naiek
Well-Known Member
Is there a reason for it to be raw other than strict adherence to a rule that, in this case, serves no purpose?
Raw Vegan brewing.
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CGVT
Senior Member
I was going to brew a batch of this, but I am not sure whether to add the vegans to the mash, boil or secondary?
Even though when it's done it will be bitter, insufferable, and of course, morally superior in every sense and it will most likely be terrible, it won't matter because it will be self conscious and aware
I think when it's done I'll name it Sanctimonious Ale...
Even though when it's done it will be bitter, insufferable, and of course, morally superior in every sense and it will most likely be terrible, it won't matter because it will be self conscious and aware
I think when it's done I'll name it Sanctimonious Ale...
naiek
Well-Known Member
I was going to brew a batch of this, but I am not sure whether to add the vegans to the mash, boil or secondary?
Even though when it's done it will be bitter, insufferable, and of course, morally superior in every sense and it will most likely be terrible, it won't matter because it will be self conscious and aware
I think when it's done I'll name it Sanctimonious Ale...
I would recommend a secondary in this case, don't want your beer sitting on those vegans for too long, never know the off-flavors you will get
The irony in these kinds of threads is always pretty darn thick. The general theme here seems to be how judgmental vegans are, and yet the handful of actual vegans present (which doesn't include me) appear to be the only ones not passing judgment on anyone.
bottlebomber
Well-Known Member
MalFet said:The irony in these kinds of threads is always pretty darn thick. The general theme here seems to be how judgmental vegans are, and yet the handful of actual vegans present (which doesn't include me) appear to be the only ones not passing judgment on anyone.
It's ok... Oftentimes the meat eaters that are really anti vegan/vegetarian are typically obese. In fact I've made some interesting graphs that show that the fatter they are, the more they hate vegans/vegetarians. It's empirical now.
The irony in these kinds of threads is always pretty darn thick. The general theme here seems to be how judgmental vegans are, and yet the handful of actual vegans present (which doesn't include me) appear to be the only ones not passing judgment on anyone.
I agree. I'm surprised and disappointed in the responses. I do not use finings like gelatin in my beer, as that is a product from a cow. But I don't yammer at those of you who do. I don't call you weirdos for putting meat byproducts in your beer.
People have spiritual, dietary, and moral beliefs. They may not be the same as yours, but that doesn't make them any less valid than yours.
I will tell you that as a group, beer drinking middle aged carnivores are about the fattest and unhealthiest people I know. I don't go around calling them all names, and pointing a finger at them although I am slender and healthy.
It's a slippery slope when we try to depersonalize people into "vegans", "vegetarians", "carnivores", etc.
Many people eat mindlessly, going through a McDonald's drive through. A few health conscious individuals eat with forethought and deliberation. Don't knock it until you've tried it.
Waynep005
Well-Known Member
I do not find the Vegan aspect strange at all. While I am not nor can I imagine I ever will be a vegan I get why some people choose to be a Vegan. I do not get the raw food thing at all. While some foods are great raw some are not only not tasty but are not edible untill cooked. This includes some great vegan friendly foods.
bottlebomber
Well-Known Member
Raw food is not typically something that people do all the time. It is usually done for a specified period of time as part of a cleanse. So for a month you do raw foods... Then you go back to eating what you normally would. When my wife does this she has so much energy during and for weeks after that it's undeniable for me that it is healthy, but I'm not sure if it's good to do in the long term.
I still tell people I am veg because for most purposes I am. I don't want to get invited over for dinner and have to contend with a hamburger casserole or something because there's no way I would ever eat anything like that. I have never eaten a hamburger, and never will unless survival dictates that I must. What's funny is coming from a vegetarian background to eating meat gives me a fresh outlook on the meat that I do eat. For example, I had an opportunity to eat sea urchin recently. All the carnivores but 1 or 2 couldn't stand the idea, but I had seconds. Dog doesn't sound bad either. How is it different from another flesh? Malfet ate it. Was it a red meat?
I agree completely Yooper.. I have always been a vegetarian and proud of it. However over the last 2 years I have been starting to eat a little meat. So now it's not so easy to classify my diet - I will do some very fresh seafood, or on a whim I may have some other type of meat but in very small quantities. I had some venison jerky the other day someone offered me.Yooper said:
I still tell people I am veg because for most purposes I am. I don't want to get invited over for dinner and have to contend with a hamburger casserole or something because there's no way I would ever eat anything like that. I have never eaten a hamburger, and never will unless survival dictates that I must. What's funny is coming from a vegetarian background to eating meat gives me a fresh outlook on the meat that I do eat. For example, I had an opportunity to eat sea urchin recently. All the carnivores but 1 or 2 couldn't stand the idea, but I had seconds. Dog doesn't sound bad either. How is it different from another flesh? Malfet ate it. Was it a red meat?
CGVT
Senior Member
It's ok... Oftentimes the meat eaters that are really anti vegan/vegetarian are typically obese. In fact I've made some interesting graphs that show that the fatter they are, the more they hate vegans/vegetarians. It's empirical now.
Interesting, I usually see those that subscribe to the food pyramid and eat a lot of grain, corn and carbs tend to be fat. The meat eaters are usually much more healthy.
BTW, not sure who on here is anti vegan/vegetarian. I tend to dislike humorless, sanctimonious *****es regardless of what they like to eat.
Now if you will excuse me, after I finish my veal, I have baby seals to club and carbon fuels to burn...
Whattawort
Well-Known Member
I didn't read through all 90 posts so forgive me if this is embedded in here somewhere. Have any of you run into the hard-core paleo dieters? My bro does it and it's like a religion to him. Hey, if he feels better because of it, great. My issue is when I have to endure his sermons on why it's such the better lifestyle than the way I eat and how I choose to live. Not everyone can hit a crossfit box 3-4 times a week or convince their family to fairly drastically change their diet. Besides, I HATE sorghum based beers.
Yes, that's just one person and purely anecdotal. I just had to get that off my chest and this seemed like an appropriate place to do it. My brother doesn't seem to get that I don't want to hear it anymore even after I've told him as much. And I really don't want to spend another half a day brewing beer that I don't like to drink only to get a complaint or too from him after it's gone. Ah family...the ties that bind and gag.
Yes, that's just one person and purely anecdotal. I just had to get that off my chest and this seemed like an appropriate place to do it. My brother doesn't seem to get that I don't want to hear it anymore even after I've told him as much. And I really don't want to spend another half a day brewing beer that I don't like to drink only to get a complaint or too from him after it's gone. Ah family...the ties that bind and gag.
bottlebomber
Well-Known Member
CGVT said:Interesting, I usually see those that subscribe to the food pyramid and eat a lot of grain, corn and carbs tend to be fat. The meat eaters are usually much more healthy.
BTW, not sure who on here is anti vegan/vegetarian. I tend to dislike humorless, sanctimonious *****es regardless of what they like to eat.
Now if you will excuse me, after I finish my veal, I have baby seals to club and carbon fuels to burn...
I'm not sure which group you would be referring to.. Most vegetarians and vegans are health conscious enough to know better than to eat a lot of grain. And most people who eat a lot of fast food and red meat also eat a buttload of carbs as well. Agreed on the second point
AndrewD
Well-Known Member
Now if you will excuse me, after I finish my veal, I have baby seals to club and carbon fuels to burn...
Starvin'. We got any baby seal steaks back there?
brewingmeister
Well-Known Member
A friend of mine has been a vegetarian for decades and her family raised beef when she was growing up. Although while pregnant her Dr strongly encouraged her to diversify her eating habits because she was endangering the baby and herself from not getting enough nourishment.
Another friend was doing the caveman paleo thing for most of the month, he had some sort of schedule. However he had some health problems and I'm not sure if he's still at it like he was.
How I look at it is variety is the spice of life. I could care less what anyone else eats...seems like a super petty thing to be concerned about. The preaching is what annoys me.
"Here's my final point. About drugs, about alcohol, about pornography and smoking and everything else. What business is it of yours what I do, read, buy, see, say, think, who I ****, what I take into my body - as long as I don't harm another human being on this planet?" ~ Bill Hicks
Another friend was doing the caveman paleo thing for most of the month, he had some sort of schedule. However he had some health problems and I'm not sure if he's still at it like he was.
How I look at it is variety is the spice of life. I could care less what anyone else eats...seems like a super petty thing to be concerned about. The preaching is what annoys me.
"Here's my final point. About drugs, about alcohol, about pornography and smoking and everything else. What business is it of yours what I do, read, buy, see, say, think, who I ****, what I take into my body - as long as I don't harm another human being on this planet?" ~ Bill Hicks
bottlebomber
Well-Known Member
brewingmeister said:
He's out of his mind. I've didn't have as much as a Slim Jim growing up and I'm 6'6" and 245 lbs. No apparent lack of nourishment there. If the doctor thinks you need to eat meat to get proper nourishment he must be from the beef belt. My ex wife was vegetarian, and although she was very tiny our boys all weighed over 8 lbs and were off the charts for size all through their pediatrics. They are now eating a 99% vegetarian diet and are monsters... I think ignorance plays a large part in this thinking. What does meat provide that a vegetarian diet does not?
terrapinj
Well-Known Member
bottlebomber said:
No meat or little meat starting at birth for you and your kids?
brewingmeister
Well-Known Member
bottlebomber said:
Deep breaths man, I was merely retelling a story I though related. Would you like me to ask if she can supply the Dr's info so you can lecture them? Don't be the angry vegetarian.
I'm not a Dr but I play one on the internet....prescriptions of bacon wrapped jalapenos for everyone.
bottlebomber
Well-Known Member
Nope, not even a little bit. My parents went veg in the 60's and stayed that way.terrapinj said:
I'm not upset, it's just crazy sometimes how little some people know about about nutrition. I would definitely question the doctor, but I have no need to lecture anyone until they say that it is somehow less healthy being vegetarian. As far as bacon wrapped jalapeños, I have secret plans to assemble some ABTs ASAP. I just haven't had a chance. Even though I've never had bacon or little smokies I think it would be one of those exception worthy occasions.brewingmeister said:
brewingmeister
Well-Known Member
Holy crap, you've never had bacon? Seems I'll have to make some stuffed and wrapped peppers this week and post some mouth watering pics for ya.
Going from vegetarian to Lil smokeys is kinda like my pregnant friend who's return to meat was coneys, can't remember if they were gold star or skyline but the return to meat was coneys. If you are going to do it...at least do it right.
Going from vegetarian to Lil smokeys is kinda like my pregnant friend who's return to meat was coneys, can't remember if they were gold star or skyline but the return to meat was coneys. If you are going to do it...at least do it right.
JordanThomas
Well-Known Member
The irony in these kinds of threads is always pretty darn thick. The general theme here seems to be how judgmental vegans are, and yet the handful of actual vegans present (which doesn't include me) appear to be the only ones not passing judgment on anyone.
I am surely not a vegan, and haven't passed judgement on anyone. I've shared my experience with vegans, which admittedly has been bad, but that's the extent of it.
It's ok... Oftentimes the meat eaters that are really anti vegan/vegetarian are typically obese. In fact I've made some interesting graphs that show that the fatter they are, the more they hate vegans/vegetarians. It's empirical now.
I think we just passed judgement.
Then again, there are a large percentage of overweight Americans, so it wouldn't surprise me if this were true. I am going to just assume you were joking, though.
These were my original points, that somehow got taken way out of hand.
I understand that you insist you are referring to only "the vegans you have met", but if you don't intend for us to draw more generalized conclusions, why are you bothering to tell us at all? Is the point that we should find your friends and acquaintances intrinsically interesting?
Whattawort
Well-Known Member
How do you convert a Kosher Jew? Give him bacon. NYUCK NYUCK NYUCK!
Getting a little heated in here. Can't we all get along? Can we at least all agree that beer is good no matter your dietary preference? Ok then. Moving right along.
Getting a little heated in here. Can't we all get along? Can we at least all agree that beer is good no matter your dietary preference? Ok then. Moving right along.
JordanThomas
Well-Known Member
I didn't mean to upset you. I also fail to understand why you continue to berate me with rhetorical questions. They serve no purpose but to call me out, and for no reason. They are just presumptuous means of implying that my intent was something that it surely was not.
I didn't intend for anyone to draw any generalized conclusions. I was simply partaking in the conversation. When was that disallowed? Is my perspective or experience less valid than yours? That is a serious question.
This one time at lab camp I swear while I was looking at sum yeast under a scope it looked at me and smiled... oh wait, I don't think that really happened.. last thing I remember was pulling up my sacred datura for winter.
+1. People sure are quick to jump on the OP's back because of diet preferences. I always find it funny that certain guys like to try to declare their masculinity by what they eat. Sure sounds like overcompensation / insecurity to me.
Trust me when I say that I'm not "upset". I'm enjoying a cup of coffee and bouncing between my newspaper and HBT. In any case, I am now rolling my eyes, as I always do when somebody tells me that I am "upset". I'm not sure what gives you the impression that anything I am saying is an emotional response. It's trashy rhetoric, a way to dismiss someone's position without bothering to engage the substance of it. There's no need to drag things down to that. Are you upset?
More generally, I don't really go in for the "everybody's perspective is equally valid because we're all beautiful flowers" thing. No gold stars just for showing up. Your perspective is as valid as the conclusions it leads you to, no more and no less. As I keep saying, my only horse in this race is that I find it discouraging for homebrewers to buy-in to simplistic stereotyping of people with weird food interests. That same dynamic is why I don't talk about brewing beer at work. I'd be met with exactly this kind of chest-pounding ridicule. What an unpleasant fact about American culture, eh?
JordanThomas
Well-Known Member
I'm just going to let you have the last word right there. You win.
Whattawort
Well-Known Member
Don't look now, but you're engaging in it.
TyTanium
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Doing crossfit on hard-core paleo would be tough. I think most of those guys are "primal" not paleo, meaning they ingest small amounts of tuber-type carbs (i.e., potatoes). Ketones are great, but glucose really helps with the high intensity stuff.
I've been doing some research on this, and I've found the evidence pretty compelling in favor of meat. Grass fad, pasture quality meat, not feed-lot, corn-fed garbage. I think a lot of the paleo/primal stuff is very fad-like, almost cult-like, but some of the research is extremely compelling.
Here's some reading I found interesting: (it's on the internet, it has to be true...)
http://www.marksdailyapple.com/forum/thread67217.html
http://garytaubes.com/2012/03/science-pseudoscience-nutritional-epidemiology-and-meat/
http://nuclearfuzzgrunge.com/tlcm/
Again, I'm not pushing ideology here, just fostering discussion. I wholly affirm that we, the human race, don't know everything and there is no dietary silver bullet that cures all ails...Adam's curse prevails. And, my respect for you is not contingent upon your dietary choices.
Whattawort
Well-Known Member
Oh, he's hard-core Paleo alright. If a cave man couldn't pick it or kill it, he won't eat it. He'll let himself have a "free" day every month so he can partake in a family dinner or a couple of "normal" beers (i.e. made with grain). I tried doing a modified version of the diet, but that didn't last long.
TyTanium
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Again, that sounds like primal, but the distinction is pretty minimal.
Most modified versions don't last long. If you're still ingesting carbs/glucose, you kinda get stuck in "no man's" land where you're not getting enough glucose to function at 100%, but not yet adapted to burning fat, so you feel sluggish, tired, headachey, terrible. Not pushing you one way or the other, but you really have to commit to it to feel the benefits, whatever they may be.
Diet is one of those areas where we'll always have conflicting information. I've done a lot of reading on nutrition as well, and the most I ever learned from one single source was from the book The China Study. Sure, it's not going to be what most people want to hear, so many will dismiss it, but it's pretty compelling. Basically the largest study on the effects of nutrition in the history of humankind.
Can you be more specific? I don't follow what you are saying.
nutty_gnome
Well-Known Member
Pressed apple cider and yeast = awful applejack or sour scumble. Thats Raw and Vegan if you ask me.
If you could find a raw and vegan sugar to replace the corn sugar in Ed Appfelwine, that might be the ticket.
If you could find a raw and vegan sugar to replace the corn sugar in Ed Appfelwine, that might be the ticket.
TyTanium
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Criticism of the China Study:
http://rawfoodsos.com/2010/07/07/the-china-study-fact-or-fallac/
Again, not being argumentative, just providing both sides.
Nightshade
Well-Known Member
Just to bring this back a bit
I have eaten dog...I have also eaten cat, rat, squirrel, snake, alligator, horse, coyote and quite a few other "exotic" or taboo meats according to American standards.
I have also recently gone vegetarian due to an inability to digest red meat. If I am out on cycle tour I don't get so picky about it because there is less opportunity to control food supply to a certain extent, but then again I will gladly pick up my bow and take down and process an animal then give it to those who need it so it doesn't go to waste.
I have eaten dog...I have also eaten cat, rat, squirrel, snake, alligator, horse, coyote and quite a few other "exotic" or taboo meats according to American standards.
I have also recently gone vegetarian due to an inability to digest red meat. If I am out on cycle tour I don't get so picky about it because there is less opportunity to control food supply to a certain extent, but then again I will gladly pick up my bow and take down and process an animal then give it to those who need it so it doesn't go to waste.
Back to the original question - making a non animal raw beer.
stipulation - yeast is not an animal - technically it is a Fungi (fun guy? well it makes my beer fun sorry)
1. Get some raw grain, malt it, freeze it to stop the growth after a few days. But you probably need to set the freezer on "sub artic" because these dang little seeds are designed to survive winters.
2. I've been trying to figure out sanitation of the wort, which won't be boiled and the best I've come up with is to acid wash all the grain an hops (or other spice) and then rinse a few times to remove most of the acid characteristics.
3. At this point we still need to mash it, and an artifical mash process has to be used. This would require something like amyalze or some such used to break down starchs. I'm not ware how it is made, so I don't know if it counts in the 'vegan' catagory as typically described. Water would be added here
4. Filter off the grains. after checking gravities
5. Put it in a fermentor with hpos (or other spice choice) and yeast to ferment.
alternative. Mash grapes for juice and add spices (hops, wormwood) to that and go that route. (I'd offer mead, but usually that is out).
A note on fire. Wiki put fire's first use around 400Ky before present (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Control_of_fire_by_early_humans) Fire is basically an external stomach for humans, the heat activation breaks down certian material we couldn't digest otherwise, and removes certian harmful bacteria that we'd have to have a larger digestive system to deal with. Our brain is 3 times the size of a chimp's, but our intestines are 1/3rd the size. Pound for pound our brain uses more energy than any other part of our body. These are possible for the majority of humanity because of fire. (not dismissing the raw diet here btw, just pointing out our homosapien adaptations).
A note on a vegan I know. He stated he has difficulty obtaining his calories for a day, that much veggie has a lot of chewing, so he juices a lot. (see previous comment about fire).
Another vegan I know doesn't care about animals, he is vegan for his health - that is he went vegan about 5 years ago and has done weight control that way.
Frankly as far as I'm concerned, you can live how you want, just don't complain that your lifestyle has a cost, be it high cholesterol, or a lack of available food choices. Although I admit like Grain Free beer, I like the puzzel of a no cook beer, How coudl it be done?
stipulation - yeast is not an animal - technically it is a Fungi (fun guy? well it makes my beer fun
sorry)1. Get some raw grain, malt it, freeze it to stop the growth after a few days. But you probably need to set the freezer on "sub artic" because these dang little seeds are designed to survive winters.
2. I've been trying to figure out sanitation of the wort, which won't be boiled and the best I've come up with is to acid wash all the grain an hops (or other spice) and then rinse a few times to remove most of the acid characteristics.
3. At this point we still need to mash it, and an artifical mash process has to be used. This would require something like amyalze or some such used to break down starchs. I'm not ware how it is made, so I don't know if it counts in the 'vegan' catagory as typically described. Water would be added here
4. Filter off the grains. after checking gravities
5. Put it in a fermentor with hpos (or other spice choice) and yeast to ferment.
alternative. Mash grapes for juice and add spices (hops, wormwood) to that and go that route. (I'd offer mead, but usually that is out).
A note on fire. Wiki put fire's first use around 400Ky before present (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Control_of_fire_by_early_humans) Fire is basically an external stomach for humans, the heat activation breaks down certian material we couldn't digest otherwise, and removes certian harmful bacteria that we'd have to have a larger digestive system to deal with. Our brain is 3 times the size of a chimp's, but our intestines are 1/3rd the size. Pound for pound our brain uses more energy than any other part of our body. These are possible for the majority of humanity because of fire. (not dismissing the raw diet here btw, just pointing out our homosapien adaptations).
A note on a vegan I know. He stated he has difficulty obtaining his calories for a day, that much veggie has a lot of chewing, so he juices a lot. (see previous comment about fire).
Another vegan I know doesn't care about animals, he is vegan for his health - that is he went vegan about 5 years ago and has done weight control that way.
Frankly as far as I'm concerned, you can live how you want, just don't complain that your lifestyle has a cost, be it high cholesterol, or a lack of available food choices. Although I admit like Grain Free beer, I like the puzzel of a no cook beer, How coudl it be done?
Back to the original question - making a non animal raw beer.
stipulation - yeast is not an animal - technically it is a Fungi (fun guy? well it makes my beer fun
1. Get some raw grain, malt it, freeze it to stop the growth after a few days. But you probably need to set the freezer on "sub artic" because these dang little seeds are designed to survive winters.
2. I've been trying to figure out sanitation of the wort, which won't be boiled and the best I've come up with is to acid wash all the grain an hops (or other spice) and then rinse a few times to remove most of the acid characteristics.
3. At this point we still need to mash it, and an artifical mash process has to be used. This would require something like amyalze or some such used to break down starchs. I'm not ware how it is made, so I don't know if it counts in the 'vegan' catagory as typically described. Water would be added here
4. Filter off the grains. after checking gravities
5. Put it in a fermentor with hpos (or other spice choice) and yeast to ferment.
I think you may lose the majority of the starch by washing the grains in acid? Especially after rinsing it too?
I don't think an enzyme is required -- should be able to just soak the grains for an extended period of time.
Also, don't the alpha acids in the hops need to be isomerized to get the desired bitterness?
Is DMS a concern if there isn't a boil?
I too enjoy the puzzle. I wish people weren't so up in arms over what other people choose to eat.
I should add that I also wish people were more well informed about the effects of their food choices. But that is difficult to attain and abstract.
Whattawort
Well-Known Member
It was the life without glutens that was killing me. I rather like my whole grains and taters. Quinoa was the last straw for me....that and sorghum beer. We eat fairly healthy at our house, so as long as we keep the input less than or equal to the output we generally feel good about our diet. But it is football season, and who can resist hot wings, bacon burgers, bratwurst, and beer ever now and then? Ok, some of you can, but I'm not that strong willed.
Whattawort
Well-Known Member
I'll let you go back and re-read your replies in this thread. If you weren't engaged, then you probably wouldn't have bothered to post multiple times. Just an observation.
