Yeast starter using dry yeast??

Hey everyone,

I heard that one should not make a starter using dry yeast, only with liquid yeast. I was suggested that i should only hydrate dry yeast, nothing more...

Any thoughts on this?

thanks!

Gabriel

Sounds about right to me.

Starter won't hurt anything, but not really necessary.

Hydration is nice for a fast kick off, but thousands have done it without.

For my money, rehydrating yeast takes practically no effort so go for it.

I'll save making starters for liquid yeasts.

alright...sounds about right.

thanks for the heads up!

OK, my totally expert opinion (or at least my recollection) is that starters are not only unnecessary with dry yeast but even a bad idea. I can't cite you chapter and verse, but I remember that much: dry yeast, no starter. period.

Here is the extreme basic rundown on dry vs. liquid.

Dry or "active" yeast is yeast put in a kind of suspended animation. The manufacturer causes the yeast to store up a bunch of "food" reserves. Most dry yeast packs come in 11-11.5 gram packs, making approximately 220-230 billion cells.

There are more viable cells in a pack of dry than liquid. Liquid yeast however do not typically have a high enough cell count to innoculate a 5 gallon batch. Wyeast say their smack packs have 100 billion cells. According to Mr. Malty proper pitching rate for a 5 gallon batch is closer to 180 billion cells.

The point of a starter is to propagate more yeast cells in order to have a healthy amount at pitching time. A packet of dry yeast contains enough for most regular gravity beers (5 gallons) and would require no increase in cell count.
Everyone has their opinion whether to rehydrate or not, ultimately that is your call. Re hydration basically lessens the shock, as opposed to pitching into fresh wort.

Edcculus said:

Here is the extreme basic rundown on dry vs. liquid.

Dry or "active" yeast is yeast put in a kind of suspended animation. The manufacturer causes the yeast to store up a bunch of "food" reserves. Most dry yeast packs come in 11-11.5 gram packs, making approximately 220-230 billion cells.

There are more viable cells in a pack of dry than liquid. Liquid yeast however do not typically have a high enough cell count to innoculate a 5 gallon batch. Wyeast say their smack packs have 100 billion cells. According to Mr. Malty proper pitching rate for a 5 gallon batch is closer to 180 billion cells.

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Well you basically beat me to it, just a little more ellaborate than I can explain in my current state

Not to threadjack but...
John Palmer says two packets to one Cup of water.
I only used one... What does everyone else do?

from howtobrew.com
"6.5 Preparing Yeast and Yeast Starters

Preparing Dry Yeast
Dry yeast should be re-hydrated in water before pitching. Often the concentration of sugars in wort is high enough that the yeast can not draw enough water across the cell membranes to restart their metabolism. For best results, re-hydrate 2 packets of dry yeast in warm water (95-105°F) and then proof the yeast by adding some sugar to see if they are still alive after de-hydration and storage."

Some dry yeast comes in 5 gram packs. Hence 2 packs. I believe Coopers sells the smaller packets. I don't know who else does however.

I usually just use one. Youll be fine.

FWIW, I used a packet of Safale 04 yesterday. My first try with a dry yeast. Obviously I used no starter, and further I didn't rehydrate. Just dumped it directly on 68 degree wort and shook it up for 4 or 5 minutes and then stuck it in my 65 degree basement. Showed bubbles in the blowoff within 3 hours, had a 1 inch krausen by bedtime, and is going full on nuts this AM.

As always, YMMV.

Awesome, thanks to everyone for clearing things up!

I've always used a starter with dry packets. Table sugar boiled in water, then cooled. If it ain't making foam by the time it's pitch time, THEN I get nervous. It's always worked for me. Except two batchs ago, no faom, but I pitched anyhow. Had to sprinkle another packet into the carboy- which worked just fine- no starter, no hydration.

So I think it is another one of theose things HBers fret about, but isn't all that critical.

I made two batches for my Extra Pale Ale on Saturday.

The first showed little or not activity. The second I took a slightly different approach and all is well.

The first one:
I added the packet (safeale us05) of to 1 cup of boiled water cooled to 100 degrees and left it for 15 minutes. Then I added 1 tsp of cooled wort to it thinking it would be a great starter. At about 45 minutes to 1 hour it wasn't doing anything. I started a second batch.

The second one:
I added the packet to 1 cup of boiled water cooled to 100 degrees and left it for 15 minutes. The I added 1 tsp of boiled and then cooled sugar water. At 45 minutes it looked like activity and this is the one I used.

I left the first batch in a dark cabinet for 2 days and it was yet to do anything so it went down the drain..

I'm not sure if I stirred it and shouldn't have or what caused the first batch to go wrong. They were both ordered together with my kit less than a week ago. Both had the same date and everything.. It still bugs me as to what went wrong? maybe too much starsan left in container?

I've been just dumping the yeast in the wort while I transfer to the carboy. Get about the same result as hydrating. I never do a starter. I only use dry yeast. that's the way I brew.

I think next time I'll just hydrate and not add a starter..

casebrew said:

I've always used a starter with dry packets. Table sugar boiled in water, then cooled. If it ain't making foam by the time it's pitch time, THEN I get nervous. It's always worked for me. Except two batchs ago, no faom, but I pitched anyhow. Had to sprinkle another packet into the carboy- which worked just fine- no starter, no hydration.

So I think it is another one of theose things HBers fret about, but isn't all that critical.

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Casebrew, was this on your GF brews? Because I have been thinking about making a starter with dry yeast and yeast nutrient for my GF brews because it's all I can use. Was there a benefit to doing it or would rehydrating do just as well?

What if you were to make a 10 gallon batch and used dry yeast? Would it be harmful to make a starter and split the yeast from a dry package or should I cough up the extra $3 and buy a second package, one for each 5 gallons?

Thanks.

IIRC, the manufacturers of dry yeast say you should not make a starter with dry (aka "proofing," I believe). Rehydrate and pitch. nothing more needed or suggested.

apologeticus said:

IIRC, the manufacturers of dry yeast say you should not make a starter with dry (aka "proofing," I believe). Rehydrate and pitch. nothing more needed or suggested.

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Thanks! I was about to make a starter with some dry D-47 and am glad I read this thread first! Thanks to all for the information! :fro:

So 230 Billion cells is certainly more than a vial of liquid yeast, but even still, isn't it better to pitch 400 Billion than 230 Billion? If you are going to be fermenting cool, in the lower to mid 60's, and you've got some decent gravity to chew through, wouldn't 500 billion cells be better than 230? Better yet... pitching two packs?

I'm trying something that is undoubtedly overkill. This is mostly because of a barleywine that stalled out at 1.040. I hydrated a packet of champagne yeast, then added the rehydrated yeast to a starter that I kept on my stir plate for 2 days.

What I'm trying to figure out is whether a starter is unnecessary or if there is some particular reason NOT to do a starter when using dry yeast?

Before you rehydrate your dry yeast, I recommend looking at the spec sheet for the yeast. Fermentis recommends rehydration of safale (us-05 & s-04) @ 80*f, +-6*, and saflager (s-23 & w-3470) @ 73*f +-6*. 100*f is too hot!

http://www.fermentis.com/FO/60-Beer/60-11_product_rangeHB.asp

So 230 Billion cells is certainly more than a vial of liquid yeast, but even still, isn't it better to pitch 400 Billion than 230 Billion? If you are going to be fermenting cool, in the lower to mid 60's, and you've got some decent gravity to chew through, wouldn't 500 billion cells be better than 230? Better yet... pitching two packs?

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Just like too few cells, too many can cause off flavors.

tjsullivan1 said:

Just like too few cells, too many can cause off flavors.

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From what I have read, overpitching (too many cells) doesn't cause off flavors as much as it causes no flavor (taste your starter beer). Underpitching causes stuck ferms or off flavors due to too much reproduction which depletes nutrient reserves, and results in unhealthy children.

unionrdr said:

Well,1st off the cooper's ale yeast sachet is 7g. But they do have a bigger ale yeast packet that's 15g from Midwest. And they're wrong about dry yeast starters,especially for the small packets. I make a small starter of 1.5C of boiling water with 1/4C of DME. When it gets down to 70-75F,I pitch & recover. I do this before starting my brew day.
3-4hrs later,when I've got thr wort chilled,it's at high krausen & takes off in a few hours. Def needs a blow off as well.
Re-hydrating works almost as well,but the small starter gets them reproducing like mad before pitching. Works great every time. I've had this same argument with cooper's brew tech guy before. Not to mention,many other HB'rs.
All I know is,it works very well.

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Since you preface it by saying "everyone with more knowledge than me disagrees with what I say", there is nothing wrong with your post because people see both sides. However, personal anecdotal evidence isn't good science.

A "sachet" or "packet" is not a SI unit of measure. Viable cell count per gram or ml is what matters.

When I read up on this, the purpose of rehydrating with water vs. sugar solution was related to cell damage due to osmotic pressures forcing things into the cell, or something to that effect. The effect was more significant at brewery scales, but still affects things at the homebrew scale to some extent. The yeast guys give an alternate method of rehydrating directly on the wort, but only for homebrewers(?). My take is that sprinkling works, but is probably not the best method.

The only thing recommended to add to the rehydrating water is some special nutrient that had only selected minerals and other things that would not adversely affect cells during rehydration. Yeast energizer is a big no-no for rehydrating.

Since rehydrating with water is easier than making a sugar solution, it's win-win. Directly sprinkling on the wort is even easier, and is equivalent to rehydrating in a sugar solution, although this is not the ideal method (if you are worried about that). One advantage to rehydrating in water, or sugar water, is a sanity check of viability prior to pitching.

As for the question in the original post- making a "starter" (in the liquid yeast sense of the word) with dry yeast is usually not time or cost effective since the cost of adding more dry yeast to achieve the correct cell count is usually more economical and safer than growing your own. That, and the cell count in a normal "packet" of dry yeast contains the proper cell count for a 5 gal. batch, where liquid yeast "vials" or "packs" may contain less than half the correct cell count.

cwi said:

Since you preface it by saying "everyone with more knowledge than me disagrees with what I say", there is nothing wrong with your post because people see both sides. However, personal anecdotal evidence isn't good science.

A "sachet" or "packet" is not a SI unit of measure. Viable cell count per gram or ml is what matters.

When I read up on this, the purpose of rehydrating with water vs. sugar solution was related to cell damage due to osmotic pressures forcing things into the cell, or something similar. The effect was more significant at brewery scales, but still affects things at the homebrew scale to some extent. The yeast guys give an alternate method of rehydrating directly on the wort, but only for homebrewers(?). My take is that sprinkling works, but is probably not the best method.

The only thing recommended in the rehydrating water was some special nutrient that had only selected minerals and other things that would not adversely affect cells during rehydration. Yeast energizer is a big no-no for rehydrating.

Since rehydrating with water is easier than making a sugar solution, it's win-win. Directly sprinkling on the wort is even easier, and is equivalent to rehydrating in a sugar solution, although this is not the ideal method (if you are worried about that). One advantage to rehydrating in water, or sugar water, is a sanity check of viability prior to pitching.

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I'm not trying to sound like TSA here at all. I just think what they say about dry yeast in starters or my 2tsp of dex in the re-hydrating water isn't all that bad on an HB scale. It starts fairly quickly & with more vigor than pitching dry. And it's my understanding after talking to the cooper's brew tech that they have a nutrient in the dry yeast sachets to keep them viable till they are actually used.
I've seem more sugar used in 1C of water for proofing bread yeast. My 2tsp isn't that much in 1.5C of water. It not only proves viability,but can get them in a reproductive state. Or at least closer to it by pitch time. Visible fermentation starts several hours quicker. And isn't that what we want? Personal anecdotal evidence? Isn't that the same thing researchers do when experimenting with what works & what doesn't? What they can see works,besides what their instruments say?

unionrdr said:

I'm not trying to sound like TSA here at all. I just think what they say about dry yeast in starters or my 2tsp of dex in the re-hydrating water isn't all that bad on an HB scale.

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I don't want to sound too much like a know it all or smart ass either, but it isn't about what "works". Using Fleischman's Rapid Rise bread maker yeast will "work" for homebrewing. It is about understanding (and perpetuating) what is actually happening, not anecdotes. The truth is out there, especially regarding yeast.

In summary, before the novel length rebuttal:
The current best practice is to rehydrate with plain drinking water, possibly adding the fancy rehydration fairy dust sold by the yeast companies; then pitching after hydrated but before the yeast start feeding on their reserves. That time frame is 45-60 minutes, but that is from memory, and I think it is different in the detailed report I read and what is on the packet and yeast website.

This is where the brewery instructions differ from the homebrewing instructions. The breweries are told to use only water and to cream, while homebrewers are told they can pitch dry; or cream with wort or water. The detailed report I read specifically said that not all methods were equivalent regarding yeast health.

unionrdr said:

It starts fairly quickly & with more vigor than pitching dry.

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Rehydrating in sugar water = dry sprinkling on wort. They are equivalent, so of course it starts faster if you rehydrated before brewing- you have given it a head start. Minus the time difference, the vigor should be very similar as long as the wort is similar to the sugar water starter used. Both should be inferior in "vigor" to plain water hydrated yeast.

unionrdr said:

And it's my understanding after talking to the cooper's brew tech that they have a nutrient in the dry yeast sachets to keep them viable till they are actually used.

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The yeast are dormant, so I don't think they are foraging around in the packet for anything. My reading stated that the yeast companies manipulate the yeast to make them store up reserves prior to drying them. I am not positive whether there is something used to help bind them into granules that also helps rehydrate, but from memory, it is just yeast.

unionrdr said:

I've seem more sugar used in 1C of water for proofing bread yeast. My 2tsp isn't that much in 1.5C of water.

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The information regarding what happens if sugar water (or water + anything) is used to rehydrate is available (from true scientists) if you search for it. As I stated previously- it pushes things into the cells that don't belong there (at that time). I believe it was osmosis related, but could have just been due to a porous cell wall when rehydrating. Either way, the end result is lower viable cell counts and less healthy yeast.

unionrdr said:

It not only proves viability,but can get them in a reproductive state. Or at least closer to it by pitch time.

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I am not sure what visions of yeast's "reproductive state" are dancing around in your head, but 4 hours, 200 billion cells, and 2 tsp of sugar do not equate to a yeast orgy. They are probably chewing up reserves 30 min in.

It just as easy to gauge general yeast viability with plain water as it is with sugar water. Same goes for dry bread yeast, which is the same species as beer yeast and manufactured in a very similar, if not exactly the same, method. There is yeasty action when rehydrating with just plain water.

unionrdr said:

Visible fermentation starts several hours quicker. And isn't that what we want?

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No, we want the proper cell count of healthy yeast that won't produce off flavors or stall out.

See earlier comments on why it starts earlier and why sugar, or most anything, in the water is bad for rehydrating. If you rehydrated with plain water, they would also have a head start over dry pitching. It is a bit more complicated if you want a large head start and to rehydrate with only water because they need water (only) to hydrate, but after hydrated (~30 min?) they need food immediately or they start using their reserves to live on which should go towards reproduction. So you can't get more than a ~30 min head start on dry sprinkling, at least not without hydrating first (water only), then feeding (sugar, nutrients), then pitching. That seems like a lot of work and risk for a couple hour head start.

unionrdr said:

Personal anecdotal evidence? Isn't that the same thing researchers do when experimenting with what works & what doesn't? What they can see works,besides what their instruments say?

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No, anecdotal evidence would be: Every time when I swing a dead chicken over my head, my yeast hydrate better. Therefore, swinging a dead chicken causes my yeast to hydrate better.
Scientific study is a little more involved. It relies on more than personal gut feeling about what works better, and (usually) tries to connect cause with effect- root cause, causal factors, blah, blah...

In the end, with homebrewing, it is all personal opinion and preference. I will just say I feel that hydrating with water only (or with the pricey special yeast rehydrator they sell) results in the highest viable cell counts and healthiest yeast. I base this opinion on research done by people willing to spend more time and money on researching the issue than me, instead of forming my own opinion based on personal experiences and beliefs that contradict the current state of the art. Since the state of the art regarding yeast isn't likely to be overturned by a guy brewing in his garage, I think this is a safe bet.

That said, there is lots of wiggle room in making beer- just look at the Belgians. They merely open up the windows to pitch their yeast. It is only when pushing the boundaries like making a high alcohol beer or very low flavor beer like a lager that things have to be "just so".

Well wouldn't you know it...

I went shopping @ the HBS today, and picked up a nice new 2000mL breaking-bad flask. Figured since I'll be brewing on Saturday I'd fire up my first starter ever today. So, I boiled up 2 cups of water with about 3/4 cups of DME, and spilled a bunch on my stove, and all that fun stuff. But then came a decision: do I brew my Tankhouse clone (extract w/ US-05), or Yooper's dogfish 60 clone (AG using 1056) on Saturday? Well, I picked the Tankhouse, so I threw the dry yeast in to the flask. Now it's sitting there, rehydrating and probably about to go bat****-crazy soon.

But after reading this thread, I'm scared. Being a responsible home brewer, I have extra yeast. Should I:
a) Just use the dry yeast that I threw in the starter.
b) Abort starter, and just rehydrate the other packet when the time comes.

Keep in mind I made the starter because I've been having trouble getting my LME+grain recipies to get below 1.020 FG. This will be my last LME brew, as I've constructed a mash tun today to make the AG jump.

paulster2626 said:

Keep in mind I made the starter because I've been having trouble getting my LME+grain recipies to get below 1.020 FG. This will be my last LME brew, as I've constructed a mash tun today to make the AG jump.

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It is not as big an issue as it appears based on this thread. I only went on the rant to get the facts straight. For most situations, it doesn't matter.

If you have been rehydrating with wort for the previous batches, it might be worth trying a proper rehydration with water on a batch (not necessarily this one) to see if it helps. You might also check into other best practices like aerating, proper pitching temps, having yeast and wort at similar temps, etc.

If you are going to be using liquid yeast regularly, building a stir plate helps with the starters.

I have a simple question, if I look at what mr. malty tells me, I would need 3 packs of dry yeast for 10 gallons of beer at 1.080, approx 550 billions cells, Would it hurt anything to make a starter with one pack to reach those 550 billions cells? I ask because I don't want to take 3 packs for this beer.

felixsth said:

I have a simple question, if I look at what mr. malty tells me, I would need 3 packs of dry yeast for 10 gallons of beer at 1.080, approx 550 billions cells, Would it hurt anything to make a starter with one pack to reach those 550 billions cells? I ask because I don't want to take 3 packs for this beer.

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I make starters with liquid yeast, and I just rehydrate dry yeast. Not once have I ever used as much as Mr Malty wants me to. Not one time. My beer comes out just fine.

Mr. Malty is insane.

General rule of thumb for dry yeast:

For every 5 gallons of OG Wort 1.060 or lower use 1 packet 11.5 g of yeast. Anything higher than 1.060, use 2 packets per 5 gallons. I always sprinkle, and I've never had an issue.

felixsth said:

I have a simple question, if I look at what mr. malty tells me, I would need 3 packs of dry yeast for 10 gallons of beer at 1.080, approx 550 billions cells, Would it hurt anything to make a starter with one pack to reach those 550 billions cells? I ask because I don't want to take 3 packs for this beer.

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it would probably just be easier (and not any more expensive) to pitch the 3 packs of dry. not to mention, all the makers of dry yeast recommend AGAINST making a starter with their product.

mrmalty is not insane, it's an app or a web based calculator. it's designed to ensure proper pitch rates and errs on the said of a healthy pitch. i know a lot of folks say they underpitch with no ill results, but i don't think many of those people have done a side by side with the same wort, half under pitched, half pitched properly and tested those results. it's one of those things that if your process is solid yet you still under pitch, chances are it'll be ok, but that leaves a risk of stressed yeast flavors in beer from time to time. why risk that when you can easily pitch a proper amount of yeast and lessen the risk of stressed yeast fouling your brew?

FWIW, i've found with certain strains, an 'overpitch' produces a better brew than pitching what mrmalty suggests. i've also found with some strains that a gross underpitch will still produce a great beer. that said, i go with suggested pitch rates for most beers, and have great results to show for it.

Lots of great info in this thread. Good read!

NordeastBrewer77 said:

mrmalty is not insane, it's an app or a web based calculator. it's designed to ensure proper pitch rates and errs on the said of a healthy pitch. i know a lot of folks say they underpitch with no ill results, but i don't think many of those people have done a side by side with the same wort, half under pitched, half pitched properly and tested those results. it's one of those things that if your process is solid yet you still under pitch, chances are it'll be ok, but that leaves a risk of stressed yeast flavors in beer from time to time. why risk that when you can easily pitch a proper amount of yeast and lessen the risk of stressed yeast fouling your brew?

FWIW, i've found with certain strains, an 'overpitch' produces a better brew than pitching what mrmalty suggests. i've also found with some strains that a gross underpitch will still produce a great beer. that said, i go with suggested pitch rates for most beers, and have great results to show for it.

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All of your points are valid, I guess I'm just not at that stage of being a master brewer yet. Too many other things to worry about. Mr Malty wants me to pitch a gallon+ of yeast sometimes. Screw that business.

paulster2626 said:

All of your points are valid, I guess I'm just not at that stage of being a master brewer yet. Too many other things to worry about. Mr Malty wants me to pitch a gallon+ of yeast sometimes. Screw that business.

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it's not a matter of experience, it's just knowing that a proper pitch is better than an under pitch. you don't even need a starter if you don't want to make one, just use dry and pitch the recommended weight. i think it's well worth the 'effort' to make even a gal+ starter for a brew that calls for it. i have a 2L starter of 1098 for a beer this weekend, took me ten mins to boil, 15 to chill, 30 seconds to pitch. 36 hours later i have over an inch of yeast in the bottom. well worth the 25 mins, 30 seconds it took out of my wednesday evening.

Sorry for the bump, however I believe that there is a dimension not covered in the above discussion. As a brewer from the far northern parts of europe, it is not as easy as just buying another pack as the nearest brewshop is far away and ordering only a yeast pack would make the yeast unproportionally expensive - and sometimes you find yourself with a little time on your hands - not next week but perhaps next day.

So: question: - if I were aiming for doing a 20l (5 gal) lager and hence needed almost double the cell count that is in a 11.5 dry pack according to the mrmalty calculator and the fridge has one and only one pack of yeast - is there anyone here that still would go against doing a 1l starter the day before - as the alternative would be to just hydrate the yeast and pitch it as is (underpitching!)?