Belgian Dark Strong Ale The Pious - Westvleteren 12 style quad - multiple

meadowstream said:

Probably the best thing about this forum is learning what others experienced through trial and error (we don't have enough time to make all the mistakes and have all the successes that we have collectively!)

My experience with making high gravity belgian beers has been that if I don't oxygenate my wort enough, or have as successful a starter as I had targeted, then off-flavors that can probably be attributed to phenols and esters are noticeable to an extent that put my palate off a bit. My practice is to use a 2L starter and oxygenate the wort thoroughly prior to pitching (into 15 gallons.) The high DO enables the yeast to continue to propagate healthily for a while prior to starting their relatively unhealthy (for the yeast) anaerobic metabolic pathway.

Has anyone tried brewing this quad with a 65-70 deg F temperature profile? If you have, what is the difference in flavor that you notice?

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Well said. Best post today.

CSI said:

Well said. Best post today.

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I watched a review of the Westy 12 last night, and noted the reviewer's remarks about the bitterness and how well it was balanced with the sweetness. Is this a result of the Westmalle yeast, or something else? Does this clone acheive the same level of bitter/sweet balance?

JordanThomas said:

I watched a review of the Westy 12 last night, and noted the reviewer's remarks about the bitterness and how well it was balanced with the sweetness. Is this a result of the Westmalle yeast, or something else? Does this clone acheive the same level of bitter/sweet balance?

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Our clones have some residual gravity at 1.012 which is mildly sweet but also has a 'sweet' ester character (plummy nose and palate). Both the clones and the Westvleteren 12 have a similar ester profile but the Westy is more subdued in my opinion. Over time the bittering fades in the high ABV bottle conditioning but after a year, (very young in the bottle), it still has a slight detectable bitter. The plummy nose and palate is definitely the Westamalle yeast as it interacts with a balance of sugars.

JordanThomas said:

I watched a review of the Westy 12 last night, and noted the reviewer's remarks about the bitterness and how well it was balanced with the sweetness. Is this a result of the Westmalle yeast, or something else? Does this clone acheive the same level of bitter/sweet balance?

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where did you see the review

CSI said:

Our clones have some residual gravity at 1.012 which is mildly sweet but also has a 'sweet' ester character (plummy nose and palate). Both the clones and the Westvleteren 12 have a similar ester profile but the Westy is more subdued in my opinion. Over time the bittering fades in the high ABV bottle conditioning but after a year, (very young in the bottle), it still has a slight detectable bitter. The plummy nose and palate is definitely the Westamalle yeast as it interacts with a balance of sugars.

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I had a small portion of a westy 12 earlier this week and I got tons of plum out of it and a lot of sweetness but I contributed the sweetness to the higher alcohol levels, not so much the residual sugar levels.

humann_brewing said:

where did you see the review

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The Hopry.

CSI - based on your advice, a 2L starter it is. wlp530 = wy3787 so I'll with whatever my LHBS has in stock.

CSI said:

Well said. Best post today.

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Thanks CSI. I bought several pounds of your CS a few weeks ago and am looking forward to trying it soon. Thanks, too, for posting your recipes on your site and sharing your feedback on what seems to work differently each time.

Gothic_Horror said:

Picked up a Westy Brick in Chicago today!

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Remind me again why I left Chicago?

ultravista said:

I would go with the WLP530 (or it's Wyeast equivalent). I don't think the monks are using ECY

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To the best of my knowledge the ECY09 or ECY13 strains are old defunct Brewtek strains. One of them is very likely the an older genetic variation of the Westmalle yeast and one is likely the Chimay strain. I want to guess that ECY13 is the Chimay yeast and ECY09 is Westmalle. Eitherway I got great flavor and a very delicious beer with ECY09. I'm at the point in my brewing practices that I aim for something I want in the beer rather than try and replicate the another brewery's beer.

If you want something interesting to try split the westy clone and add a little Knudsen's tart cherry juice. For 3 gal I did like 18oz juice and a little bourbon with an oak spiral for 8 weeks. It was an attempt to satisfy a friend and their desire for me to make something similar to bourbon barrel quad.

After going in for a brick of Westy 12 with my good buddy it was just fitting to brew this alongside to test the recipe here. This lead me to a couple new experiences and I am glad for the journey.

First time using the Candi Syrup, I have always made my own and said to hell with the commercial offerings. Since this batch needed to be perfect I purchased D-180 and D-90. The D-90 was remarkably close in flavor to my homemade stuff, very similar aroma and flavor components.. however the D-180 was insanely different! Mine was slightly acidic, bitter(maybe too much heat) and flat lacking the delicate flavors that was in the D-180. This being a major component, the benefits should be easily realized.


One thing that I am torn on is the fermentation temperature.. Right now it is warming up from 65 to 70 after pitching. Having this yeast run full bore at 80+ degrees worries me as I would expect fusel's to be produced. None of my 40ish batches of beers fermented this warm. After seeing this yeast krausen on my stir plate, I can draw inferences on how it will react at 83F.

If the OP is still reading this thread I would be interested in finding out how the temperatures were measured.. 83F does not always mean the internal temperatures in the fermentation vessel was 83F.

Satisfaction said:

If the OP is still reading this thread I would be interested in finding out how the temperatures were measured.. 83F does not always mean the internal temperatures in the fermentation vessel was 83F.

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It's been discussed at length, and we can rest assured that the good fellow knows the difference between ambient and fermenting temps. Just take the leap of faith. Today I bottled a Saison that was fermented at 100 degrees Fahrenheit and there is no hint of alcohol at all despite being almost 9%. Belgian and French stains can behave very differently than English based strains. If it's any consolation I literally just brewed this today and am also letting it go. Just leave plenty of room for blowoff. I put a little under six gallons in a 8 gallon carboy.

bottlebomber said:

It's been discussed at length, and we can rest assured that the good fellow knows the difference between ambient and fermenting temps. Just take the leap of faith. Today I bottled a Saison that was fermented at 100 degrees Fahrenheit and there is no hint of alcohol at all despite being almost 9%. Belgian and French stains can behave very differently than English based strains. If it's any consolation I literally just brewed this today and am also letting it go. Just leave plenty of room for blowoff. I put a little under six gallons in a 8 gallon carboy.

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Well, good timing on the brew day.. hopefully it was flawless besides being longer than normal with the mash and boil times.

So I suppose I should take the leap of faith..

I suggest getting a thermowell for your carboy. I have the 16 incher from Brewers Harware http://www.brewershardware.com/16-Stainless-Steel-Thermowell.html

Take the guess-work out of temperature measurement. My Johnson A419 probe goes into the middle of the wort with a 1 degree differential.

Does anyone use second rubbings? If so - good recipes to post?

No, no second rubbings

ultravista said:

No, no second rubbings

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Too funny - iPad changed. Runnings that is

Ready to brew the new world tomorrow. Have my WLP530 starter going right now. Only had enough DME for a 1.5ML starter @ 1.035. I hope this is enough - feedback/comments welcome.

It's pretty cold here in LV (not East Coast cold ) so my plate chiller should be able to bring the wort down to 60F or so.

ultravista said:

Ready to brew the new world tomorrow. Have my WLP530 starter going right now. Only had enough DME for a 1.5ML starter @ 1.035. I hope this is enough - feedback/comments welcome.

It's pretty cold here in LV (not East Coast cold ) so my plate chiller should be able to bring the wort down to 60F or so.

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I'm going to try old world this week. Recipe from csi....just have to get a good starter going. I have my basement fridge wired to digital temp control and just received my carboy temp stopper so I can control fermentation temps. Looking fwd to trying this. New world came out great so hope I have luck.

Here's mine. I pitched yeast from a very active 3000ml starter and fermentation began within a couple hours. It was just kind of poking along doing its fermenting thing until day two when it took off, went from 68 to 75 degrees in about 5 hours, filled the headspace on this 8 gallon carboy, and the blowoff vessel is making more noise than the fish tank. What a fun beer

bottlebomber said:

Here's mine. I pitched yeast from a very active 3000ml starter and fermentation began within a couple hours. It was just kind of poking along doing its fermenting thing until day two when it took off, went from 68 to 75 degrees in about 5 hours, filled the headspace on this 8 gallon carboy, and the blowoff vessel is making more noise than the fish tank. What a fun beer

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+1 Very nice

Quick note. We've had a number of IM's regarding starters. We generally follow the Jamil Z and Chris W. approach using 10P nutrient balanced wort but additionally we oxygenate 2x's up to high krausen and give it one last blast of O2 prior to crashing and decanting. Once at start, once at 6 hours, and once just prior to chilling. For a 2000ml starter we pitch 165 Billion cells to end at 340-350 billion. The starter tables and charts doc are out on the "Help Docs" section of our site.

Any comments on the 1.5L starter size? Even on a stir plate, the krausen is foaming out the top of the flask. I use a starsan soaked paper towel afixed to the top. The paper towel allows the starter to breath a little.

This is the first starter that has saturated the paper towel and ballooned it out.

bottlebomber - whatcha using in your blowoff jar? Simply water or some other concoction?

ultravista said:

bottlebomber - whatcha using in your blowoff jar? Simply water or some other concoction?

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I just use Starsan. You could probably use water as well with no problems. I see very little risk of suck back over that distance but you never know. Really you should switch over to an airlock before that happens. So far I've had to empty this vessel twice, I had blown off almost a good solid quart of yeast over 24 hours. Really nice looking yeast too. I wish there was a good sanitary way of reclaiming it.

I typically use water with starsan in a dip of the blow off tube. In other words, the off gassing pushes through the starsan on it's way through the tube. Like a U trap under the bathroom sink.

Which version did you brew? Did you go with a single infusion mash?

ultravista said:

I typically use water with starsan in a dip of the blow off tube. In other words, the off gassing pushes through the starsan on it's way through the tube. Like a U trap under the bathroom sink.

Which version did you brew? Did you go with a single infusion mash?

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I did the old world, but instead of decoction mashing I (hiding my face) just added 3% melanoidin malt to the grist. It doesn't perfectly match the qualities but it comes close, and I didn't have the time nor desire for a decoction mash schedule. This was the best tasting wort I have ever had though. You could almost blend it with ice cream and make milk shakes out of it.

What temp was your mash? I am following SAQ's advice of not going over 149F.

ultravista said:

What temp was your mash? I am following SAQ's advice of not going over 149F.

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I mashed at 151. My beers always are super attenuation though. It must be my water. I want this to finish no lower than 1.015, and it's 15% simple sugar as it is.

Did you mash out or just sparge?

I don't mash-out but do dunk sparge my grain bag. The first runnings go directly into a heated keggle.

I just sparged. I use a cooler tun so mashing out isn't really an option for me.

Done and done!

I started a little later this morning than I wanted and had a few hiccups along the way but the Westy is done, in the fermenter, and chilling down from 67 to 65 for pitching.

Post-ferment gravity was 1.094 @ 5.5 gallons so I'm in the 75% efficiency ballpark.

Following SAQ's New World (dated 01/15/2012) and CSI's hopping schedule of Northern Brewer @ 60, Hallertauer @ 20, and Styrian Goldings @ 5 minutes. Mashed at 148-149 for 90 minutes and boiled for less than 90 minutes (maybe 80).

First mistake was fitting the wrong draw tube on the keggle. When running through the chiller, suction stopped far-short of the 5.5 gallon mark. WTF?

I looked inside the keggle and saw the rim draw tube instead of the center draw tube. Luckily the wort was low enough to swap the tubes. Then the fun began ... starting the gravity fed drain. Using silcone tubing, I was able squeeze it like a teet, hard and fast, to get it flowing again.

I mash in a bag (voile) and hop in a 200 micron filter so the wort is pretty clean. Lots of break material but absent of hops and grain. It all goes into the fermenter.

With my 30 plate chiller (Duda Diesel), I was able to cool the wort to 67F from tap water. I hit the wort with O2 (2 micron stone) for about a minute. The tank must be getting low as the manfold started screeching.

Sitting in a milk crate, wrapped in a black t-shirt, the carboy sits with ice packs around the perimeter to drop the internal wort temp to 65. Using a thermowell center mass, I can get there pretty quickly.

At 65 I pitch

1.015 is way too sweet. You'll probably end up around there with a 151 mash though.

Mash started at 149 but after 90 minutes, was approximately 146.

I also condensed the "leftovers" from the grain bag. About 4 quarts down to a thick slurry. It was too thick for the refractometer. I suspect that had a little to do with the efficiency.

Approximately 12 hours later, the batch is starting to build a nice pillowy krausen layer already. Temp rose from 64 to 67; the ambient house temp where the carboy is 70.

saq said:

1.015 is way too sweet. You'll probably end up around there with a 151 mash though.

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I'm betting 1.012. Like I said I need to mash a little higher than everyone else because my beer tends to attenuate more than what's normal. I've had an IPA hit 1.00 before, and it's hard to keep beers above 1.010 regardless of starting gravity. If there's problems I can drop it with some 099 if it comes down to it.

How long does WLP530 take to really start going? Albeit about 14 hours, I expected this to be volcano-like in a hurry.

It's up to 68F now ... just wondering when the stuff will start spewing.

ultravista said:

How long does WLP530 take to really start going? Albeit about 14 hours, I expected this to be volcano-like in a hurry.

It's up to 68F now ... just wondering when the stuff will start spewing.

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For me it was mellow for about 36 hours. Then, Bam!

ultravista said:

How long does WLP530 take to really start going? Albeit about 14 hours, I expected this to be volcano-like in a hurry.

It's up to 68F now ... just wondering when the stuff will start spewing.

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Ended up yielding almost 6.5 gallons from my batch so I separated out a half gallon into a 1 gallon carboy.. tested the SG tonight in the smaller carboy and the gravity has already hit 1.014 from a starting point of 1.094 and it has only been 3 days.

The larger 6 gallon carboy has been quite the show.. ended up top cropping almost 200ml of pure yeast from the blow off. I have never fermented a beer at 83F before, but damn it makes the yeast eat through those sugars.

My fermentation is near the 36 hour mark. It took off sometime late last night/earlier this morning. Checking on my baby, there was wort all over the floor. The blowoff tube kinked a bit, enough to constrict the off gasing and push the tube off the carboy cap.

Curently the internal temp is 74F from a peak of 76F. The carboy is covered with a t-shirt and elevated off the floor. The table and chair rest at 70F. Ambient temperature is not dropping, the wort mass appears to be slowing down.

Should I expect the temp to rise a bit more on it's own or is it time to apply external heat?

bottlebomber, how long was your wort @ 75? Did it slow down quickly? Did you apply external heat at any point to take it higher?

Just brewed and chilling before pitching yeast. Did the old world decoction....all went well until I dropped the cordless into the wort!!!! Hopefully that doesn't impact the beer- not worried about the phone.

ultravista said:

bottlebomber, how long was your wort @ 75? Did it slow down quickly? Did you apply external heat at any point to take it higher?

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Mine hit 80 before slowing down. It has an insulated jacket on it but otherwise no added heat. I was thinking of taking a gravity sample today and maybe putting a stick on heater for a lizard tank on the side of the carboy.

How long was it @ 80 before dropping? When was your brew date?