CIP Pump

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StMarcos

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Getting the bits together to CIP my Brewhemoth. The basic idea is that there will be a 3G bucket under the bottom dump, with a submersible pump. This pump will be hooked to a flex tube running up outside to a modified 4''tc at the top of the brewhemoth. On the other side of the tc will be the spray ball, about 6'' down from the top. The question is about the pump. I bought a 1/4hp sump-type pump (no float switch though). I'm pretty sure this will drive my st pats rotating ball (discontinued model), but am worried that the pump will die quickly in hot pbw and starsan. It's rated to 77F and I will be using it at 120F or so. Think I'll fry it? Also worried that there could be some bits that will corrode in starsan. Should I be? I can return the pump if need be. It was about 80 bucks. The thing is, I want a submersible pump so I can just drop it in the bucket. It's also not rated for continuous duty (draining a swimming pool).

Was this just a bad buy on my part, or are the specs very conservative?

Cheers, etc.
 
You could probably get it to work for you, but would need to do a little investigating as to the construction of the pump. I'm not familiar with all the protocols on brewing yet but with the "starsan" (cleaning chemical I assume) you would need to check it its compatible with what ever the pump is made out of, be it plastic or metal materials. And I'm not only talking about the big parts...you need to look at the materials that would be in contact with the chemical like and screws/washers/ nuts/power cords etc... Most submersible sump-pump types have a shaft seal to worry about. For domestic use they don't have to have high temp seals as all it sees is room temp type water. So first thing I would do is see if there's a way to change out the seal to something more robust if possible. Teflon if available would probably be best all around.

-Walter
 
It should work well....just don't expect it to work forever. The PBW will damage the seals over time, but this can be helped by rinsing well after use.

About CIP- The preferred way to do it is to supply fresh cleaning agent (called a sequestrant for good reason) and then have the vessel drain the wastewater elsewhere. You'll plug your sprayball if you recirc gunk, and your stuff will never truly be clean....just recirculated debris.
 
That makes sense, but I was hoping to be able to save on detergent by recirculating just a small amount. Maybe I can do a drain-to-waste with mains water to get most gunk, then recirculate pbw. Then a drain-to-waste rinse. Then recirculate saniclean....
 
That's pretty much what I do...but I don't sanitize when I'm done....that happens next brew when I put the wort in. Just make sure you drain out any residual water or you'll grow mold.
 
Yeah I guess I meant to let dry before storage, then sanitize before the ferment. Should probably run some clean water through the pump to get the saniclean out before storing the pump.
 
Well I have it all rigged up, and it doesn't work. Doesn't spin, I should say. There is an impressive amount of water coming out the drain back to the bucket. There is also a huge amount of water coming out of the ball at the join between the rotating and stationary parts. It's hard for me to believe that the pump is too wimpy. The warning on the cord says 130F max, while the manual says 78F max. The thermal shutdown did not engage after running for 10min at 120F, so I'm good there.

The pump is a Simer 1/4hp.
Head (ft) / gpm
0 / 30
3 / 27
5 / 25
10 / 21
15 / 15
20 / 6
22 / 0

I guess I should see how long it takes to move 5G out of one bucket an into another, so I can see what sort of pressure the pump is seeing. There is about 5' of 1/2''id reinforced pvc tubing between the pump and the ball. Any advice? Kinda pissed right now (American, not Aussie).
 
I have one of these:

http://www.harborfreight.com/1-hp-3000-gph-dirty-water-submersible-pump-with-float-93819.html

Been working great for almost 2 years now and has plenty of oomph and can handle 5mm particles without clogging. Haven't worried about water temp that much, never really thought about it actually. Running the pump with straight tap water it heats up fairly rapidly and the water temp maxes out at about 100F. Another plus is that when the pump dies they are pretty cheap to replace.
 
Bought another pump after returning the last one. This time I got a Simer 1/2hp pump - the biggest the hardware store had. Made in Italy. Still doesn't work. Most of the water sprays out from where the ball meets the body. Makes me think that there is a flaw in the design, and why St Pats doesn't carry it anymore. Sprays heaps of water, but no spinning. Maybe it needs to be mounted vertically, with the ball pointing up? If so, I'm screwed, because I need to have the ball come in from the top of the fermenter.

This thing wasn't cheap. Maybe 1/2hp still isn't enough?

sprayball.JPG
 
Perhaps an external pump, connected to the bucket via bulkhead? I have a pretty beefy iwaki pressure pump that I can snag in a month or so. Taking down my salt water aquarium. Anyone want a female watanabe angelfish or a mated pair of black and white ocelaris clowns?
 
Hey-
If you don't have any luck w/ that spray head, give this one a try:

McMaster part #: 71445T84
$50

It is designed to work well at lower pressures. My 1/25 hp LG wort pump spins it, albeit I don't get great pressure. My 5 GPM sump pumps on my brewmation do a better job than the wort pump. I guess mag drive pumps are not really great w/ pressure. Anyhoo, this head is polypro, so very light, which is why I'm guessing it rotates easily.

Here is a post with video re: someone who uses a 1/6 hp sump pump and it seems to be working great.

https://www.homebrewtalk.com/f11/conical-question-224537/index4.html#post2800217
 
They also recommended lubricating it. I have some food grade silicone lube for keg o-rings etc., not sure how to get it to the bearings. Seems like it could wash off too.
 
St Pats said that if it rotates by hand, there isn't enough water moving through. I think I'll have to get another ball.

If you're into rotating, the one I mentioned is the cheapest I've found w/ a 1/2" pipe thread. GW Kent sells the same one for $15 more.

I looked at a 45* rotating head with separate nozzle @ McMaster and those weren't cheaper as a combo compared to this one, and this one was supposed to be good at lower PSI.

I wouldn't fool around w/ that head too much. Sell it as new (not slimed w/ silicone) or return it. I think it's meant more for larger fermenters and thus, larger pumps.
 
I think you've got the right idea. Maybe I can register at probrewer and post it up there.

Think BSPP will mate w npt well enough? Or should I get an adapter?
 
Just put more tape for a seal for this nozzle. Or not, I mean... who cares if it drips.

I use Loc-Line in my setup and they make BSPP links for the 1/2" line. I didn't get one for this but they do make it and they are the same price as the others.
 
Excellent, thanks! I wasn't so worried about leaks, but being able to even engage a few threads. Do you think it is appropriate for a homebrewer to sell stuff on probrewer?
 
The only difference between NPT and BSPP is one's tapered (NPT) and the other isn't. So threading a male NPT into a female BSPP is fine with just a little more teflon tape. Might not fit the other way around (male BSPP to female NPT)... dunno.

I don't see why not. I've seen some homebrew folks sell stuff there. Who says you have to give your credentials though.
 
The angle of the threads is 5º different too. BSPP is 55º and NPT is 60º. For the keg/carboy washer, the PVDF BSPP female threads right onto the copper NPT male, I didn't even use any tape or thread sealant.
 
Just put more tape for a seal for this nozzle. Or not, I mean... who cares if it drips.

I use Loc-Line in my setup and they make BSPP links for the 1/2" line. I didn't get one for this but they do make it and they are the same price as the others.

I want to order this CIP, but want to find a true way to mate the 1/2" female BSPP to 1/2" copper pipe. Do you know of a place online that I can order an adapter fitting, or something that connects 1/2" female BSPP to 1/2" copper tubing? If you have a part number that you can post a hyperlink to, that would be hugely beneficial.
 
McMaster.com part numbers:

4092K74
4092K94
5520K11
5520K21

Wow. So it looks like it's $30.52 or $22.64 for the individual adapter, depending on how I want to connect to the pipe.

Edit: I found this Pipe Adapter - Cad-plated Steel -1/2" BSPP Male x 1/2" NPT Female for $10.93.

I have no idea what the shipping charges are (the site has no shipping estimator), and I'm not sure of what, if any, challenges cad-plates steel would present when using certain types of cleaners. Maybe someone else with more knowledge can shed some light on that subject.
 
I am setting up a system like this and need some recs for the pump. I have everything else but I'm having a hard time finding the right positive displacement pump for a good price.

Anyone with suggestions? Ideally I'd like 1/2 NPT fittings on the pumphead.
 
My brother set up a CIP ball with his conical, I'm doing the same with mine right now.

He used this pump from Harbor freight.
http://www.harborfreight.com/34-horsepower-clear-water-pump-69297.html

It is 1" inlet and outlet, he reduced it to 3/4" on the inlet and 1/2" on the outlet, I think that was producing 40psi at the spray ball, which is the optimum working pressure.

I made a Keg washer using this pump
http://www.harborfreight.com/16-horsepower-submersible-utility-pump-68422.html

I have not tried it on my conical yet, but think I will get to setting it up this weekend.

and a 1/2NPT spray ball from Brewers hardware. The spray ball has a minimum working pressure of 10PSI, so this pump was able to make it work.
 
Thanks for the info. I am also using the 1/2 NPT ball from Brewers Hardware. How did he know it was making 40 psi at the ball? Calculated or gauge pressure?

Are you worried about those Harbor Freight pumps at all? They are nice in terms of price but I doubt they are compatible with starsan at all.
 
I'm not too worried I've used them for a while and have only had a problem if I leave the pump submerged for long periods of time.

He calculated the psi, I guess it was 30 not 40.

"So the cip needs 30 psi @ 20 gpm. The pump is rated for 90 ft head . To convert head to psi divide by 2.31. Then multiply psi x gpm /(1714 x .9) pump power in hp, .9 is efficiency just guess. Should be .4 hp i think the hf is 3/4 hp so it can do it. If there are pump curves you can use that too. "
 
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