How do you tell a guy his beer SUCKS

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Grinder12000

Grinder12000

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A guy gives you three homebrew's.

first one taste like syrup, very little hops all malty and buttery and I bet it was in the primary 3 days and bottled 7 days after that. (like the kit instructions from Wind and Hops Shop state.

second one was just bad - vinegar with a LOT of head (nice lace though LOL)

third one is an IPA - have not tasted it yet.

So now I have to give the bottles back and he will want my critique.
 
You know, that's really hard. He's sharing homebrew with you, and he must think it's pretty good, or he wouldn't share it. Especially if you're a new-ish brewer, that puts you in a bad spot. I mean, you have to be honest. But, you don't want him to get the attitude, "Oh, yeah, well, let's see you do better."

I guess I would say that the first beer was not to my taste- that I don't really care for super malty/sweet beers. (What style was it? Maybe it's not too bad, according to the style). Now, it it's a cream ale, that's really a problem!

I would say that something "happened" to the second bottle. Sounds like a bit of infection, so you really can't judge the actual beer.

(Can you tell I've had a few bad homebrews in my time?)

I'd try the third ASAP, because I love IPAs, and maybe that one is a good one.
 
Be nice, be honest, but most importantly give feedback on how to make it better next time. And send him here if you can't convince him.
 
I appreciate honest criticism over disingenuous praise any day of the week, and one would hope that any brewer who's trying to become a better brewer would think the same way. If this guy can't take your honest opinion as constructive criticism and not an insult, then it's not worth your time to discuss his beer in the first place. The only way to tell is to be honest and see how he responds.

I think one good thing to do is not to just say "this beer was syrupy, I don't like it". Give him your honest tasting notes, being sure to point out any and all good things about the beer, along with the bad. Then, offer up your suggestions on how to fix the problems with the beers. This will show him that you actually care about helping him become a better brewer, and aren't just rippin' on his brews.
 
+1 for honesty, with any complements you can muster up sprinkled in. "I thought of a couple things to help you dial in your process..."

Also, maybe share a bottle or two of your better beer with him so he knows what he could be making.
 
And I think it's important to differentiate what's "bad" from what "you don't like".

As others have mentioned, maybe the sweet maltiness of the first brew was appropriate for the style, but just too much for you? (though it sounds like there's a diacetyl problem -- you can help with that). And maybe the second was supposed to be some kind of sour beer?
 
Obviously you don't want to come out and say "Dude, your beers suck." I'm guessing he's fairly new to brewing and you certainly don't want to make him doubt his abilities to brew beer, but at the same time you need to provide somewhat honest feedback to help him make better beer.

When I'm in that situation I'll say things like "I remember my extract batches having similar tastes, did you add all of the extract at the beginning of the boil or did you add it towards the end?" Statements like that remind them that you were once a rookie brewer putting out beer that wasn't so great and it also brings some of the process into question which allows you to make recommendations and ask questions.

Instead of saying "This is way too malty and sweet" say something like "This could use more hops". Instead of saying "This tastes like Satan's anus" say "How well did you clean the bottles that you used for this batch?" (Both of which I've used on new brewers).
 
ohiobrewtus said:
Instead of saying "This tastes like Satan's anus" say "How well did you clean the bottles that you used for this batch?"
Click to expand...

Well, sometimes, there's no way to get around just calling it what it is. I guess you could just say "hmm, did you actually add Satan's Anus extract, or is that something else I detect...?"
 
One of the problems is that "I" am new but I can guarantee I know more about the process then he does.

I would bet his research has totaled reading the instructions. While I have inhaled books, websites and my thought process has been dominated with Homebrew!

So while I can comment on his beer he has more experience.

I'll asked him some questions and then offer suggestions in a "question-like" manner.
 
Get out the BJCP score sheet and rip into it. Constructive criticizm and a score of 18 coupled with a discussion of his brewing process might help you zero in on the problem with his process and help him become a better brewer.
 
First off, I would get an idea of what the brewer was going for be it stylistic or creative and evaluate the beer for what the brewer was attempting.

Be honest but not brutal.
 
Do you have a beer to share?
Maybe that will soften the blow? If you give them a beer that is pretty good and they like it, then most of your discussion can be about telling them how to brew it, rather then telling them the beers they gave you just suck.
Honesty is best, but how that honesty is delivered determines how well it is received.
If you say "you beers suck, go away" then it won't do much. If you say "try this one", and they like it, then you can give them advice, and most likely you won't even need to mention how bad theirs was in comparison. They will know, and will want to hear your advice on making the brew you just gave them.
 
When you share, maybe offer to take some comments or criticisms from him/her as well. Grade each others beers to keep the criticisms balanced.

You might be able to teach the techniques of properly evaluating a beer so that he/she can do the same to their own and not be afraid to ask others form comments.
 
+1 to paul. get him drunk first before you tell him it sucks.:D JK. No but really sit down with a couple of yours, a couple of his and maybe a couple good micros. then have a tasting. that way he can critique his own beer and it will help him without discouraging or demeaning him. use the score cards also and he will understand style better.
 
+1 on the honesty...I'm fairly new to brewing but I have a few guys that have given less than stellar reviews on my beer. Rather than being pissed they didn't like them, I asked questions about what it was they were tasting that they didn't like. And their answers have helped me make better beer. In addition, when they have had beers of mine then said "wow, that's a good beer", I can actually feel proud of my work. Sometimes, people just say what sounds nice...but I don't know if I can really trust that they are enjoying it.

If it were me, I'd ask a lot of questions:

How long did you ferment?
Did you use a secondary?
What recipe did you use?
What do you use for a sanitizer?
Did you use a wort chiller?
What temperature did you ferment at?

The questions would be a good way to give him feedback on possibly bad brewing practices, and would help him realize you're trying to help, not just criticize.
 
you never know, Maybe he knows there bad, and is looking to see if you will give honest feedback of his brews in the future.
One of my first brew that I kegged got an infection, I kept it around as a honesty tester. If you said you liked it you got more of the same, If you were honest w/ me you got the good stuff. $hitty? Well maybe..... But I knew who was honest and who was blowing smoke up my kilt.
Just a thought.
JJ
 
Its not hard... its only three words! "Your beer sucks!" HAHAH!

Seriously, You don't have to be rude or think he will be mad if you tell him you don't like the beer. Ya know there's some brew styles I flat out dislike, so if its something I'm not real familiar and I don't taste any obvious stuff I would keep quiet. Maybe I would just say, "I'm not a big fan of hefes to begin with" or something along those lines. I mean if its a big belgian beer or an IPA and it tastes like buttered popcorn with a side of apples and cardboard I'm sure I would think of a few topics to discuss that will help improve the beer.
 
Grinder12000 said:
One of the problems is that "I" am new but I can guarantee I know more about the process then he does.

I would bet his research has totaled reading the instructions. While I have inhaled books, websites and my thought process has been dominated with Homebrew!

So while I can comment on his beer he has more experience.

I'll asked him some questions and then offer suggestions in a "question-like" manner.
Click to expand...

Why? Screw beating around the bush and question-answer dancing....offer up an honest and fair evaluation of the flaws/faults & strong points that you have noticed with out the subjective "sucking" part.
 
Whenever I offer my Homebrew, I always ask for an honest answer. I want the criticism to help me get better. Perhaps my tastes aren't the same as someone else's. I need to know how others percieve the flavor.

Maybe he doesn't know what Homebrew SHOULD taste like. Maybe he tasted it and thought, "Well, I dont' care for it, but since I don't know what Homebrew is supposed to taste like, I'll ask some others to try it and tell me what they think!"

Also, make sure you know what style they were tryign to achieve and work from there with the discussion. I gave a Brown Ale, a Pale Ale, and a Wit to a lady at work, they didn't care for the Brown, liked the Wit ok, and haven't tried the Pale yet. She likes darker beers, but apparently not THAT dark! LOL!
 
Honesty is the best policy, but never give criticism without recommendations...;)

Think about it for a moment...OK, moment's over...there are even commercial brews that some of us don't like, but that doesn't make them bad beers. Just not your, er, cup of tea, so to speak.

It's no use sugar coating a bad beer if you can't explain what's wrong with it or how to improve it.:D
 
+1 - honest feedback.

If I ask for feedback - I want real feedback. Anything else is counter-productive. It is the feedback that makes a better brewer.
 
Use the **** sandwich technique. Start with something positive, hit him with the negative, then end on a positive note. To paraphrase:

"Nice haircut, you suck, great shoes."
 
Bike N Brew said:
And I think it's important to differentiate what's "bad" from what "you don't like".
Click to expand...

that is so true. Case and point, we were at the Dogfish Head brewery this weekend, and I skipped the first two samples, because I know I don't like them. Are they bad, NOPE, but it's just not what I'm into...and I had to explain it that to one of the guests there. He said why are you waiting for the 60min to come out...and I told him and he then realized what I was getting at.

Not liking something is perfectly ok, but when it's bad, you know when something is bad.
 
Excellent point on the difference between "bad" and "I don't like this."

I generally would not offer up my beers in that way (though I take them to group tastings), so I'm not sure what I would want to hear if I did. I would probably not really want honest feedback, unless I asked some more experienced brewer to help me diagnose a problem (and would say so). I would never offer something that I did not think was unquestionably delicious, so I would not want to hear that someone thought they sucked. It would be like that Monty Python routine where the soldier shows a picture of his wife to another soldier, who responds by talking about how ugly she is...not what he wanted to hear.

However, regardless of what I think of someone's beer that is offered to me or how much I struggled to choke down a bad one, I ALWAYS thank the person who brought it and tell him or her that I enjoyed it (true regardless of how it tastes). I like only a few styles (IPAs, American Ales, in that vein), so a great stout or porter is wasted on me.
 
SteveM said:
I would probably not really want honest feedback, unless I asked some more experienced brewer to help me diagnose a problem (and would say so). I would never offer something that I did not think was unquestionably delicious, so I would not want to hear that someone thought they sucked. It would be like that Monty Python routine where the soldier shows a picture of his wife to another soldier, who responds by talking about how ugly she is...not what he wanted to hear.

However, regardless of what I think of someone's beer that is offered to me or how much I struggled to choke down a bad one, I ALWAYS thank the person who brought it and tell him or her that I enjoyed it (true regardless of how it tastes). I like only a few styles (IPAs, American Ales, in that vein), so a great stout or porter is wasted on me.
Click to expand...

Man, I would be so pissed if someone wasn't honest about my beer. I want to know what is right and what is wrong with the beer I've made. I don't make beer so people will be nice to me. I make it because I love the craft and those honest notes are great feedback. I have entered a few competitions and I love getting back a score sheet that tells me what they honestly thought of my beer. That way I can brew it better next time and I can find the flaws in my system.

I just can't lie to people like that. It hurts me to do so.
 
My first batch I screwed up and realized I screwed it up after making it, but gave a brewing friend a bottle to try and asked for his comments. When he returned it, he was trying to be nice and said it wasn't that bad, blah blah blah. I told him he was full of sh%t and it sucked. I then proceeded to dump it all. If I ask somebody's opinion, I want a honest answer so I can progress to a better brewer. Being nice is...umm nice. But it doesn't help anybody.
 
Every time I give out one of my beers I expect criticism. I preface giving people my beers with a small explanation of what kind of style it is, and also saying "If you tell me you like this, and you're lying, I will be forcing you to drink more of it" :D I love getting honest, real critiquing of my beers, even if it's from uneducated rubes, like the guy who said my IPA was too 'stout' for his liking.
 
You've got to be honest and objective. You can't start with "dude, this sucks!" or you're going to piss him off and he's probably not going to listen to you. Tell him that the first beer is pretty sweet, sweeter than you usually like your beers, and that you wonder if maybe it's underattenuated. Then, you can start talking about things like proper time in the fermenter, recipe formulation, etc. The second one, just "seems like there might be a bit of an off-flavor, it seems to be pretty sour, almost like you've got an acerbacteria (sp?) infection." As long as you're not being too personal and just focusing on the objective facts, then you should be able to give this guy the feedback he needs.
 
If it were me I would welcome honest feedback and suggestions to make it better. I have had some less then stellar batches that I took to the brew club for a tasting just so I can get some feedback and to see how I can improve.
 
I would be honest with him and let him know your findings. You can not improve anything if you don't know what is wrong.

Grinder12000 said:
A guy gives you three homebrew's.

first one taste like syrup, very little hops all malty and buttery and I bet it was in the primary 3 days and bottled 7 days after that. (like the kit instructions from Wind and Hops Shop state.

second one was just bad - vinegar with a LOT of head (nice lace though LOL)

third one is an IPA - have not tasted it yet.

So now I have to give the bottles back and he will want my critique.
Click to expand...
 
carnevoodoo said:
I just can't lie to people like that. It hurts me to do so.
Click to expand...

Be careful about tossing out accusations that I am a liar. Did I say I would lie to someone? Read what I said. If someone offers me a beer, I thank them and tell them I enjoyed it, even if it is bad. I am grateful that someone was willing to share a beer and a beer has to be awful bad before I will not enjoy drinking it in the company of fellow brewers.

If someone asks me to try a beer that they think is not good, and help them diagnose the problem, I will not BS them. If someone offers me a beer to simply drink and enjoy, I will drink and enjoy, and nothing more. The latter case sounds like the situation in the first post.
 
my first few batches I thought were good and gave them to people to try, they always said they were good. Looking back at it I know they were awful.

Tell him, It will do him a favor!!!
 
snazzy said:
my first few batches I thought were good and gave them to people to try, they always said they were good. Looking back at it I know they were awful.

Tell him, It will do him a favor!!!
Click to expand...

He asked what we would do. That's what I would do. Others will do differently. I was not the one asking for suggestions, nor am I looking for any.
 
Give him helpful suggestions but don't totally insult his beer as he likely spent a good amount of time making it.

Maybe invite him to brew with you sometime or vice versa?
 
EvilTOJ said:
Every time I give out one of my beers I expect criticism. I preface giving people my beers with a small explanation of what kind of style it is, and also saying "If you tell me you like this, and you're lying, I will be forcing you to drink more of it" :D I love getting honest, real critiquing of my beers, even if it's from uneducated rubes, like the guy who said my IPA was too 'stout' for his liking.
Click to expand...

Ditto. I really want the truth so I can improve. I hate it when someone says they like it and then instead of asking for another gets a BMC outta the fridge.
 

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