Wyeast 3711 French Saison

Jboggeye said:

I like to mix Belgian and French saison.

Start with 3724 (belgian saison) at 65, let it go for a couple days, then pitch active 3711.

But, 3711 alone can make the smoothest saison- if you are going for that.

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I really hadn't thougt about mixing this with another strain. I like the idea though. For what it worth this last summer saison fermented all the way to 1.000. I would to try this in a Belgian strong. I've also wondered what it would be like in a ipa.

this 3724 yeast WILL usually ferment out real well. I've found that with the same grist, however, 3711 will go lower. (that's why I like the mix)


I don't think I would want it in an IPA though. Competing flavors, excessive dryness.... then again, I'm not a huge fan of Belgian IPAs.

Try it though, I would be curious.

Jboggeye said:

this 3724 yeast WILL usually ferment out real well. I've found that with the same grist, however, 3711 will go lower. (that's why I like the mix)

I don't think I would want it in an IPA though. Competing flavors, excessive dryness.... then again, I'm not a huge fan of Belgian IPAs.

Try it though, I would be curious.

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Hmmm. Belgian IPA. That gives me an idea. To the Recipe Formulation Lab!

I used 3711 for a Saison and I must say, it is pretty smooth and tastey.

Cheers,

Sheldon

I've got the itch to brew with this yeast again...maybe stan hieronymus' patersbier?

Anyone try this or something like a belgian trip with the 3711?

philrose said:

Anyone try this or something like a belgian trip with the 3711?

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Going to split 10gal of Tripel wort in 3 batches to try different yeasts: 3711, wlp500, and an Abbey yeast.

But after reading this thread - guess I gott go search one out. I've seen them / know they are available. Anybody suggest some commercial brews that would give me an idea what a homebrew Saison would be like? i guess I'm looking for a good all around representative?

Piratwolf said:

Going to split 10gal of Tripel wort in 3 batches to try different yeasts: 3711, wlp500, and an Abbey yeast.

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thats what i was hoping to hear...plan on posting results?

LOVE THIS YEAST! Just racked my 1.068 OG saison from the 3711 cake onto 6 lbs. fresh pasteurized apricots 7 days ago. I have made this recipe 6 times now. This yeast has produced beer for me that exhibits a ridiculously high degree of consistency. Since I dialed in the recipe, I have detected almost no variation between the 6 batches I have made, keeping the fermentation temperature +/- 2 F for all the batches

I mashed at 153 for 75 minutes, and think I'll keep it cool to start off. I just pitched at 76 and put it in a cool water bath in the basement. I'll monitor the fermometer this evening and stick some ice bottles in the bath if need be. I think I'll target mid to upper 60s to start. How many days before I should let it hit low 70s, mid, upper, etc? I've never done a temp ramp or any sort of belgian before, though I have a belgian IPA schedule with this yeast (I'm a cheapskate, so it's my house belgian yeast--I'll wash and make starters as needed).

tennesseean_87 said:

I mashed at 153 for 75 minutes, and think I'll keep it cool to start off. I just pitched at 76 and put it in a cool water bath in the basement. I'll monitor the fermometer this evening and stick some ice bottles in the bath if need be. I think I'll target mid to upper 60s to start. How many days before I should let it hit low 70s, mid, upper, etc? I've never done a temp ramp or any sort of belgian before, though I have a belgian IPA schedule with this yeast (I'm a cheapskate, so it's my house belgian yeast--I'll wash and make starters as needed).

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I think you could let it go cool for a day or two then start raising by a couple degrees a day until you hit target temp. Depending on how high you may need to go up to 5 a day. To get to target for a long enough fermentation.

Thanks!

+1 on 3711 being consistent. It is super predictable. Fast and dry!

I was thinking about the mix. Use an abbey yeast then 3711 the thing at 1.015ish. You'll get a NEAT beer. Especially if you ferment the abbey at one temp then raise it when the 3711 takes off.

Ooo... gears are turning

Hops will be an interesting one. I'm thinking Sorachi Ace, some of those New Zealand guys, Saaz, Styrian Celeia is a GREAT hop with 3711. Kinda funky, grassy with a hit a citrus in it... hmmm...

Chub said:

I just brewed up 11 gallons of a Saison using the 3711. Overshot my gravity a bit. Estimated at 1.065, Measured OG at 1.075. Used oxygenator for a couple minutes and pitched 2 smack packs. I am a little worried that this is not enough yeast. I usually use a starter, but should I be worried with using only 2 smackpacks? My real question is: I am thinking about throwing another yeast pack in a couple of days, is this necessary?

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According to YEAST CALC (http://yeastcalc.com/), you will need 568 billion cells for 11 gallons of 1.075 wort. Assuming you used the activators, you will have about 200 billion cells (maybe less if they are older). Theoretically, you would need 4 more to get up to the 568 billion cell range.

FYI, one Activator is "designed to deliver professional pitch rates (6 million cells/ ml.) when directly added to 5 gallons of wort. ( <1.060 at 70 degrees)." Pitching 2 activators into 11 gallons of 1.075 wort is well shy of that. Who knows though, you might get some interesting saison flavors with a little yeast stress...

Stressing out saison yeasts is fun too. You get some funky qualities and, at least from a 3764/3711 (DuPont/Thierriez) combo, pitched at a high krausen 1.080 starter of DuPont and a just smacked pack of 3711 really plays out well.

philrose said:

thats what i was hoping to hear...plan on posting results?

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Absolutely! I was thinking to brew them on the 18th, but I may work it in on this Monday or Tuesday.

Piratwolf said:

Absolutely! I was thinking to brew them on the 18th, but I may work it in on this Monday or Tuesday.

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right on!

Also, I just finished up about 6 mo. in the VA beach area... Ever hit up the public house in Norfolk? The veg. quinoa and a pint was my monday ritual.

I'm sure I'll do a triple, Golden strong or dark strong/quad after the patersbier... interested in an exchange?

philrose said:

right on!

Also, I just finished up about 6 mo. in the VA beach area... Ever hit up the public house in Norfolk? The veg. quinoa and a pint was my monday ritual.

I'm sure I'll do a triple, Golden strong or dark strong/quad after the patersbier... interested in an exchange?

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How cool is that?! We hit the Publick House it's first week & were so disappointed we haven't been back. I'll try it again this summer.

Exchange would be awesome. PM me when you're ready!

This past winter, I experimented with 3711 in a saison, wit, and tripel in successive weeks; all were established recipes (the first I simply wanted both as a control and because it was delicious) that I'd brewed several times before and felt comfortable enough that I knew what to expect.

The saison funkiness came through strongly in all of them (I fermented at ambient temp for the most part, starting ~65f and rising maybe to 72f), but without overwhelming the natural flavors. I've already blown through the wit after putting it on tap after about 3 months of room temperature conditioning; the citrus flavors from 1oz each of sweet and bitter orange peel had been mellowed, but so had the saisonyness. It had the surprisingly medium body I've come to associate with this yeast and while it didn't taste like a traditional wit, it was good enough that I'll probably do it for this recipe again in the future.

The tripel is still in the keg and is scheduled to go on tap next month (giving it about 7 months of lead time); I'd gone with 3711 for this one in particular because I'd been having trouble mellowing the banana bread flavors from the original yeast strain (wlp530, as I recall) and wanted to see how the saison strain did with it. So far, it's tasted largely like a saison, not a tripel (not surprisingly), but I haven't tried it in a couple months now. When I toss it on tap, I'll try to post more specific tasting notes. I'm hoping the extended time gives some of the spiciness a chance to emerge from behind the overall funk.

Wow, thanks Smagee, that's pretty fun info.

I can see this yeast being good in a wit, as it is a very citrus-y flavor- which is why I don't like to age this yeast. (more on this in a little)

As for the tripel, it's not surprising- the fruit/banana flavors that one needs in a tripel is not available in 3711. The only difference between my tripels and my High Gravity saisons are the yeasts. I should do a split batch between wlp530 and 3711.
I like to ferment 530 real low temp- a tripel doesn't need much esters to be fantastic.

Now, about the 3711 citrus flavor- it doesn't hold up in aging- or more specifically, an aged 3711 gets kinda bland and one-dimensional. the citrus flavor needs to be more funky to be good, and is better young.

Also, I've found that a high percentage of wheat malt helps soften the beer in a nice way, which is why is use 3711 in low ABV table saisons with alot of wheat.

For "regular" saisons, I'll pitch 3724 for a few days then 3711.

I tried 3711 on a low gravity Farm House recipe from NB.

It turned out a little too lemony for me.

Lemony...

haha, you might have ruined 3711 for me. I never thought of it as lemony until now...

oops!

Jboggeye said:

Lemony...

haha, you might have ruined 3711 for me. I never thought of it as lemony until now...

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I love the citrus, but get more orange than lemon... and I use all cascade in my Saison specifically to enhance the citrus. I may soak some orange peel in cointreau and add it as well... does anyone have input on the difference in usage and/or outcome with bitter vs. sweet orange peel?

I think it was too lemony because the gravity was low (session).

I dunno?

Every time I think I have a handle on this yeast, something new comes up.

Jboggeye said:

Lemony...

haha, you might have ruined 3711 for me. I never thought of it as lemony until now...

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Me neither. But I suck at tasting notes. My friends like what thy call the citrusy notes with pepperness.

Piratwolf said:

I love the citrus, but get more orange than lemon... and I use all cascade in my Saison specifically to enhance the citrus. I may soak some orange peel in cointreau and add it as well... does anyone have input on the difference in usage and/or outcome with bitter vs. sweet orange peel?

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I've done a couple experiments with the aforementioned with recipe that calls for equal parts and in all honesty, I simply can't tell the difference. I did one batch with 2oz sweet and no bitter, one with 2oz bitter and no sweet, and it comes out mostly the same (although what variations there were could be attributed to other variables, such as storing time, ambient temp, primary duration, etc--it certainly wasn't a scientific experiment ). Increasing the amounts might make the difference less subtle, but I prefer complementing the citrus with hop selections rather than just going straight fruit.

For a cointreau-specific application, I'd probably think bitter would help balance out the natural sweetness of the liqueur, but it'd depend on if you plan on dumping the cointreau in as well.

smagee said:

I've done a couple experiments with the aforementioned with recipe that calls for equal parts and in all honesty, I simply can't tell the difference. I did one batch with 2oz sweet and no bitter, one with 2oz bitter and no sweet, and it comes out mostly the same (although what variations there were could be attributed to other variables, such as storing time, ambient temp, primary duration, etc--it certainly wasn't a scientific experiment ). Increasing the amounts might make the difference less subtle, but I prefer complementing the citrus with hop selections rather than just going straight fruit.

For a cointreau-specific application, I'd probably think bitter would help balance out the natural sweetness of the liqueur, but it'd depend on if you plan on dumping the cointreau in as well.

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Awesome info, smagee! Thank you! I'd probably decant the Cointreau, but I hadn't taken the sweetness into account--good call. Did you soak your peels at all or just toss 'em in?

Jboggeye said:

Wow, thanks Smagee, that's pretty fun info.

I can see this yeast being good in a wit, as it is a very citrus-y flavor- which is why I don't like to age this yeast. (more on this in a little)

...

Now, about the 3711 citrus flavor- it doesn't hold up in aging- or more specifically, an aged 3711 gets kinda bland and one-dimensional. the citrus flavor needs to be more funky to be good, and is better young.

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JLW said:

I have made three saisons with this yeast. The first I brewed in the summer and let the temp run wild. I would say it fermented between 85 and 90 degrees...By far the first saison was the best. The funk and pepperiness that I expected came out.

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Jboggeye said:

wow, and I find this yeast tastes better at lower temps- around 70-75. It tends to get phenolic and fusely at 80+, in my experience.

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ghack said:

I agree. Used it in a Bier Du Guarde with a cool fermentation temp and it was just perfect. That wonderful earthy-slightly-funky flavor with a bit of spice, but not at the saison level.

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I wonder if the aging out of the funkiness has to do with preferred ferm temps. Would higher temps giving more funk last longer? Would fermenting cooler be better to enjoy fresh? Maybe some of the above posters can comment on how long they aged at the preferred temps stated above. I also remember a post claiming that funkiness increased with aging, and I'm curious to know which is right.

tennesseean_87 said:

I wonder if the aging out of the funkiness has to do with preferred ferm temps. Would higher temps giving more funk last longer? Would fermenting cooler be better to enjoy fresh? Maybe some of the above posters can comment on how long they aged at the preferred temps stated above. I also remember a post claiming that funkiness increased with aging, and I'm curious to know which is right.

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I fermented mine on the cool side (68F) and kept it there for maybe 7-8 days before putting it in a room around 70F for a week longer, then primed & bottled and started drinking 7 days later. So that was 21 days Grain-to-Glass. The competition where I won 1st out of 41 entries was about a month later, and now, 3 months after brewing, there are only 5 bottles left (competition entries).

The funk was low from the beginning and remained low throughout. It had that great 3711 silky medium body, an intense citrus-orange start, and a hint of peppery phenol on the finish. The phenols faded first, but everything else has remained pretty much as it started.

Piratwolf said:

Awesome info, smagee! Thank you! I'd probably decant the Cointreau, but I hadn't taken the sweetness into account--good call. Did you soak your peels at all or just toss 'em in?

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Unless I have some special reason to do otherwise, I just toss 'em. This particular recipe has them added with 5 min left in the boil with the intent of removing them prior to primary, but I typically just leave them in for the entire fermentation.

tennesseean_87 said:

I wonder if the aging out of the funkiness has to do with preferred ferm temps. Would higher temps giving more funk last longer? Would fermenting cooler be better to enjoy fresh? Maybe some of the above posters can comment on how long they aged at the preferred temps stated above. I also remember a post claiming that funkiness increased with aging, and I'm curious to know which is right.

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The idea that the fermentation temp might impact the funk retention (heh) hadn't occurred to me; my last actual saison with this, I actually kept the temp somewhat tightly controlled as best my limited means allowed--I recall it hovering in the 70F range according to the external bucket thermometer, so it was probably around 75F fairly consistently. For a saison, that's pretty low, and that batch is pretty mellow now (~1.5 years, I think), albeit still delicious. I just brought it to a HB share recently where it was lauded both for complexity (by saison fans) and its mild funk (for those that prefer mellower beer). The funkiness in this case definitely mellowed with time, and it faded into almost a tartness that I'd have associated with a sour instead. This was a rye saison, so the rye character may be coming out a bit stronger as the funk fades away, but it's been interesting to see the progression. I'm planning to re-brew this sometime this month, time permitting; maybe I'll let 3711 take the temp where it wishes and see how it differs from my memory of the original.

The wit and tripel I did with it were less tightly controlled, but they were also done in winter, so I can't really speak to how hot they got. I *think* the wit fermented warmer, probably closer to 80F at its peak, but my memory may be messing with me. The wit specifically mellowed in funkiness with a couple months at ambient conditioning, but it was still very obvious that a saison yeast was used; I'm *hoping* the tripel does the same thing once I throw it in the kegerator towards the end of the month.

Piratwolf said:

I fermented mine on the cool side (68F) and kept it there for maybe 7-8 days before putting it in a room around 70F for a week longer, then primed & bottled and started drinking 7 days later. So that was 21 days Grain-to-Glass. The competition where I won 1st out of 41 entries was about a month later, and now, 3 months after brewing, there are only 5 bottles left (competition entries).

The funk was low from the beginning and remained low throughout. It had that great 3711 silky medium body, an intense citrus-orange start, and a hint of peppery phenol on the finish. The phenols faded first, but everything else has remained pretty much as it started.

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A timely update from earlier. Just took my first hydro reading on the new batch--1.006 after 8 days! Gotta love this yeast!

For this batch, pitched around 68F, I employed no temp control at all. Put the carboy in a closet that probably averaged 72-73F and just let it rock n roll. The Belgian character--spicy phenols and citrus over a hint of sweat/funk-- is MUCH more pronounced. I'll keep tabs on that as it ages to see what differences may emerge in longevity.

I found one bottle of last year saison at about 12 months. I'll drink it this weekend and give you guys a readout.

Anyone have any opinions on dry hops that work well with this yeast? My first 3711 batch is finishing up now. I kept the recipe simple to let the yeast come through and get a feel for it (just pilsner, a touch of wheat, and a little sugar, no dry hop). As it was getting close to time to bottle, I remembered I had a couple 1 gallon jugs so I filled two of 'em and dry hopped with .4oz Cascade in one, and .4oz Willamette in the other. Thought a little citrus, a little spice might be nice, and I've still got 3 gallons with no dry hop. Any opinions on this? Do you prefer your 3711 saisons with no dry hop or any in particular?

I like a nice hoppy saison; I find that spicier ones like saaz or chinook do well to complement the natural flavors of the yeast, but cascade or centennial can be excellent for complementing the citrusy aspects of it as well. Of your choices, I'd bet the cascade will be better, but that's just because I haven't had a lot of great experiences with willamette, myself .

I wasn't saying that funk retention might increase with fermentation temps, but that funk level might. So if Saison A was fermented cool and enjoyed young, and Saison B fermented warm and aged several months, by that time the funk level might have faded some, but only to the point of a young Saison A. If Saison A were aged, it might get boring because the mellower funk would die out to nothing, as one poster mentioned above.

That was my hypothesis, anyway. I'm still interested in anyone's results.

I'm quite glad this thread has been more active lately. Although my brothers won't let me brew a saison anytime soon- we've made wayyy too many saisons- I'm itching to get more of a handle on this yeast.

We mentioned dry hops- I've done that with a little hallertau on a table saison, and it was lovely. I think the floral aspects of noble hops really complement this yeast.
(think Thierez extra- one of my favs)

What bothers me so much about this yeast are two things:

1. aging this yeast- while still good- gets a little boring. It gets a little too one-dimensional citrusy.
Fermenting hot does help- but I don't like the higher alcohols that come out-

2. My biggest grief about the yeast is that people ALWAYS prefer the 3724 when I make saisons. So it's hard to really want to get this one perfect with 3724 available.
(I do like blending them)

Have you guys tried Ama Bionda?

I have a sneaking suspicion that they are using 3711 or a very similar yeast. This leads me to think of 3711 as a perfect one for a "smooth" and easy drinking saison. Both Ama Bionda and Thierez extra have that really nice bready character that other saisons don't seem to have. (think Dupont)

I know a lot of this has to do with the soft/hard water- so it looks like I have more experimentation to do.