consistantly low OG

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good day folks. brewed my second batch of AG last evening (Waldo lake amber) and it says I shoulda hit 1.063 but I only managed 1.054. I brewed a brown ale and was also off on my OG by .010, where in the heck am I going wrong?

I nailed my rest temps, I started boil w 6.25 and wound up w 5.25gal in the carboy.

I am very comfortable with everything but sparging and mashout. I think I have read just enough about both to be confusing.
 
NordeastBrewer77 said:
sounds like you're not getting the efficiency that the recipe expects. are you using software?

I use brewersfriend.com for software as it is free (at the moment). it calculated my efficiency to be 54%, horrible. I know this sucks just don't know what I am doing wrong.

i tend to lean towards my mashout/sparging technique, or lack of, as the issue
 
Could be something as simple as the grain crush. Did you get your grains from your LHBS, or an online retailer? The online guys are typically pretty good with the crush, but I find my LHBS guys will just give me the setting the last guy had, unless I ask them to adjust it. I get them to do a quick sample crush and make sure there are no leftover whole grains, and if there are, ask them to adjust a little finer until it's right.
 
TopherM said:
Could be something as simple as the grain crush. Did you get your grains from your LHBS, or an online retailer? The online guys are typically pretty good with the crush, but I find my LHBS guys will just give me the setting the last guy had, unless I ask them to adjust it. I get them to do a quick sample crush and make sure there are no leftover whole grains, and if there are, ask them to adjust a little finer until it's right.

I get my grains from NB. they look crushed to me but what do I know :):)

how should properly crushed grain look?
 
Efficiency issues most often come from a poor grain crush. One thing to try is do a longer mash, like 90 minutes rather than 60.
 
NordeastBrewer77 said:
can you post your mashing/sparging process? maybe i can help.

just promise not to laugh ;)

this batch says it required a 60min mash @ 153 and a 10min mash out @ 170

I preheated my mashtun added 4.5gal of h20 @ 164degs and doughed In my 14.5lbs of grain. I hit 153.8 degs at the start of my mash and ended at 153.3 degs.

here is where it gets tricky for me, mashout. I have yet to completely wrap my head around this process. I feel like I am over thinking it. so I attempted to mashout and raise my mashtun temp to 170 but only got it to 168. I didn't calculate how much water I dumped in to reach 168 I just dumped in till I hit it. I stirred a bit and closed it up for 10mins.

I then drained off about 2qts and added it back to the mash. I then proceeded to start draining the mashtun. so as I am draining I am also adding water to top off and stay an inch or 2 above the grain bed. now this is the part where I get confused, I don't know what temp water to be adding to the mash as I am draining, in this case it was 180ish, and exactly how much to add to achieve my 6.25gal boil volume.

so I stopped adding sparge water after a gallon or two. that being said my mashtun drained empty and I was a gallon short of my boil volume. so I dumped in about 2 more gals and it ran off into my pot to boil and once I hit my 6.25gal boil volume I turned the spigot off and started my boil.

I did take a preboil og and it was 1.046
 
Sounds like you're doing a proper batch sparge for the most part. I'd tend to blame the crush at this point, but would you care to post your recipe?
 
tre9er said:
Sounds like you're doing a proper batch sparge for the most part. I'd tend to blame the crush at this point, but would you care to post your recipe?

HOME BREW RECIPE:
Title: Waldo Lake Amber

Brew Method: All Grain
Style Name: American Amber Ale
Boil Time: 60 min
Batch Size: 5.5 gallons
Boil Size: 6.25 gallons
Efficiency: 70%

STATS:
Original Gravity: 1.066
Final Gravity: 1.017
ABV (standard): 6.53%
IBU (tinseth): 49.64
SRM (morey): 12.95

FERMENTABLES:
7.75 lb - Pale 2-Row (54.39%)
4 lb - Munich Dark (28.07%)
2 lb - CaraRed (14.04%)
0.5 lb - Melanoidin (3.51%)

HOPS:
1 oz - Cascade (AA 7) for 60 min, Type: Pellet, Use: First Wort
0.75 oz - Magnum (AA 15) for 60 min, Type: Pellet, Use: Boil
1 oz - Centennial (AA 7.8) for 0 min, Type: Pellet, Use: Boil

MASH STEPS:
1) Sparge, Temp: 153 F, Time: 60 min, Amount: 18.75 qt
2) Temp: 170 F, Time: 10 min, mashout

YEAST:
Wyeast - Denny's Favorite 50 1450
Starter: Yes
Form: Liquid
Attenuation (avg): 75%
Flocculation: Low
Optimum Temperature: 60 F - 70 F

WATER PROFILE:
Profile Name: Poland Sping
 
It sounds like you are doing traditional brewing with a separate mash tun and brew kettle. For traditional AG brewing, practically all of the grain husks should be cracked, but practically all of the grain husks should still be intact, i.e., still held together, and practically no uncracked grains. Check out this pic:

http://www.homebrewjunkie.com/2008/07/what-does-good-grain-crush-look-like.html

If you do BIAB, you can crush alot finer without adverse effects, because there is no possibility of a stuck sparge.
 
TopherM said:
It sounds like you are doing traditional brewing with a separate mash tun and brew kettle.

yes this is how my setup is

thank you for the link. my grain did look similar to the image.

so let me throw this question out there. what temp should my sparge water have been? and should I have not let my mashtun run dry?
 
so let me throw this question out there. what temp should my sparge water have been? and should I have not let my mashtun run dry?

You're just trying to get the grain bed over 168 or so to denature the enzymes. The bigger purpose of sparging is to rinse the sugars out of the grain bed. I'd still like to see your recipe.
 
tre9er said:
You're just trying to get the grain bed over 168 or so to denature the enzymes. The bigger purpose of sparging is to rinse the sugars out of the grain bed. I'd still like to see your recipe.

I posted a few posts up :)
 
HOME BREW RECIPE:
Title: Waldo Lake Amber

Brew Method: All Grain
Style Name: American Amber Ale
Boil Time: 60 min
Batch Size: 5.5 gallons
Boil Size: 6.25 gallons
Efficiency: 70%

STATS:
Original Gravity: 1.066
Final Gravity: 1.017
ABV (standard): 6.53%
IBU (tinseth): 49.64
SRM (morey): 12.95

FERMENTABLES:
7.75 lb - Pale 2-Row (54.39%)
4 lb - Munich Dark (28.07%)
2 lb - CaraRed (14.04%)
0.5 lb - Melanoidin (3.51%)

HOPS:
1 oz - Cascade (AA 7) for 60 min, Type: Pellet, Use: First Wort
0.75 oz - Magnum (AA 15) for 60 min, Type: Pellet, Use: Boil
1 oz - Centennial (AA 7.8) for 0 min, Type: Pellet, Use: Boil

MASH STEPS:
1) Sparge, Temp: 153 F, Time: 60 min, Amount: 18.75 qt
2) Temp: 170 F, Time: 10 min, mashout

YEAST:
Wyeast - Denny's Favorite 50 1450
Starter: Yes
Form: Liquid
Attenuation (avg): 75%
Flocculation: Low
Optimum Temperature: 60 F - 70 F

WATER PROFILE:
Profile Name: Poland Sping

At 77% efficiency I come up with 1.067 using mostly the exact parameters above.
 
At 77% efficiency I come up with 1.067 using mostly the exact parameters above.

hmm wonder why the software i use came up with 70% efficiency...

so what efficiency do you hit when you calculate in my OG of 1.054??

I am still about 10 points lower on the hydrometer then i should be that i do know :confused:
 
Did you measure your mash pH? Is it in the right range?
How about testing for residual starch? I always do a quick iodine test on a sample of wort from the mash tun at the 45 50 and 60 minute mark. If there are any signs of residual starch I keep mashing. Sometimes I have to take it to 80 minutes.
Lowering your mash temperature to 150 may help the amylase conversion and increase your efficiency.
Also perhaps you are not sparging long enough?
 
just promise not to laugh ;)

I feel like I am over thinking it. so I attempted to mashout and raise my mashtun temp to 170 but only got it to 168. I didn't calculate how much water I dumped in to reach 168 I just dumped in till I hit it. I stirred a bit and closed it up for 10mins.

I then drained off about 2qts and added it back to the mash. I then proceeded to start draining the mashtun. so as I am draining I am also adding water to top off and stay an inch or 2 above the grain bed. now this is the part where I get confused, I don't know what temp water to be adding to the mash as I am draining, in this case it was 180ish, and exactly how much to add to achieve my 6.25gal boil volume.

so I stopped adding sparge water after a gallon or two. that being said my mashtun drained empty and I was a gallon short of my boil volume. so I dumped in about 2 more gals and it ran off into my pot to boil and once I hit my 6.25gal boil volume I turned the spigot off and started my boil.

I did take a preboil og and it was 1.046

Sounds to me like your process requires too much added water to reach mashout that you are not left with enough sparge water...you are also attempting a semi fly sparge by trickling water through the grain bed which may not be rinsing the grain very well due to channeling. I would try skipping the mashout and try and reserve 50% of your total wort volume for a separate sparge. Check out these two simple batch sparge procedures below, neither do a mashout, simply put, mash with half your water and do one separate sparge with the other half...bobbys method actually calls for two batch sparges but this may only gain you a couple points.
http://hbd.org/cascade/dennybrew/
http://www.suebob.com/brew/Bobby_Mallgrainprimer.pdf
 
I agree. I'd vorlauf and drain, batch, stirring before each vorlauf. No need to mash out. Just make sure sparge water raises grain bed sufficiently
 
I think pH is definitely worth considering here. It sounds like your sparge technique is a hybrid fly sparge and that should be able to get you up to 70% at least. Also you might want to check that your thermometer is calibrated correctly, you could be way off your temps and that would cause efficiency to drop. Also how long had you had your grain before you brewed? Pre-crushed grain should be used ASAP. I recommend calibrating your thermometer and picking up some pH test strips before you scrap your sparge technique, mine was very similar to yours when I started out.
 
tre9er said:
I agree. I'd vorlauf and drain, batch, stirring before each vorlauf. No need to mash out. Just make sure sparge water raises grain bed sufficiently

ok so vorlauf and drain then add sparge water stir vorlauf and drain till it hit my starting boil volume. this correct?
 
ok so vorlauf and drain then add sparge water stir vorlauf and drain till it hit my starting boil volume. this correct?

Yes. Take a sample preboil, cool it, then see what your gravity is while you boil. If it's low, boil off more. Better to have less beer that's on-point for numbers than more watered-down beer.
 
When I buy from Northerbrewer I usually get a lower efficiency then from other vendors such as BMW. I don't care much for their crush...but that's just me.

Are you doing anything to your water? This could be adding to your problem. Poland Spring, as indicated in your recipe, has very little minerals in it. What's you mash ph? When I moved 3 years ago I had to start playing around with my water as I have well water that is no good for brewing.

I moved to distilled with salt additions and once I started monitoring and measuring my ph, and adjusting as needed with either 5.2 buffer or acids I got a 10% increase in my mash efficiency.

I now build my water and add about 1/2 the recommended 5.2 buffer and consistently hit 80% when I batch sparge and 70% for no-sparge.
 
tre9er said:
Yes. Take a sample preboil, cool it, then see what your gravity is while you boil. If it's low, boil off more. Better to have less beer that's on-point for numbers than more watered-down beer.

makes sense and agree 100% :)
 
ScottD13 said:
When I buy from Northerbrewer I usually get a lower efficiency then from other vendors such as BMW. I don't care much for their crush...but that's just me.

Are you doing anything to your water? This could be adding to your problem. Poland Spring, as indicated in your recipe, has very little minerals in it. What's you mash ph? When I moved 3 years ago I had to start playing around with my water as I have well water that is no good for brewing.

I moved to distilled with salt additions and once I started monitoring and measuring my ph, and adjusting as needed with either 5.2 buffer or acids I got a 10% increase in my mash efficiency.

I now build my water and add about 1/2 the recommended 5.2 buffer and consistently hit 80% when I batch sparge and 70% for no-sparge.

to be completely honest I have not taken a mash ph OR the ph of my Poland Spring water so it seems to me that this is where I want to start and see if I find anything off here. do you all agree?

my stupidity for not checking the spring water it just tastes so good I figured why bother :)

EDIT: I think I will also incorporate the batch process tri9er mentioned as well
 
Yeah, distilled water may have more minerals than poland spring will. Taking PH of the water and adding minerals until it's where you need it would be helpful. Then if you keep using the same water you'll know the ratio of minerals needed each time.
 
tre9er said:
Yeah, distilled water may have more minerals than poland spring will. Taking PH of the water and adding minerals until it's where you need it would be helpful. Then if you keep using the same water you'll know the ratio of minerals needed each time.

I think Poland spring has a distilled version of their water. I'll check it out.

what is optimum range of ph for water and for mash? there a calculator out there for finding this?
 
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