Sour wort berliner project: advice needed

So much to my surprise, my attempt at a sour wort Berliner Weisse is actually coming along rather nicely. Yesterday I did a partial mash with 4 pounds of wheat and mixed that with 2 pounds of light DME - threw all this in the fermenter along with a quick Hallertau hop tea and a vial of Whitelabs lacto, and things seem to be going swimmingly. There's vigorous airlock action and I'm getting a lovely "clean-sour" smell from the brew.

I was hoping to do this no-boil, by throwing in about 5/4ths of a normal k-metabisulfite dosage as soon as I'm content with the level of sourness of my beer, letting it kill off the lacto, and then pitching Wyeast 1007 about 36 hours later.

First question: what will k-meta do to my beer? Will it mess with the flavor significantly? Will it succeed in killing off the lacto?

and the second: Do I really need to make a massive yeast starter, or can I just confidently throw in the contents of a Wyeast smack pack of 1007 and expect that to handle my fermentation needs?

btw, #excited.

Yeast gets real grumpy at low pH. What you're doing, I've done a few times, though I didn't sulfite. I just heated to 150* and held for 30min to sterilize. I use a whole yeast cake, and that works well. I don't really think you can have too much yeast for a really sour BW.

I've never tried k-meta, but the dosage depends on the pH of the beer/wine/whatever. It does have a flavor, so I probably wouldn't use it.

Interesting... I'm beginning to wonder about the boil route. Then again, the total amount of k-meta would be less than a teaspoonful, and I kinda doubt it could hit the beer that hard. No-boil is just so intriguing to me...

Is the campden idea a no-go?

Now, to get going on that starter...

I've realized I'm not clear on something: what's the point of killing off all the Lactobacillus? Why is it important to do so, rather than just tossing in the yeast?

I only kill the lacto pre-ferment to keep everything on the cold side sterilized. I don't want to expose my fermentor, my autosiphon, and my bottling bucket to a large lacto infection. You might be able to effectively sanitize it afterwards, but it's not a risk I'm willing to take.

I'd assume if you add enough k-meta to kill the lacto that it would also kill the yeast no matter how long you waited after the k-meta application. I don't think it dissipates. Easiest way is to just bring the wort to a boil or near boil again and kill the lacto. Anything over 180 should be fine and hold it for a while.

I've never had a problem with lacto infecting my fermenters or bottling bucket. It can't survive 4% ABV or 20 IBUs or eat dextrins, so even if some does carry into the next batch, it doesn't pose near the risk that Brett would. I don't think it will survive a 30-minute bleach bath or whatever your preferred method of sanitation is. However, it won't survive pasteurization either, and the lactic acid doesn't boil until around 250 degrees.

kingwood-kid said:

I've never had a problem with lacto infecting my fermenters or bottling bucket. It can't survive 4% ABV or 20 IBUs or eat dextrins, so even if some does carry into the next batch, it doesn't pose near the risk that Brett would. I don't think it will survive a 30-minute bleach bath or whatever your preferred method of sanitation is. However, it won't survive pasteurization either, and the lactic acid doesn't boil until around 250 degrees.

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There are many different kinds of Lactobacillus. Some of them are very tolerant of hops and alcohol. From my personal experience, Brettanomyces is easier to kill than the more robust Lactobacillus strains.

Nateo said:

There are many different kinds of Lactobacillus. Some of them are very tolerant of hops and alcohol. From my personal experience, Brettanomyces is easier to kill than the more robust Lactobacillus strains.

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Which strains Nateo?

And which strains are carried by Wyeast/WL?

Nateo said:

There are many different kinds of Lactobacillus. Some of them are very tolerant of hops and alcohol. From my personal experience, Brettanomyces is easier to kill than the more robust Lactobacillus strains.

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Brett isn't particularly hard to kill, cell by cell; the issue is that you have to completely eradicate it for it not to show itself in the next beer because of its ability to thrive on waste and leftovers. I suppose with the lacto strains that can survive in finished beer, total eradication would be the goal. But unless I'm mistaken, lacto doesn't eat dextrins or thrive at 65 degrees, so its effects on beer flavor and stability would be less of a concern than with Brett. Still a concern I suppose..

Is killing the lacto simply a problem with disinfecting scratches and imperfections in the hardware, or do these strains just shrug off most everything we use to disinfect?

I only use wild Lacto bugs. Not sure what mix I'm getting exactly, or how many strains. I keep one bucket full of pale soured wort and one bucket full of dark soured wort, and I blend those to taste. After blending a soured portion with a completely fermented unsoured portion, the Lacto is still present but doesn't usually drop the pH by much, if at all (maybe -0.1-2 pH) , and doesn't normally drop the gravity, if at all.

I now use a completely separate set of plasticwear for my sour beers. Once established, the Lacto will outcompete everything else even at room temp. Even with separate plasticwear, they're kept right next to each other and I've had a few batches of clean beer infected with Lacto. Once fermentation is complete, the Lacto can still form a pellicle even in pretty strong beer (7-8%, that I've seen. It may be possible at higher ABV as well).

Starsan is basically worthless when dealing with a wild Lacto infection. It forms a biofilm that is pretty resilient to dish soap, scrubbing with a soft sponge, and PBW. I use the bleach/water/vinegar at a ratio of 10ml:5L:10ml. If you soak the bucket in that for about 2-5min you'll see the biofilm break off and you can dump it out with the sanitizer. Brett is much more susceptible to Starsan and alkali cleansers.

Now, once in the bottle, even though the Lacto won't necessarily drop the pH or gravity perceptibly in an already "finished" beer, the bugs will still increase turbidity, which increases nucleation sites which can induce gushers.

Nateo said:

Now, once in the bottle, even though the Lacto won't necessarily drop the pH or gravity perceptibly in an already "finished" beer, the bugs will still increase turbidity, which increases nucleation sites which can induce gushers.

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This is 100% true. I've had standard gushers that were overcarbed; they shoot right out of the bottle as soon as it's opened. The berliner I have gives the typical beer hiss when opened, but then you can watch the gathering storm at the bottom of the bottle. It's an awesome show, which I would post a video of here were I not senile Amish grandparent level competent when it comes to that sort of technology.