Lager Troubles(esters)

Hi. This is my first post. Sorry, it will be long, but I want to be detailed.

So I had been brewing for about a year when I decided to try my hand at lagering. Went with a keezer design, got a 75$ used chest freezer, built it to utilize 5 taps, digital temp control, got kegging equipment etc. I've always been a fan of the Munich Helles so I brewed one of those using a kit from my LHBS, with wyeast 2308(munich).

The owner there recommended starting out at 65 degrees F to allow the yeast to get started, then bring it down to the recommended range for the yeast, which is 48-56 degrees F. Fine, so set the carboy in the keezer, set the temp, and the freezer died 6 hrs later. Couldn't get a solution figured out in time, so I just let that batch ferment at room temps to see how it should NOT taste. It was awful of course, very estery and sulphury. First ever dumped batch.

I saved up and got a brand new freezer and ripped off someones design from this site for my new keezer:

So I tried the same kit, same yeast, same strategy(minus the failed freezer of course, also added d-rest), and 3 months later still had terrible beer. It was a little bit better, but still very estery(banana variety) and a little sulphury. Didn't seem to bother my dad, so I let him drink this batch.

I went online and tried to figure out the issue. For attempt three I got a different kit, which was brewer's best's Helles, Used the same type of yeast, but tried a different strategy. I did a 2L yeast starter at 55 degrees for 24 hrs, brewed the wort, but let it cool in the keezer until was also 55 degrees before I pitched. Slowly cooled it down to 45 degrees assuming it would ferment a few degrees warmer than the air in the keezer to get me to the recommended range of 48-56.

When the beer reached a gravity reading of .020 I did a D-rest at 65 degrees for two days, FG .008, cold crash, keg, lager at 35 for a month, and tasted it. It was about 90% better, but still estery, still a bit sulphury. Its drinkable now, but I'd like to get it to taste how its supposed to.

I'm assuming its a fermentation issue so I didnt list any of the brewing info. The only thing I can think to do is start at a colder temperature, but I see people say all over the internet that they pitch at 65 or room temp and let it sit in their garage or basement with a fan to ferment with no issues. It doesn't seem like a taste that will go away by giving it more time. I'd like to get some opinions before I spend any more time or money on lagering. Thanks for reading and helping.

How much lager yeast did you pitch on each batch? Did you consider pitching on the previous yeast cake?

With a helles, there isn't much room for error (really none), you can't hide behind hops or strong flavors somewhere else. For your next batch, I would try a couple of things:
1. Make sure you pitch enough yeast. Use Mr. Malty or the newer Yeastcalc site (I like the new site better). This will help cut down on the esters. Decant your starter too, and only pitch the yeast.
2. Pitch even colder. Try getting the wort down below your ferment, like 45 or so, and don't ferment above 50.
3. Let it lager a bit longer. A few more weeks will probably get rid of the sulphur, the esters, maybe not.
4. Check into your water too. I'm just now getting into this myself, but for pils, helles, etc., water can have a bigger impact.

Good luck.

StoneHands said:

With a helles, there isn't much room for error (really none), you can't hide behind hops or strong flavors somewhere else. For your next batch, I would try a couple of things:
1. Make sure you pitch enough yeast. Use Mr. Malty or the newer Yeastcalc site (I like the new site better). This will help cut down on the esters. Decant your starter too, and only pitch the yeast.
2. Pitch even colder. Try getting the wort down below your ferment, like 45 or so, and don't ferment above 50.
3. Let it lager a bit longer. A few more weeks will probably get rid of the sulphur, the esters, maybe not.
4. Check into your water too. I'm just now getting into this myself, but for pils, helles, etc., water can have a bigger impact.

Good luck.

Click to expand...

I agree with all of the above. Pitching at 45 and allowing the beer to rise to 50 degrees (no higher) will encourage yeast growth and reproduction and a good healthy start. I know people pitch at 70 and drop the temp, but then esters can be a problem. I don't pitch my ales at 90 degrees and drop the temp 25 degrees, either!

Water can be important in lagers, but that probably isn't the cause of any of these off flavors. Lagering should help the sulfur, and perhaps some of the esters.

You could try a different yeast strain, to see if it's maybe just that strain that doesn't do so well for you.

Wow thanks for the quick replies.

As far as the yeast goes, my starter was one smack pack into 2L of wort that was about .045 gravity. Let that go for 24 hrs, swirling occasionally. There was more than an inch of yeast on the bottom of the flask before I pitched, I dont know how many cells or units of yeast that would be, but it seemed like a lot to me. I did decant it.

The water I've been using lately is nestle one gallon jugs from walmart. I dont know enough about water to add anything to it or treat it.

So maybe next time I'll use a yeast calculator, and just pitch and ferment at 45 the whole time? I am letting this current batch go a little longer before I drink more, to see what effect that has on it.

Thanks a lot.

Yooper said:

I agree with all of the above. Pitching at 45 and allowing the beer to rise to 50 degrees (no higher) will encourage yeast growth and reproduction and a good healthy start. I know people pitch at 70 and drop the temp, but then esters can be a problem. I don't pitch my ales at 90 degrees and drop the temp 25 degrees, either!

Water can be important in lagers, but that probably isn't the cause of any of these off flavors. Lagering should help the sulfur, and perhaps some of the esters.

You could try a different yeast strain, to see if it's maybe just that strain that doesn't do so well for you.

Click to expand...

(you posted while I was typing my last response)

Okay, so I'll try pitching at 45, and bumping it up a little.

For any beer, you want to pitch a large amount of yeast, cooler than fermentation temp. I pitch the lager yeast at 45 and have my fermentation temp controller at 50 deg, that is with a thermowell in the liquid so its liquid temp, not air temp.
I keep it there for 2 weeks, then let them finish at room temp, about 65 deg.
Lagers are much slower than ales, and are really dependent on cool temps. The best lagers are made when you repitch onto a cake for the second beer.

pat07421 said:

Wow thanks for the quick replies.

As far as the yeast goes, my starter was one smack pack into 2L of wort that was about .045 gravity. Let that go for 24 hrs, swirling occasionally. There was more than an inch of yeast on the bottom of the flask before I pitched, I dont know how many cells or units of yeast that would be, but it seemed like a lot to me. I did decant it.

The water I've been using lately is nestle one gallon jugs from walmart. I dont know enough about water to add anything to it or treat it.

So maybe next time I'll use a yeast calculator, and just pitch and ferment at 45 the whole time? I am letting this current batch go a little longer before I drink more, to see what effect that has on it.

Thanks a lot.

Click to expand...

^^^That still may be under pitching.

badbrew said:

^^^That still may be under pitching.

Click to expand...

Looks like it. Mr. Malty says I would need 2 packs in 1.64L wort, or one pack in 4L wort.

onthekeg said:

For any beer, you want to pitch a large amount of yeast...
The best lagers are made when you repitch onto a cake for the second beer.

Click to expand...

I would buy ingredients & brew a beer with the plan of dumping it onto this yeast cake.
You are definitely underpitching a lager with 1 smack pack and intermittent shaking over a very short period of time. Also look at buying/building a stir plate.

Also the instructions to pitch warm and cool down once fermentation starts is imo bad advice... it is done to get yeast replication... but at a great cost (crappy beer).
good luck!

Thanks, guys. Sounds like i'll have a solid plan for the next batch.

pat07421 said:

...I dont know how many cells or units of yeast that would be, but it seemed like a lot to me...I dont know enough about water to add anything to it or treat it...

Click to expand...

The post by Stonehands is right on the money.

If you want to be a lager brewer your level of effort has to improve. Proper yeast pitching rates are important. Put the effort in to pitch enough yeast if you are going to invest the time required to make a good lager.

Learning about water profiles isn't rocket science either. If you are using bottled spring water you are probably fine, but water adjustments from RO, spring, or tap water are a small, easy thing to do. Heck, your tap water may be fine, even perfect for some styles--many municipalities publish water reports that will give you all the info you need to put into an existing water adjustment spreadsheet like EZ Water Calculator.

Good luck!

The key with lagers is temperature control and pitching proper healthy volumes of yeast. If you're pitching healthy volumes of yeast then you can pitch at fermentation temp. IMO pitching at 65 - 70 to get the yeast started and then lowering to fermentation temps is poor practice. Make the effort to pitch the right amount of yeast and you won't need to need to do this. You'll reduce off-flavors from the yeast and produce a cleaner beer - hell, you probably wouldn't even need to do a D-rest if you're practicing good yeast techniques. And it's not hard at all. Mr. Malty takes all the difficulty out of it. My last two lagers were the first two I've ever brewed - I followed my advice above and they turned out fantastic. I entered both, a bock and vienna, in two competitions three months apart. The bock picked up a 1st and 3rd and the Vienna picked up two 2nds.

Fair enough. I think the problem was that my efforts were focused in getting my info from the wrong places. If my local brew shop guy said a 2L starter with one pack of yeast was enough I believed him. I'm definitely willing to learn more about making better lagers.

People say "The" book for lagers is Brewing Lagers (or something similar) by Noonan. So maybe look at it...I just got it so can't comment further.

Awesome, I'll check it out. The only reference I've had for lagers is Palmer's "How to brew", which in the lagers section uses a lot of qualitative verbage rather than quantitative. So I knew I needed to "start the fermentation colder", but didn't know to go all the way down to 45, and I knew I needed to use "more" yeast, but not really how much more.

Yes, Palmer's How to Brew is a bit out of date. If you're talking about the free online edition, then it's really out of date.

There is a solid wiki on here for lagers. Wiki's can be found at the top of the HBT page.

A lot of the information I see people post from their LHBS is just plain wrong or even worse, will negatively impact your beer. I think a lot of the LHBS guys got their start reading How to Brew and never got the updated information.

The book in question is "New Brewing Lager Beer" by Noonan. Even it is a bit dated now but I am all in favour of reading as widely as possible.

You can get a huge amount of good info on this board or elsewhere on the web; the problem is trying to sort out what is good advice from bad is difficult when you are starting out. For every person saying pitch at 45 and raise to 50 there is one saying pitch at 65 and lower when you see activity.

osagedr said:

For every person saying pitch at 45 and raise to 50 there is one saying pitch at 65 and lower when you see activity.

Click to expand...

Exactly. I do remember reading some posts on here about starting under 50, but it seemed like there were more people saying start higher and go down, and coupled with my LHBS telling me the same thing thats what I did.

pat07421 said:

Exactly. I do remember reading some posts on here about starting under 50, but it seemed like there were more people saying start higher and go down, and coupled with my LHBS telling me the same thing thats what I did.

Click to expand...

*shrugs*

You could always try both methods and see which one you prefer.

If you think about it though, fermenting a lager at higher temperatures (say 60 - 65), even if it's only a day or so to get the yeast fermenting hard, is going to make off-flavors. If you can avoid it by pitching a healthy volume of yeast, why wouldn't you?

Great. I just brewed my first lager. The fermentation went as expected and it is sitting in the beer fridge lagering as we speak. I started out at 65* per the wyeast package for 12 hours and lowered it to 50*. No you all have me worried it's going to suck.

tochsner said:

Great. I just brewed my first lager. The fermentation went as expected and it is sitting in the beer fridge lagering as we speak. I started out at 65* per the wyeast package for 12 hours and lowered it to 50*. No you all have me worried it's going to suck.

Click to expand...

Did you smell/taste it before you kegged it?

tochsner said:

Great. I just brewed my first lager. The fermentation went as expected and it is sitting in the beer fridge lagering as we speak. I started out at 65* per the wyeast package for 12 hours and lowered it to 50*. No you all have me worried it's going to suck.

Click to expand...

Yeah, the Wyeast smack packs are notorious for recommending underpitching. Did you make a starter? You really need to make them for liquid yeast, and the need is magnified for lagers. Will your beer be okay? I don't know, you'll have to wait and see. Next time make a starter, pitch at fermentation temps, and you won't have to worry.