Hop experiment gone wrong....

So after watching the Basic Brewing video podcast about boiling double the amount of hops for 15 minutes vs. boiling a standard amount of hops for 60 minutes, I decided to give it a try. The theory here is that you can increase the hop aroma and flavor while not losing bitterness by boiling double the amount of hops the recipe requires, but only for 15 minutes. I'm afraid this experiment went horribly wrong as when I tasted a sample it was VERY sweet with little bitterness if any.

The recipe I used was one I made up that is loosely based off of a Broken Halo grain bill with the hops that I had on hand. Here's what I did:

9 lbs 2-row pale
1 lbs Crystal 10
1 lbs Crystal 30
.5 lb Carpils

4.0 oz Cascade 5.4% @ 15 min
2.0 oz Willamette 4.8% @ 5 min
1.0 oz Willamette 4.8% @ flameout

Beersmith has the IBUs at 42.3 and the OG was 1.061. The bitterness ratio was 0.683. Do you think this was just too unbalanced to begin with? How can I go about adding bitterness? The batch is already fermenting, so should I wait until it's finished and then add some hop tea, perhaps by boiling an ounce of hops in a quart of water for 60 minutes and then adding the tea to secondary? Would dry hopping help to balance out this brew?

I am open to any advice!

Was the tasting before fermentation? If so, let it be; it'll likely be fine & balance will come once the sugars ferment out.

Yes, it was before fermentation. I tasted the OG hydrometer sample before racking on top of a yeast cake.

lol... my 1075 100 IBU DIPA was sweet before fermentation...

relax and wait, it'll come around

Good to hear. Thanks!

ALL of mine are sweet before fermentation. I have no ability at all to judge how stuff is going to turn out before. It all just tastes like malt at that point to me.

AFAIK, hop bitterness is not extracted until about the 30 min mark...at 15 mins all you got was aroma...

As I know hops to work...

...if you had used 2 oz at 30 mins then I would be the same as 1 oz at 1 hour EXCEPT...you would also have a lot of hop flavor.

In other words:

1 hour = bitterness only
30 mins = very little bitterness, mostly flavor and some aroma
15 mins or less = aroma only

I've experimented with hops in that way before with a Hefe Weizen. I usually use .5 oz of 6% AA hops for 60 mins (equals 3AAs). I tried 1 oz for 30 mins and got a hoppy and flavorful HW, not the slightly bitter, mostly sweet HW I was used to.

You also have over two pounds of crystal malt. That's most likely your problem.

Yeah, just wait it out and it will be fine. All wort is sweet because the sugar hasn't been converted yet.

homebrewer_99 said:

AFAIK, hop bitterness is not extracted until about the 30 min mark...at 15 mins all you got was aroma...

As I know hops to work...

...if you had used 2 oz at 30 mins then I would be the same as 1 oz at 1 hour EXCEPT...you would also have a lot of hop flavor.

In other words:

1 hour = bitterness only
30 mins = very little bitterness, mostly flavor and some aroma
15 mins or less = aroma only

I've experimented with hops in that way before with a Hefe Weizen. I usually use .5 oz of 6% AA hops for 60 mins (equals 3AAs). I tried 1 oz for 30 mins and got a hoppy and flavorful HW, not the slightly bitter, mostly sweet HW I was used to.

Click to expand...

If that's the case then the information in this podcast was inaccurate:

http://cdn2.libsyn.com/basicbrewing...11&nva=20100206182211&t=018b6ee659148105436c6

Also, this would mean that Beersmith was inaccurate as well. I entered the hop additions at 15 min and Beersmith still gave me an IBU of 42.3. If late hop additions at 15 mins = aroma only then why would Beersmith show an IBU of 42.3?

saying no bitterness comes from anything except 30 min and more is crazy. seriously.

bitterness always comes from a hop addition, just proportionately less bitterness. and at 15 mins you tend to get some flavor and aroma but not just aroma.

I think the crystal is more a problem than being worried about your bitterness.

All hop additions add bitterness, as they all put isomerized alpha acids into solution. Do a search on late-hopped beers for more info.
It's also pretty silly to think that a sweet wort will equal a sweet beer. The yeast are going to eat an awful lot of those sugars, dude.

Richard-SSV said:

If that's the case then the information in this podcast was inaccurate:

http://cdn2.libsyn.com/basicbrewing...11&nva=20100206182211&t=018b6ee659148105436c6

Also, this would mean that Beersmith was inaccurate as well. I entered the hop additions at 15 min and Beersmith still gave me an IBU of 42.3. If late hop additions at 15 mins = aroma only then why would Beersmith show an IBU of 42.3?

Click to expand...

Where's that hop chart when you need it?

All this info is in Papazian's TCJOHB under the Hop Utilization Chart.

When I stated:

1 hour = bitterness only
30 mins = very little bitterness, mostly flavor and some aroma
15 mins or less = aroma only

Maybe using the word "only" was too strong, "mostly" is probably better.

At 1 hour the maximum bitterness that can be extracted from 1 oz of hops is 30% hop utilization. At the end of that hour all aroma and flavor from those hops have been boiled off. Any "flavor" you have is basically bitterness.

At 30 mins there may be some aroma left, but the majority of anything will be hop flavor with some bitterness...15% hop utilization

At 15 mins that bitterness drops to 7% hop utilization. Which is why you preceive more aroma from the hops than bitterness.

Again, this info is in Papazian's TCJOHB. I don't know anything about Beersmith's calculations.

Anyone else care to jump in on behalf of Beersmith?

maskednegator said:

All hop additions add bitterness, as they all put isomerized alpha acids into solution. Do a search on late-hopped beers for more info.
It's also pretty silly to think that a sweet wort will equal a sweet beer. The yeast are going to eat an awful lot of those sugars, dude.

Click to expand...

That and if he underhopped...

homebrewer_99 said:

Where's that hop chart when you need it?

All this info is in Papazian's TCJOHB under the Hop Utilization Chart.

When I stated:

1 hour = bitterness only
30 mins = very little bitterness, mostly flavor and some aroma
15 mins or less = aroma only

Maybe using the word "only" was too strong, "mostly" is probably better.

At 1 hour the maximum bitterness that can be extracted from 1 oz of hops is 30% hop utilization. At the end of that hour all aroma and flavor from those hops have been boiled off. Any "flavor" you have is basically bitterness.

At 30 mins there may be some aroma left, but the majority of anything will be hop flavor with some bitterness...15% hop utilization

At 15 mins that bitterness drops to 7% hop utilization. Which is why you preceive more aroma from the hops than bitterness.

Again, this info is in Papazian's TCJOHB. I don't know anything about Beersmith's calculations.

Anyone else care to jump in on behalf of Beersmith?

Click to expand...

The hop chart is right here:
http://www.realbeer.com/hops/research.html
where you can see that hop utilization does not increase linearly with time.
Using the Tinseth method, a 15 minute addition is roughly equivalent to half the bitterness of a 60 minute addition.

homebrewer_99 said:

That and if he underhopped...

Click to expand...

My 1.116 barleywine had 7 ounces of hops in it, and was bittered to 80 IBU. The wort was sweet enough to put on pancakes...

Just to reiterate the obvious here - pre-fermentation the beer SHOULD be sweet. If it is not, you've got a problem. Also, I'd be concerned with the 2 lbs of crystal in there - that's almost 20% of your grain bill and will certainly give you a lot of sweetness in the finished beer.

homebrewer_99 said:

At 1 hour the maximum bitterness that can be extracted from 1 oz of hops is 30% hop utilization. At the end of that hour all aroma and flavor from those hops have been boiled off. Any "flavor" you have is basically bitterness.

At 30 mins there may be some aroma left, but the majority of anything will be hop flavor with some bitterness...15% hop utilization

At 15 mins that bitterness drops to 7% hop utilization. Which is why you preceive more aroma from the hops than bitterness.

Click to expand...

The utilization really has nothing to do with flavor and/aroma. Utilization is the percent of alpha acids that isomerize and solubalize in the wort, which leads to bittering - both of these processes increase with heat and time (though not necessarily linearly). So adding more hops for less time will act the same from a bittering point of view as adding less hops for longer.

Flavor and aroma are derived from different compounds and are highly volatile - that is, they are driven out of solution as vapor as the wort boils. Aroma compounds are more easily volatilized than flavor compounds (which is exactly why they are aroma compounds, by the way). It's not that boiling for 30 minutes produces flavor compounds, it's that more than 30 minutes drives all of them out of the wort. Same thing for aroma additions at 15 (or 10 or 5 or whatever). Bittering compounds (i.e. isomerized alpha acids) are not really volatile, so bitterness and flavor/aroma rely on two different processes.

AFAIK .. hop bitterness comes from length of time in the boil. So purely from an efficiency POV, I'd rather boil less hops longer to get the IBUs.. and save some money on hops.

I would guess doubling a 15-min hop addition would give you alot more flavor & aroma, but not much more bitterness. I agree with homebrewer_99 ... keep your bittering additions at the full 60 min boil, and then transition to flavor hops at 30 or less, and armoa at 15 or less.

But in the end.. how did the beer taste? Hope it turned out good for you!
--lexuschris

LexusChris said:

AFAIK .. hop bitterness comes from length of time in the boil. So purely from an efficiency POV, I'd rather boil less hops longer to get the IBUs.. and save some money on hops.

I would guess doubling a 15-min hop addition would give you alot more flavor & aroma, but not much more bitterness. I agree with homebrewer_99 ... keep your bittering additions at the full 60 min boil, and then transition to flavor hops at 30 or less, and armoa at 15 or less.

But in the end.. how did the beer taste? Hope it turned out good for you!
--lexuschris

Click to expand...

efficiency sure, but if you are going for a certain flavor, defiantly not.

Also hop bitterness is not only from boiling. Alpha acids are bitter in themselves and will lend some bitterness to beer if never boiled and only dissolved into solution, but isomerizing the alpha acids to iso-alpha-acids makes them a) more soluble in water(120mg/L compared to 3mg/L) and b) nine times more bitter.
So, boiling hops for only 5 minutes will give you bitterness, obviously just not as much, and the time vs IBU is not linear.

All that said, I make a IPA with 65 IBU's with only 15 minute and less additions. It is plenty bitter, but because I didn't drive off near the aroma and flavor compounds you did by boiling for 60, I have an extremely floral and citrusy beer that you cannot achieve with 60 min additions. Yes it's a lot of hops, but at current prices(less than $10/lb), that's fine.

Thanks for everyone's advice and opinions; I appreciate them!. As the title said, this was an experiment. I had recently purchased a bulk order of hops from hops direct, so at $0.70 an ounce I could afford to experiment with doubling up the hops.

The batch has only been fermenting for a little over 24 hours. I will let it finish and then taste a sample. "IF" it is still too sweet my question remains..... what is the best way (if any) to go about adding bitterness? Dry hopping for longer than normal? Adding hop tea? This is really the answer I am after.

**** UPDATE ****

So last night I tapped this keg after letting it carb up. For all of you who said that the batch would be fine, that it would balance out.... you were absolutely correct!

This IPA turned out AWESOME!!!!! I left it in primary for 2 weeks and then transferred it to secondary for 5 weeks. It has the hop aroma and citrus flavor that you would expect in an IPA and although it has a bitterness to it, it's not overly bitter. It's just right! There is also a nice maltiness background flavor to it. It's not over powering as the hops really dominate this beer, but there is a nice malty after taste after you've swallowed your drink.

I will definitely be brewing this one up again.

thanks for closing the loop.

You'll get some mild isomerization at 15 minutes it will just be much less than what you would have at 60 minutes. Thats why you are overcompensating with the late additions. Also, if you are going to be adding that volume of hops I would almost prefer something like a Centennial or Amarillo or some other characteristic aroma hop as opposed to williamette which is a bit more subdued for me. Agreed with the Crystal, I would keep that to say 5-10 % of your recipe and then maybe use some wheat or vienna or other specialty grains in there.

Houblon - sorry, but that graph is garbage. Real bittering curves look like this:

david_42 said:

Real bittering curves look like this:

Click to expand...

Source please.

Yes, source please. This looks like an old school journal reference