I tasted the twang. It was syrupy, and kind of sweet. I'm sure that there were a lot of other problems with that beer other than the twang/extract (age of the beer, inexperience of the brewer, partial boil), but I sure am glad I use DME, and can do full boils.


I really wish I could go all grain, but I simply don't have the room now, and we'll be moving to a condo in Chicago before too long, with probably even less room. I guess it will be some time before I can make that step.
 
Junebug said:
That "syrupy" quality is the exact problem with all my previous brews. I just switched to DME yesterday, per Yooper's advice. What is the "late addition" method? I don't know much of anything about AG, but that's the direction I'm going to be headed if I can't get rid of that flavor. I have an extremely sensitive palate and that taste really bugs me.
Click to expand...

Late-addition is a different way of doing the boil. Basically, you boil 25-50% of your total DME for the full 60-75 minutes. With 30-15 minutes left, you add the rest of the DME. In theory, it produces a lighter colored, less "syrupy" beer because the extract isn't allowed to boil and caramelize. In practice, some people find that DME doesn't caramelize at all when boiling the full amount. Additionally, you get better hop utilization with a lighter boil, so your bittering hops will be better utilized for the first 30-45 minutes.

You can search for more information on this. I often do it, because although the benefits are up for debate, I don't think there is any detrimental effect to late adding your DME.
 
I noted a definite lessening of the twang when moving from LME to DME to Extract+Steeping Grains to Extract+PM to AG brewing.

Every lighter beer I made with a method other than AG had the twang. My unprofessional opinion is that it has to be something in the extract(liquid or dry) that is not fully fermented. Some sugary by product of the extraction process that does not properly ferment. My .02...
 
I also think a lot of it has to do with the quality of the extract. I did 95% of my extract brewing with extract from morebeer.com. When I went to my “local” supply store (an hour drive in each direction); I used the standard “can” LME – and was astounded by the results. For the first time ever; I actually tasted the “twang”. Note the twang beer was also a partial all grain …. Which I believe supports my thesis even better.

Essentially; fresh extract = great. Old / canned extract = I will never touch again. Obviously, I didn’t run any numbers and my sample size (n=1) is very small. But its enough to changer my habits …. And now I am an AG brewer.
 
Air Pirate said:
What exactly does the "twang" taste like?

reason i ask is that ive got a batch of bitter (my first batch) comming up and that used LME and DME. I should like to know what im tasteing for though.
Click to expand...

I think it is an overwhelming malty, syrupy flavor. It is just "there". It detracts from it being a clean flavor. That is the best I can describe. Syrupy.
 
I've referred people to the byo article too...Basicbrewing had a couple podcasts about it with the author as well, updating his refinements in using it since the article came out...

Also somehwere (I think on another homebrewing forum) someone suggested adding one of these folding steamers in the bottom of the cooler.

4050Lthumb.jpg


It lifts the grainbag above the level of the spigot which results in less stuck sparges...

I wish I could find the site I read about using the steamer...there were some other good tips in it as well....
 
I racked my Irish Ale to secondary yesterday. This was my first effort using DME rather than LME. I am pleased to report that during a sample of this ale yesterday, there was not the slightest hint of "twang". I'm hoping this is my solution!
 
Some sugary by product of the extraction process that does not properly ferment.
Click to expand...

The only brew with twang for me was one where I added to much maple syrup and I have been thinking it was some sugary by product.
 
Using DME helps a lot, so does doing the biggest boil you can. I think that DME helps guarantee fresh extract, and I think big boils help avoid wortcaramelization in the kettle. Some claim success with using late extract additions and LME. This might be true and I have not tried it but personally, almost every partial boil LME beer I ever made came out way sweeter than I wanted and lots have the twang.

If I'm going to spend the money and time to brew, I am okay plunking down the extra couple bucks to go with DME.
 
Erythro73 said:
The link is now broken... And I was curious to know what was it saying? Anyone can give me a new link (BYO has since change)/ tell me the method?

Thanks!
Click to expand...

I wouldn't worry about it. Imo, there is no such thing as extract
"twang". There is certainly such a thing as "noobie twang" though.

Ray
 
I especially liked the comments in this article:
http://byo.com/stories/article/indi...21-extract-vs-all-grain-wild-yeasts-mr-wizard

"A friend once related an encounter with a beer snob that I have never
forgotten. One day while working in a brewpub in the San Francisco Bay,
a German brewer came in. They had a bock beer on tap and the German
brewer was very complimentary of the beer. However, once they began
discussing the details of the brewery the German realized that the
brewhouse was an infusion set up. His opinion of the bock was instantly
changed because he declared that bock beers could not be made with
infusion mashing. In his opinion, a bock beer had to be brewed using
decoction or step mashing, and of course his preference was for the
decoction method. My friend attempted to argue with this guy and used
the German brewer’s compliments of his beer as fuel for the argument,
but as you can guess the debate ended with no meeting of the minds.

Snobs hang their hats on methods and tradition and cannot accept that
there is often more than one solution to a problem. I personally do not
waste my time arguing with people like that. The most important part of
brewing is the finished product — not how you got there. Some beer styles
are difficult to replicate using malt extract, while many others — most
English ales, for example — can be brewed successfully using either method.
If you focus on the merits of the beer in the glass, choose the most
appropriate methods to meet your objective and fine tune your own brewing
method, I believe you will be happy with your decision, whether all-grain or
extract!"

Ray
 
I posted about it in another forum so I might as well say it here too. The most important thing about using extract, especially LME, is to make sure you get good fresh extract. I get mine in bulk from my LHBS and they get it straight from the manufacturer and go through a barrel every few days so it's always fresh. You never know how long that dusty can has been sitting up on the shelf of your shop.
 
Obviously replying to a resurrected old thread.

The thing I notice now with extract beers is not what I would describe as a twang. Twang reminds me of something sharp like vinegar. What I notice is a lack of complexity (specifically grain complexity). It's less obvious in darker beers. Sometimes there is a sweetness and cloying characteristic. When I made extracts they struggled to finish below 1020 which I put down (going purely on what I've been told rather than being expert) to differing Free Amino Nitrogen levels between grain and extract. That would explain the sweetness. Contrary to malt purists' dogma, adding a touch of dextrose judiciously to your brew can make a difference here.
 
I agree that "syrupy" and "twang" are distinctly different adjectives. I have described a "twang" in my beers (all are extract) which I can most closely guess is from yeast and the unfiltered nature of home brew. It is more that bite on your tongue (i.e. vinegar) type flavor. I think the internet myth part is true in that people are using the adjective to describe different flavors.
 
I have feeling it's relating to using poor quality or "stale" extract.
I've made some very good extract brews from quality kits.

It'd be interesting to take AG wort. Brew 50% as normal and boil the remaining 50% down to a syrup then treat as LME and compare the resulting beers.
 
I caramelise (to a thick syrup) some of my wort for some beers (mainly a robust porter recipe of mine). It's nowhere near 50% (around 3 litres in a 22 litre batch) but I'd describe it as delicious rather than twangy.

I think the stale extract explanation is probably the best, followed by yeast health. Most of the kits we get here have 7g of yeast which is stored under the lid of the kit. I'm not sure though - while I've tasted (and made) some less than ordinary kit and extract beers I'm not familiar with the twang.
 
I too only taste the "twang" when using LME. The odd thing is that my LHBS is extremely busy and moves a lot of product, but they do not sell fresh LME... I think they simply do not have enough space in thier building. The only LME they sell is the canned crap (both the plastic Breiss and the metal Coopers or Muntons, or whatever). At any rate, I digress... I switched to using exclusively DME and the twang was gone.
 
This is an absolute myth. I've been brewing some time and have no idea what this twangy taste is....The only weird tastes I've ever gotten are from poor hop balance, weird spice ingredients I was playing around with, or the infected batch I got from using Wild Berries...that even though I pasteurized still managed to get infected (Probably some damn stem leftover or something.

I could see getting an off taste from using a pre-hopped LME and boiling it for an hour though possibly. Maybe that is what is happening to people...

If your gunna add a LME thats pre-hopped you should probably add it 5 minutes before the boil is over...I hate pre-hopped LME. that crap is the devil.
 
Extract twang does exist. However, most of the time (IME) it is not twang but poor process. Often extract brewers do not have quality equipment and do not follow the best brewing practices. Poor aeration, partial boils, under-pitching yeast, suspect sanitation, combined with a slew of other potential problems, then fermenting without temp control.

These things often contribute to problems with extract brews.

Beyond all that, I have experienced extract twang using kits I have brewed with friends. I never buy kits and only brew extract with fresh, high turn over, extra light DME and using steeped grains for my malt profile.

Case in point, I have a keg of Orfy's mild on tap right now that was brewed with DME and it is awesome. No twang at all.
 
BK - I think the majority of this post was about the twang associated with LME, not DME.

While I agree that alot of the off flavors can be associated to poor brewing practices, I know I have had several LME batches have a similar flavor no matter what the style is, and after doing the same batches all grain or with DME that flavor is gone. All things being equal I have not had the pleasure of a real fresh batch of LME, but I would guess this is something that is acquired during the process of making LME.

I dont think I will ever go back to LME given the option.
 

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