Need help with my water levels!

I'm a newbie who has just finished making my first batch of brew :rockin:.

While I wait for it to bottle condition I'm looking at getting a little more in depth for my next batch. I figured I'd get a water report to see how my tap water is, and adjust according to whatever beer type I decide to make next.

However, after talking to the Administrator of Operations for my local water treatment facility, they could only give me levels of Calcium, Magnesium, Sodium, and Alkalinity (carbonates). So I have a few questions:

1) If my water treatment facility can't give me levels of Sulfate and Chloride then how can I get this? Is there an inexpensive testing kit I can purchase?

2) Am I right in assuming the "Alkalinity (carbinates)" is CaCO3 and not HCO3-, in which case I have to multiply the value by 1.22 to get the true HCO3- value?

3) I can use calculators to figure out what kind of additions I need to add, but not sure when to add these. Do I add them to the water right at the beginning before I even start boiling?

- Houdini

1. http://www.wardlab.com/FeeSchedule/WaterAnalysis.aspx Do it

2. yes CaCO3, I do not think there is any conversion needed, someone else might have a better answer.

3. Yes

Houdini said:

2) Am I right in assuming the "Alkalinity (carbinates)" is CaCO3 and not HCO3-, in which case I have to multiply the value by 1.22 to get the true HCO3- value?
- Houdini

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Multiplying by 1.22 will get you close to the HCO3- concentration.

I recommend downloading this: https://sites.google.com/site/brunwater/

In addition to being an awesome tool, it has a lot of info about the why's and how's of what it's calculating, and water treatment in general.

Wow, thanks for the quick replies! I'll check out those two sites, it sounds like they should give me all the info I need.

- Houdini

You didn't say if you were doing all grain brewing or extract brewing. If you're doing extract, then your water quality is not nearly as important. As long as your water doesn't make you gag when you drink it, it should be fine to brew with for extract brewing.

Ward Labs does a good job of analyzing your water for cheap.

The bru n' water application is overly complicated in my (newbie) opinion. I much prefer EZ water 3.0 to figure out water. Also a free application.

For now I plan on doing partial mash brewing, with the possibility of moving to AG brewing later on. How important is water quality with PM brewing? Would it be worth the effort to tweak the mineral levels?

- Houdini

Water Chemistry is really only important for achieving the proper mash PH of 5.2-5.6. It is really about extracting unwanted tannins from the grains and making sure you have optimal PH for starch conversion.

Though I applaud your enthusiasms, and think it's awesome to want to concentrate on water formulas, as a new brewer I would focus more on your mechanics for now. Get the process of brewing, temp control, recipe formulation, and sanitization down. Water is really one of the last things to start playing with. If your water is drinkable you can brew with it.

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squirrelly said:

Water Chemistry is really only important for achieving the proper mash PH of 5.2-5.6. It is really about extracting unwanted tannins from the grains and making sure you have optimal PH for starch conversion.

Though I applaud your enthusiasms, and think it's awesome to want to concentrate on water formulas, as a new brewer I would focus more on your mechanics for now. Get the process of brewing, temp control, recipe formulation, and sanitization down. Water is really one of the last things to start playing with. If your water is drinkable you can brew with it.

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Boy, I don't agree with that at all. Beer is made up of mostly water, so it's very important. Chlorine or chlormines in the brewing water can absolutely ruin the beer, and so can a high alkalinity. It has a lot more to do with the flavor of the beer than the mash pH!

I'd ask the water company if they use chlorine and/or chloramines. If it's the former, chlorine can be boiled off or it will even dissipate just put putting your water out overnight. Chloramines need treatment- usually with campden tablets in the brewing water prior to brewing.

Generally, though, tweaking any mineral levels won't be necessary for extract or PM brewing. You just want to have a chlorine/chloramine-free water without high levels of iron. High alkalinity can be an issue as well, so if your water has high levels of bicarbonate, you'll want to dilute it with some bottled reverse osmosis water.

I agree with Yooper. The reason you can use distilled water with malt extract is that the extract contains whatever minerals the extract manufacturer used in their mash. So if you have out-of-whack water to start with, and you add all the manufacturer's minerals too, you could end up with some pretty bad beer.

Ward Labs charges $16.50 for a basic test. I think it's some of the best money you can spend on brewing.

I agree with yooper on the chlorine, though most municipal water supplies today use an amount of chlorine and chlorides that will be boiled off during a routine 90 minute boil. The reason I am wary of advising new brewers to use RO or distiller water is because they will usually use it for their yeast starters as well. Where you get the needed nutrients from the malt extracts in your wort boil, such is not always the case with a yeast starter. Using RO or distilled water for your starter could be counter productive.

I would say as long as you are doing the recommended 90 min. Boil, however; the chlorine should dissipate from your brewing water.

squirrelly said:

I agree with yooper on the chlorine, though most municipal water supplies today use an amount of chlorine and chlorides that will be boiled off during a routine 90 minute boil. The reason I am wary of advising new brewers to use RO or distiller water is because they will usually use it for their yeast starters as well. Where you get the needed nutrients from the malt extracts in your wort boil, such is not always the case with a yeast starter. Using RO or distilled water for your starter could be counter productive.

I would say as long as you are doing the recommended 90 min. Boil, however; the chlorine should dissipate from your brewing water.

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I've never heard of chlorides being added as a municipal treatment. Could you elaborate on that? Do you have a link to that info?

When malt extract is created, isn't the malt extract boiled by the manufacturer? What new nutrients are created in wort boiled for 90min that aren't present in wort boiled for, say 15min as in wort for a yeast starter? I've never heard of that either, and I'd be interested in where you heard that.

The purpose of a 90 minute boil is to release DMS and also allow for carmalazation in the kettle. According to jamile zanachef we should always do 90 min boils to make sure the DMS burns off, and is not present when you begin your whirlpool at flame out. The extended boil is also said to alleviate dyacital as well. "The Pope," Jamiel goes into this in great detail on the bi monthly show "Brew Strong" it is usually brought up frequently amongst judges and on "the brewing network."

If you only boil your yeast starter for 15 min with DME then yeast nutrient should be added as well. The boiling for 15 min is mainly for sanitation reasons. Of course you are extracting some nutrients from the DME in your starter, but after adding the yeast nutrients and letting the flask sit on a stir plate for 72 hours, the yeast should have propagated to an acceptable number for wort inoculation. Since we don't want to use the liquid from the starter in our finished wort because that would influence the flavor of the beer, we run that off and the yeast will be healthy enough for a good attenuation.

As far as chlorides go, according to "the brewers encyclopedia" and "the practical brewer" written by the master brewers association of the Americas, chlorides are becoming more common in drinking water because they have a lower odor threshold than chlorine, and therefore you don't get so much of that swimming pool smell from your tap water.

squirrelly said:

The purpose of a 90 minute boil is to release DMS and also allow for carmalazation in the kettle. According to jamile zanachef we should always do 90 min boils to make sure the DMS burns off, and is not present when you begin your whirlpool at flame out. The extended boil is also said to alleviate dyacital as well. "The Pope," Jamiel goes into this in great detail on the bi monthly show "Brew Strong" it is usually brought up frequently amongst judges and on "the brewing network."

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The DMS precursor S-Methyl Methionine is more prevalent in high protein and poorly modified malts. Since pils malts were traditionally less modified, they required a longer boil to drive off DMS. If you're using highly modified malts, or malts with low protein content, DMS shouldn't be a concern. All of the domestic pils malts I've been able to find are highly modified, and have low protein levels.

Since most extract is made from modern malt, and pre-boiled in the manufacturing process to drive off DMS and other volatiles, I don't see how extract would require an additional 90-min boil.

Have you ever made an extract beer that tasted like creamed corn? I haven't, and I've boiled some extract beers for as little as 30min.

squirrelly said:

If you only boil your yeast starter for 15 min with DME then yeast nutrient should be added as well. The boiling for 15 min is mainly for sanitation reasons. Of course you are extracting some nutrients from the DME in your starter, but after adding the yeast nutrients and letting the flask sit on a stir plate for 72 hours, the yeast should have propagated to an acceptable number for wort inoculation. Since we don't want to use the liquid from the starter in our finished wort because that would influence the flavor of the beer, we run that off and the yeast will be healthy enough for a good attenuation.

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Wort is an excellent source of nutrients by itself. If you use an all-malt starter wort, I don't see how boiling longer or shorter would affect the available nutrients. I don't see any reason to add yeast nutrient to the starter.

squirrelly said:

As far as chlorides go, according to "the brewers encyclopedia" and "the practical brewer" written by the master brewers association of the Americas, chlorides are becoming more common in drinking water because they have a lower odor threshold than chlorine, and therefore you don't get so much of that swimming pool smell from your tap water.

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I'm pretty sure you're talking about chloramine. Chloride is an anion that naturally occurs in water, usually with calcium or magnesium. In fact, I frequently chloride to my beer, in the form of CaCl all the time with no ill effects.

My recommendation would be to NEVER boil an extract 90 minutes! It'll have so many flavors from maillard reactions and it will thicken and darken. I often suggest adding the extract at the end of the boil, just to avoid this. Extract has been processed by the manufacturer, and boiling it is just for sanitation really. You may get a hot break, but not always.

I boil almost all of my AG beers for 60 minutes (except those with pilsner malt- I try to remember to boil them for 90 minutes).

I agree. In writing this I had forgotten we were talking about just extract brewing. DMS should not be prevalent in extract brews, but I have judged some that were loaded with diacytal. It is my understanding that a long vigorous boil will alleviate this. Also I've heard boiling with the lid off and chilling with the lid off are good practices as well so those unwanted chemicals which can produce off flavors can escape the kettle.

I understand the argument behind adding the extract to the end of the boil as to not get that "extract twang," and I know quite a few brewers who practice this with great results. I have never done it, for when I was extract brewing I was doing full wort boils, and I was never confidant that the extract would fully dissolve before flame out. I also never used DME except for yeast starters.

As for the 90 min boil, I always do a 90 min mash, 120 min sparge, and 90 min boil on all of my all grain recipes. I started doing this to boil off the extra gallon of wort collected during runoff, and make sure I always hit my numbers dead on. It has just become SOP, and with my system automated the way it is now, the pumps kick on when needed, the burners roar up when temp drops, and the float switch keeps proper water levels in the mash tun. Now I typically just do the 90 minutes because it's what seemed to always work for me; I don't usually think about it too much anymore. Plus the added time gives me a chance to keg some beers that have been conditioning, read, and smoke a pipe just that much longer.

[email protected]. on tap: homemade sarsaparilla and easy virtue blonde. primary: heffewitzen, blow your top steam. conditioning: fruity monk Belgian wit

squirrelly said:

I agree. In writing this I had forgotten we were talking about just extract brewing. DMS should not be prevalent in extract brews, but I have judged some that were loaded with diacytal. It is my understanding that a long vigorous boil will alleviate this. Also I've heard boiling with the lid off and chilling with the lid off are good practices as well so those unwanted chemicals which can produce off flavors can escape the kettle.

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Diacetyl is a function of fermentation, and not the boil. It's generally a by-product of yeast activity. So a long/short/vigorous/etc boil won't impact diacetyl levels at all.

DMS can be an issue with a covered pot, whether extract or AG, so keeping the pot off is always a good idea.