I've gotten distracted by barley wine recipes, so this starter is going to sleep for a bit. I also have a near full keg of pale ale on tap and another in waiting. So I don't need to worry about my hoppy pipeline for a bit.
WLP644 -Brett B Trois
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I've gotten distracted by barley wine recipes, so this starter is going to sleep for a bit. I also have a near full keg of pale ale on tap and another in waiting. So I don't need to worry about my hoppy pipeline for a bit.
flyingfinbar
Well-Known Member
Has anyone had any issues fermenting this in a typical bucket? In doing research, I've found that some get overly acidic results from a long primary in a bucket due to the introduction of oxygen through the plastic. Would it be an issues if I only kept it in primary for ~5 weeks? I only own one glass carboy, and it's only a 5 gal.
I don't think you'll have a problem in that time frame. If you were leaving it in there for several months you might see some effects of increased oxygen, but I doubt you'll notice anything after just 5 weeks.
I'm thinking of using my BrettTrois,built up from ok cubes(thanks A.) to brew a Belgian IPA.
2.5gallons
2lb Munich
2lb Vienna
1lb two-row
1lb pils
a handful or two of flaked wheat
1oz of Zythos at 15,10 and 5
Is this the kind of thing that will go well with this Brett strain?
2.5gallons
2lb Munich
2lb Vienna
1lb two-row
1lb pils
a handful or two of flaked wheat
1oz of Zythos at 15,10 and 5
Is this the kind of thing that will go well with this Brett strain?
mhenry41h
Well-Known Member
I don't know what sort of age requirements have of necessary for the beers you all have brewed with this strain, but mine is taking a while to "get right.". At first (Golden Strong), mine was overwhelmingly fruity, I mean intense. Now, it's really starting to come in to it's own. I'm likely to sit on these for a considerable time.
mhenry41h
Well-Known Member
JLem said:
I completely agree with these sentiments. I wasn't happy with it being super fresh (although mine did take forever to carb). I agree that I'm developing a lot of stone fruit type esters and there is a decided tartness that was completely unexpected with a Brett strain.
highgravitybacon
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I actually found perhaps the last known vial of WLP644 in the English speaking world for sale. It is in my possession now. I know some people were unable to obtain it because of the freakishly short supply. So I'd be glad to share the wealth and culture it up and mail some out to people living in the Continential US. You'll have to cover postage. It was hard to find this stuff and I didn't think it was fair to not share it. It's 8 months until it gets released again.
I'm not going to promise sterility here, but I do promise that my kitchen is probably cleaner than your average east coast compounding pharmacy. So no meningitis in the yeast. And I'm not going to promise viability since I'm just some dude in the suburbs. But, if you're cool with that, shoot me a PM and I'll figure out if it will work.
I'm not going to promise sterility here, but I do promise that my kitchen is probably cleaner than your average east coast compounding pharmacy. So no meningitis in the yeast. And I'm not going to promise viability since I'm just some dude in the suburbs. But, if you're cool with that, shoot me a PM and I'll figure out if it will work.
flyingfinbar
Well-Known Member
othellomcbane
Well-Known Member
I think the overwhelming fruitiness is what a lot of people, including myself, liked about Trois. Even in a fairly plain beer, it produces a super intense aroma and flavor that's unlike anything else I've experience.
I think it really shines when paired with a lot of hops, though... the bitterness helps balance all that fruitiness. I'm sure you could use in in tangent with some other Brett strains to cut down on the fruitiness for a Golden Strong, too.
mhenry41h
Well-Known Member
It's definitely not a bad thing, but I have a feeling that people who don't know the unique ester profile of this Brett will be making something different than what they expect if "traditional Brett" flavors are what they were expecting. At first I was really reminded of Victory's Golden Monkey (note: brewers who haven't used your vial yet - I did a mixed fermentation with a Belgian Sacc strain). It's changing, for the better in my mind, with time. It's been in the bottle 2 months.
Case in point - my 100% Brett beer that I entered into competition. Though it actually landed a silver medal (so I'm not really complaining) the judges comments included things like "not enough Brett character", "looking for more Brett sourness", "nice beer, but the Brett is undetectable". I was disappointed by the lack of understanding of what to expect...or maybe the judges prefer "traditional" Brett flavors.
othellomcbane
Well-Known Member
I think this is a running problem that 100% Brett beers face many people, even accomplished brewers, just don't know what to expect. They think that because it's "100%" that means there's going to be a super intense funk character and they think it's a flaw of the beer when it's not.
I'm not BJCP certified myself, so I don't know what the training is like, but it seems like it might not be keeping pace with some of these new experimental styles that are just gaining traction.
othellomcbane
Well-Known Member
Been drinking my second Trois beer for a few weeks now, got a write-up posted on my blog. I'm pretty surprised how different it came out compared to my first Trois beer, which was a session / white IPA. With all the hops in that one, the flavors focused on the big tropical / guava / mango notes that I expected. Second batch has that too, but a whole other range of flavors as well.
My second Trois beer has a pretty simple recipe and low-hopping, for a focus on the yeast, and its character leans a bit more toward a tart-berry thing. It's very interesting and very enjoyable. The tropical notes are definitely still there, but I think the hops really helped to bring those out in the first beer. Also, this second batch ended up with some extra head space in the carboy and a week longer of aging, so I think it developed more acidity. That extra little bit of sourness enhances the "tart berry" character. And unless I'm just imagining that, Trois seemed to develop tartness a lot faster than the other Brett strains I've used in 100% Brett fermentations.
So happy Trois is going to be year-round next year. Such a great yeast.
My second Trois beer has a pretty simple recipe and low-hopping, for a focus on the yeast, and its character leans a bit more toward a tart-berry thing. It's very interesting and very enjoyable. The tropical notes are definitely still there, but I think the hops really helped to bring those out in the first beer. Also, this second batch ended up with some extra head space in the carboy and a week longer of aging, so I think it developed more acidity. That extra little bit of sourness enhances the "tart berry" character. And unless I'm just imagining that, Trois seemed to develop tartness a lot faster than the other Brett strains I've used in 100% Brett fermentations.
So happy Trois is going to be year-round next year. Such a great yeast.
highgravitybacon
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barrooze said:I hadn't heard that! Great news! I can't wait to get it into my arsenal!
Yes, to be released mid January per email I got from White Labs.
monkeybox
Well-Known Member
I have some cultured WLP644 (Thanks highgravitybacon!) and am deciding on a WLP644 recipe right now. I was planning on something like your White IPA, but the recipe is a bit complex for my liking. I prefer to keep things down to a couple grains and a couple hops, but I'm willing to do more if it's a really great beer.
Which of your recipes did you like better? Any changes you'd suggest to either recipe?
Anybody else have recipes for 100% WLP644 that they think are fantastic?
othellomcbane
Well-Known Member
Not sure if you meant the other one rather than the White IPA. The White IPA was only three malts, which I wouldn't consider particularly complex. I think the main trick with formulating the recipe is getting some body and mouthfeel into the beer, as 100% Brett beers tend to be thin and a bit watery. With the white IPA, you could probably just do two grains, a base malt and somewhere around 30% wheat. I think a bit of carapils or C20 helps too, but I guess it's not crucial. I would shoot for at least 5% ABV too. For the hop bill, you could go simpler. Really, any good IPA hop bill should work, since the yeast blends in with the hop aroma so thoroughly. Northwest hops or New Zeland hops should work best.
I guess if I had to pick a favorite, I prefer the white IPA... I think the extra hops really balance the fruity sweetness Trois creates. The "Belgian pale ale" version was very good too, though, so it really depends what you're looking for, hoppy or simpler and sweet. If you wanted to simplify that recipe, you could cut the Munich. The bit of honey malt obviously added to the sweetness there, and I think helped accent the "berry" like flavors, so you could adjust that to your preferences.
Hope that helps!
monkeybox - I really liked my ESBrett I did a while ago. It was the second runnings from a barley wine, but is basically an ESB base. As othellomcbane discussed, the Brett can produce a thinning of the mouthfeel so I think some crystal malts really help. Plus I have found that the more complex sugars in your wort the more intense and fruit forward notes are produced by Brett Drie.
I happen to really like Nelson hops and they reinforce the flavors produced by the yeast. I think anything tropical goes nicely.
Here is my right up - http://jeffreycrane.blogspot.com/2012/05/brett-series-extra-special-bretter.html
And tasting notes - http://jeffreycrane.blogspot.com/2012/05/homebrew-tasting-100-brett-drie-100.html
I happen to really like Nelson hops and they reinforce the flavors produced by the yeast. I think anything tropical goes nicely.
Here is my right up - http://jeffreycrane.blogspot.com/2012/05/brett-series-extra-special-bretter.html
And tasting notes - http://jeffreycrane.blogspot.com/2012/05/homebrew-tasting-100-brett-drie-100.html
It's hard to find good judges. It's especially hard to find good judges for every competition.
That being said, how many people even know of this strain of yeast? And how many of those people are judging in comps? I wish there was a better way of educating the BJCP, but with it being a volunteer based organization, it's kind of hard.
Apparently the BJCP is considering adding some sort of American Sours category, eventually. I encouraged them to add a 100% Brett style as part of it, with clear guidelines of what sort of flavors to expect.
Lots of great information in this thread!
I contacted Whitelabs for some information on wlp644 yesterday. According to John at whitelabs wlp644 is packaged with 50-80 Million cells/ml. Also, that the production date is 4 months prior to the expiration date, just like their standard yeasts.
I recently got gifted two vials that expired in the middle of November that I'm hoping to propagate up to a 5.5g 100% Brett pitch. It's my understanding that a Brett starter will nearly triple it's cell count in 7-8 days. Is that a fair guestament?
It would be great to hear from someone with experience propagating this yeast.
I contacted Whitelabs for some information on wlp644 yesterday. According to John at whitelabs wlp644 is packaged with 50-80 Million cells/ml. Also, that the production date is 4 months prior to the expiration date, just like their standard yeasts.
I recently got gifted two vials that expired in the middle of November that I'm hoping to propagate up to a 5.5g 100% Brett pitch. It's my understanding that a Brett starter will nearly triple it's cell count in 7-8 days. Is that a fair guestament?
It would be great to hear from someone with experience propagating this yeast.
WilliamWS
Well-Known Member
When making a starter for my RIS that I did a month ago I feel like the 644 worked pretty fast. I left it on the stir plate longer than I normally would for sacc but not 7-8 days, probably more like four days each time I stepped it up.
I never did a cell count but after stepping it up a couple of times I had what seemed to be plenty of yeast for 5gal of 1.094 wort. Fermentation was going crazy within a few hours, it dropped my gravity by 60 points in two days. After a week my RIS was down to 1.027 and over the course of the following 10 days it went to 1.023. It's been stable there for a couple of weeks so I'll probably bottle next week and give it a few months.
I never did a cell count but after stepping it up a couple of times I had what seemed to be plenty of yeast for 5gal of 1.094 wort. Fermentation was going crazy within a few hours, it dropped my gravity by 60 points in two days. After a week my RIS was down to 1.027 and over the course of the following 10 days it went to 1.023. It's been stable there for a couple of weeks so I'll probably bottle next week and give it a few months.
bogwart
Member
You should wait and check the gravity over the course of a few weeks. Mine went from a 1.010 after around four weeks to a 1.006 at six weeks. It stabilized there and I bottled it at eight weeks. So, give it some more time.
Coff
Well-Known Member
Has any experienced long bottle conditioning times with this strain? Ive had my Petite Saison in bottles for 7 weeks now and the beer is low on carb and no tastes a bit sweet, almost under attenuated which I am assuming is the rest of the priming solution bc it was bone dry going into the bottles.
I will admit however, it is a consistent 61f in my cellar atm which i know is a bit cool for bottle conditioning so I expected it to take a little longer but I thought it would be done by now. I grabbed a 6 pack and stuck it in the closet on my 3rd floor which is 72f so I'll give that a week or 2 and check it out.
I will admit however, it is a consistent 61f in my cellar atm which i know is a bit cool for bottle conditioning so I expected it to take a little longer but I thought it would be done by now. I grabbed a 6 pack and stuck it in the closet on my 3rd floor which is 72f so I'll give that a week or 2 and check it out.
highgravitybacon
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No, in fact I'm thinking I have a series of bottle IEDs waiting. I had a berliner weisse I bottled at 1.004 with some brett in half and no brett in the other half. I drank one of each tonight. The non brett was still a little undercarbed, and kind of sweet. No issues with it, except not very sour. They were about 2 weeks in the bottle sitting on a warm blanket at about 80F.
The brett beer, another story. I knew straight away I had issues when, upon opening, it sounded like someone disconnecting a train car. Massive gusher. Like about a minute. The beer was very mildly funky dry as a bone. So dry the hydrometer just sank right to the bottom of the test cylinder because I didn't put enough sample in. Both were carbed to 3.7 vol with table sugar. People are always saying "Oh, brett produces half the co2 as regular yeast." Bull****. The only difference in the two bottles was the presence of brett. So it's obviously the brett doing it.
WilliamWS
Well-Known Member
If you packaged in Belgian style bottles or something similar then you're definitely fine.
Anything over 3.25-3.5 makes me nervous in regular bottles, though. IIR, regular bottles max out around 4.5 under ideal conditions but I think we've all seen bottles with flaws and I've heard of cases where they've supposedly gone off under 4.
Anything over 3.25-3.5 makes me nervous in regular bottles, though. IIR, regular bottles max out around 4.5 under ideal conditions but I think we've all seen bottles with flaws and I've heard of cases where they've supposedly gone off under 4.
loctones
Well-Known Member
Does anyone have any experience using this in secondary? I intended to do an all-brett beer with this, but life got in the way. So, I pitched the vial into a batch of old ale that I've been aging. It's coming up on 5 months now. I took a sample a couple of months ago. The brett definitely did it's thing on attenuation, but not much in the flavor department. The added alcohol from the secondary fermentation made it taste harsh, actually. It definitely needed more time. I'm trying to let it get to 6 months before I take another sample.
dstar26t
If it's worth doing, it's worth overdoing
Go back to post #81 in this thread for cell counts. Some additional info I'll add that may help you is that on 10/31, I took 2 vials dated November and made a 1.040 240mL starter. It grew up to 104 Billion cells.
I've talked with John at White Labs too and I believe he doesn't have the correct information. He told me the same thing about cell count and expiration date for Brett well over a year ago. I believe they put a 6 month date on their Brett vials versus the standard 4 month. I had a vial of their WLP650 last year that would have been made 1 month in the future using the 4 month rule. All the Brett Trois that was produced this year was made in May which is obviously 6 months from the November date that is on all the vials I've seen, some of which I bought in May.
Most people don't go over 3 volumes in standard bottles. It also differs a bit by brand, you can get a sense by weighing your different bottles and doing a weight to volume ratio. If you are reusing commercial bottles the maximum pressure will decrease after every use from the stress it goes through (and your new homebrew bottles for that matter).
highgravitybacon
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I have done 3.5 vol, 3.7 vol intentionally and 4 vol by accident before without any problems. These are in mish mash brands of bottles. All reused commercial ones.
dstar26t
If it's worth doing, it's worth overdoing
Good to know, sounds like they did, thanks for posting. I'd love to get out to their tasting room...jealous.
Last weekend I finally got around to brewing my beer. It is basically a re-brew of the first brett Countdown Blond I did in the summer. This time I added rye for a more substantial mouthfeel, added crystal malts for a bit of sweetness, and I will avoid the lacto which thinned it out way too much.
30% Pils (4lbs)
22.5% Vienna (3lbs)
15% Malted Wheat (2lbs)
7.5% Munich (1lb)
7.5% Malted Rye (1lb)
7.5% Rolled Oats (1lb)
9% Crystal 55 and Honey Malt, because I had a little of each left over from other beers.
Hops are an equal parts blend of Pacific Jade/Cascade/Amarillo (last time was Pacific Jade bittern and flavor, Amarillo late addition, and Cascade dry hop). Wanted to up the hop flavor this time. Still kept bitterness low (29IBU), since I also apricots which add to the bitterness. All late additions.
45g (15g each) @ 15 minutes
45g flameout
45g dry hop - yet to be done, closer to serving time.
OG was 1.046 (horrid efficiency). I just pulled the starter from the fridge from a few weeks earlier and pitched it without waking it up. Results showed. After a week it was only down to 1.020. Nothing near the fast and furious fermentation from my prior 2 batches where I had a heartier and more active pitch. I needed to free up the primary (my kettle), so I kegged it. I sliced up 500g of dried apricots and put in hop sacks. And I connected a blow-off tube to the gas-out post.
I used dried apricots this time, because I ended up with a harsh astringency in the first batch which I'm guessing was from the apricot and mango pits and skins.
There is still quite active fermentation based on the blow-off activity. I'll let that simmer a bit, then remove the blow-off tube and let it build some pressure on its own. I fly back to the States for the holidays, so this one will sit until next year.
Based on the taste at racking, I really like the hop blend with this grist. It had a real spiciness (maybe accentuated by the rye) along with the fruit. Looking forward to this one.
I did mine
10 litres
2lbs each of munich,vienna and pale
250gr flaked wheat 200gr crystal wheat and 50 gr carafa 3
Mashed at 69c for an hour.
Hopped with an oz of Zythos at 15,10 and 5.
Pitched at 8 in the morning ant wen out. Came back 30 hours later to find the krausen subsided and my house taken over by ripe fruit hoppy maltyness. I cant wait to drink it.
10 litres
2lbs each of munich,vienna and pale
250gr flaked wheat 200gr crystal wheat and 50 gr carafa 3
Mashed at 69c for an hour.
Hopped with an oz of Zythos at 15,10 and 5.
Pitched at 8 in the morning ant wen out. Came back 30 hours later to find the krausen subsided and my house taken over by ripe fruit hoppy maltyness. I cant wait to drink it.
flyingfinbar
Well-Known Member
badlee said:I did mine
10 litres
2lbs each of munich,vienna and pale
250gr flaked wheat 200gr crystal wheat and 50 gr carafa 3
Mashed at 69c for an hour.
Hopped with an oz of Zythos at 15,10 and 5.
Pitched at 8 in the morning ant wen out. Came back 30 hours later to find the krausen subsided and my house taken over by ripe fruit hoppy maltyness. I cant wait to drink it.
It was a stinky one, wasn't it? Not a bad stinky, but definitely my most aromatic fermentation yet.
After having this in bottles for almost two months, I'm not impressed with it in a low gravity saison wort. It's plain tasting and lacks complexity. Very simple tasting. It's not bad by any means it's just not what I expect in my 10 plato saison wort.
dstar26t
If it's worth doing, it's worth overdoing
A buddy of mine brewed a Saison with 3711 and we bottled it with Trois at 1 million cells/mL. I'm curious to see what it does in a few months. He gave me a bottle and I doubt he will have the will power to save any so I'll age it for him.
I'm doing an IPA next weekend fermented with Trois. Lots of protein in the recipe and lots of Citra, Amarillo and Centennial. I'd really like to try Nelson Sauvin with Trois, seems like they'd go well together. I have a lot of the 2011 harvest hops to use up still though.
Over Christmas, I bottled a year old Spelt Lambic (ECY20), Kriek, Brett B+C+L Pale Ale and a ECY04 Pale Ale, all bottle primed with Trois. Very excited to try all of them!
Nate
I'm doing an IPA next weekend fermented with Trois. Lots of protein in the recipe and lots of Citra, Amarillo and Centennial. I'd really like to try Nelson Sauvin with Trois, seems like they'd go well together. I have a lot of the 2011 harvest hops to use up still though.
Over Christmas, I bottled a year old Spelt Lambic (ECY20), Kriek, Brett B+C+L Pale Ale and a ECY04 Pale Ale, all bottle primed with Trois. Very excited to try all of them!
Nate
