Use RO waste water for beer making?

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Nerdie

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Location
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I have a RO/DI (reverse osmosis deionize) water system. I live in NYC. The tap water is one of the best in the world. It has 35 ppm with a TDS meter. Most people use their tap with with a carbon filter to prevent chlorophenols (sp.?). I do not want to invest in that system as my system cost way more and can do a lot more. I brought the system because I have a salt water fish tank. But I use it for drinking, water for anti-freeze, steamer, iron, etc.

Now I have two 45 gallon large barrels to collect RO water and RO WASTE water.... The RO water usually goes to my fish tank. I don't want to use RO water in beer making because I will probably have to add calcium along with other trace elements, right? That's a pain in the butt. Plus, most of the water goes to my fish tank and I have a lot of WASTE water. I was thinking of using the RO WASTE water for brewing since I collect it too because I don't want to waste anything because I'm eco-friendly. Before I used it to clean things, water the plants, etc.

I have a six stage filter system. See, I believe ALL water goes through the sediment filter (5 micron I believe). Then I believe ALL water goes through 2 carbon filters. I believe it moves to the RO filter and some goes as waste. But if this is true (is it?), then shouldn't it be great for brewing since it went through a carbon filter? What do you think?

ro-v2-raulshadow-modified.jpg
 
I also have a RO/DI unit that I use for my tropical marine fish tank. The waste water they produce is all ways a cause for concern.
First of all dont use RO water for making beer as all the trace elments have been cleaned out so there is no taste to the water. I have done a brew with RO water and it felt very "hollow".
When you say 35ppm is this pre or post filtering? Incidenlty waht are your pre and post TDS readings?
The best solution I can come up with is to mix some of your waste water with some of your RO water until you reach a TDS reading that is close to your tap water readings.
HTH
 
What I have just said is total bollox. If you mix your waste water with RO water to the same ppm as your tap water, you might just as well use tap water. (sorry, Its early).
What are the TDS readings of your waste water?
Anything up to 300ppm should be fine for brewing beer.
 
I personally would love to use the RO water for brewing as I add salts to every brew and would like to start with a negligible amount of ions already in the water. Given the quality of the applications / webapps that do water addition calculations, I think you could get up and running in 20 minutes and then spend 2 minutes calculating and measuring every brew. Not a huge pain.

If you can figure out how to maintain a large fish tank, you can figure out adding salts to your brewing water!

I'd use the RO waste water for laundry or washing my car.
 
I personally would love to use the RO water for brewing as I add salts to every brew and would like to start with a negligible amount of ions already in the water. Given the quality of the applications / webapps that do water addition calculations, I think you could get up and running in 20 minutes and then spend 2 minutes calculating and measuring every brew. Not a huge pain.

If you can figure out how to maintain a large fish tank, you can figure out adding salts to your brewing water!

I'd use the RO waste water for laundry or washing my car.

Its not the salts and larger part chemicals, its the trace elements that are impossible to replicate. These trace elements are what give regional water its distinctive taste. eg Burton-upon-Trent
 
Its not the salts and larger part chemicals, its the trace elements that are impossible to replicate. These trace elements are what give regional water its distinctive taste. eg Burton-upon-Trent

Like what? I'm pretty good with water chemistry, but what "trace elements" are you referring to?

I use RO water for many brews, simply adding what I need (MgSO4, CaSO4, CaCl2, CaCO3, etc). I use tap water for stouts, since my water is very high in alkalinity (bicarb) and that comes out very well. But for other brews, I have to either mix RO and tap water, or use RO and add chemicals.
 
You have room in your NYC place a fish tank AND two 45 gallon barrels full of water? Are you Trump?

If you're an extract brewer (you didn't say), you can use RO or 1/2 RO and half tap for lighter beers. Go straight tap for darker beers.

If you're brewing all grain, you can become a better brewer if you become educated on water's effects on brewing/mash/flavor. You can either get a full water report for your tap and adjust with dilution and salts or start with RO and build. You already have the RO so it's not that big of a stretch.

OT side note. If you have a sump under your fish tank, you can install a float valve so that you never really have to collect that much top up water. I used to do that but the float valve clamped on to the sump so I could move it over to a 10 gallon barrel to collect for water changes.
 
Nerdie, the best thing for you to do would be to set up a bypass directly after the carbon, before the RO and the DI cart. That way you could still run your brewing water through the carbon, but not waste the time putting it through DI.

NYC water is surprisingly clean. I have 33TDS coming out of my tap. I ditched my RO and just go straight to DI. I have to change the resin more often, but a resin change is $7. I buy the resin a cubic foot of it at a time.

You shouldn't ever hook a RO unit directly up to a float valve in your sump. You'll drastically reduce your membrane life having it turn on and off and on many times in a day.

If you think about the ratio of TDS in tap, RO and RO-waste, you get:

33ppm x5 (4-1 rejection rate of your membrane) = 1 gallon of 0 TDS and 4 gallons of ~165 TDS. Still fine for brewing, as long as you get rid of the Cl.

and way way off topic, do you know about manhattanreefs.com?

HTH,
B
 
Like what? I'm pretty good with water chemistry, but what "trace elements" are you referring to?

I use RO water for many brews, simply adding what I need (MgSO4, CaSO4, CaCl2, CaCO3, etc). I use tap water for stouts, since my water is very high in alkalinity (bicarb) and that comes out very well. But for other brews, I have to either mix RO and tap water, or use RO and add chemicals.

Arsenic
Boron
Cadium
Chromium
Copper
Iron
Lead
Magnesium
Manganese
Nickel
These are all trace elements that are found in tap water and are impossible to replicate.

Back to OP......You can get a pump to feed your waste RO water back through your RO unit, but this will seriously affect the life of your membranes.
 
Arsenic
Boron
Cadium
Chromium
Copper
Iron
Lead
Magnesium
Manganese
Nickel
These are all trace elements that are found in tap water and are impossible to replicate.

Back to OP......You can get a pump to feed your waste RO water back through your RO unit, but this will seriously affect the life of your membranes.

Well, if you say so. I'm definitely not a fan of arsenic, lead, nickel, or iron in my water so I won't bother trying to replicate it. Arsenic and lead are poisonous, and iron tastes like blood.

Magnesium is incredibly easy to add, but you don't need much at all. I think saying that using RO water and building from there isn't as good as using water with lead in it is pretty silly!
 
It is not impossible to replicate, just not likely. Besides, how much flavor to you think the lead & arsenic are adding to your beer? Personally I use 50/50 RO and tap but I have done 100% RO and found them to be indiscernible from each other. To each his/her own though... whatever works for you, do it...
 
If you think about the ratio of TDS in tap, RO and RO-waste, you get:

33ppm x5 (4-1 rejection rate of your membrane) = 1 gallon of 0 TDS and 4 gallons of ~165 TDS. Still fine for brewing, as long as you get rid of the Cl.

Wouldn't that be 1 gal at 0 TDS and 4 gal at ~41 TDS? Still pretty darn soft water.
 
Nerdie, the best thing for you to do would be to set up a bypass directly after the carbon, before the RO and the DI cart. That way you could still run your brewing water through the carbon, but not waste the time putting it through DI.

NYC water is surprisingly clean. I have 33TDS coming out of my tap. I ditched my RO and just go straight to DI. I have to change the resin more often, but a resin change is $7. I buy the resin a cubic foot of it at a time.

You shouldn't ever hook a RO unit directly up to a float valve in your sump. You'll drastically reduce your membrane life having it turn on and off and on many times in a day.

If you think about the ratio of TDS in tap, RO and RO-waste, you get:

33ppm x5 (4-1 rejection rate of your membrane) = 1 gallon of 0 TDS and 4 gallons of ~165 TDS. Still fine for brewing, as long as you get rid of the Cl.

and way way off topic, do you know about manhattanreefs.com?

HTH,
B

geez how many fish geeks we got in here?:rockin:
I haven't used my RO or delved into the world of brewing chemistry but plan to soon. My question to the OP is @ 35 ppm you are ready to rock right? The waste water should be perfect and prolly require some additions.
 
ive been using tapwater from north jersey in my reef tank....but i do have a bit of algae
 
I have used RO water from the grocery store to make my beer since I started brewing three years ago. I can't use our well water to brew because it's loaded with calcium and iron. I only add minerals to the water when called for by a recipe, e.g., Burton water salts.

I remain unconvinced of things like "hollowness" in the taste of beer caused by RO water. My beer tastes fine to me, and evidently to other people who have imbibed.

Throwing out the figure that is given elsewhere in this thread for NYC water of 33 ppm TDS, I fail to see how this amount of minerals in the water (compared to, for the sake of argument, 0 ppm for RO water) could either add or subtract flavor, body or etc., or affect the brewing process significantly.

Apart from anecdotal statements that "it tastes better to me," can anyone provide a link to actual studies that have been done on this subject?
 
I also have a RO/DI unit that I use for my tropical marine fish tank. The waste water they produce is all ways a cause for concern.
First of all dont use RO water for making beer as all the trace elments have been cleaned out so there is no taste to the water. I have done a brew with RO water and it felt very "hollow".
When you say 35ppm is this pre or post filtering? Incidenlty waht are your pre and post TDS readings?
The best solution I can come up with is to mix some of your waste water with some of your RO water until you reach a TDS reading that is close to your tap water readings.
HTH

Why would the waster water be a cause for concern? Many people just use a carbon filter for beer brewing, I believe the waste water goes through two carbon filters!

I used RO water for making beer and it came out GREAT very smooth. But I only make extract at the moment. I would and will continue to use RO with extract. Charlies Papazian even wrote it was okay in his book (only one line) because the malting process was used with water with the right ions. I am moving to all grain, just order my SS single tier =)... I wouldn't use RO water with that unless I add salts and ions because to malt you need certain minerals.... But I wanted to use the waste water for it...

35ish ppm per filtering .... 0ppm after filtering.... I believe around 40ppm for waste but I will have to check that... I remember it being a little higher or lower than tap.

I will disregard last statement
 
I personally would love to use the RO water for brewing as I add salts to every brew and would like to start with a negligible amount of ions already in the water. Given the quality of the applications / webapps that do water addition calculations, I think you could get up and running in 20 minutes and then spend 2 minutes calculating and measuring every brew. Not a huge pain.

If you can figure out how to maintain a large fish tank, you can figure out adding salts to your brewing water!

I'd use the RO waste water for laundry or washing my car.

Well RO water makes A LOT of waste water... for every gallon you get about 3-4 gallon of waste water!!!

starting with RO is ideal but is it really necessary? maybe for some types but I think my tap is great (about 35 ppm) but wanted to carbon filter it (without a single carbon filter). Ions and salts cost money.... more time... I'm not that good at tasting yet that I am supposed to know the "traditional taste". I'm not sure if the "traditional taste" taste the best either.... thanks for the confidence booster that I could do it though =) ......

for for a 10g batch 40g of waste!!! I have enough waste from my fish tank!
 
You have room in your NYC place a fish tank AND two 45 gallon barrels full of water? Are you Trump?

If you're an extract brewer (you didn't say), you can use RO or 1/2 RO and half tap for lighter beers. Go straight tap for darker beers.

If you're brewing all grain, you can become a better brewer if you become educated on water's effects on brewing/mash/flavor. You can either get a full water report for your tap and adjust with dilution and salts or start with RO and build. You already have the RO so it's not that big of a stretch.

OT side note. If you have a sump under your fish tank, you can install a float valve so that you never really have to collect that much top up water. I used to do that but the float valve clamped on to the sump so I could move it over to a 10 gallon barrel to collect for water changes.

big fan of your by the way... u made me want to go all grain with those videos... nice brew party in your backyard btw.... invite me one day for a gathering =) I never brewed with anyone... I am a textbook brewer but I'm sure I am missing a few tricks of the trade

NYC as in Queens... no i'm poor :mug: I'm actually moving to Manhattan soon with my girlfriend not sure how that's all going to work out though lol... she said she'll make it work... she never seen the single tier yet though ;)

I use RO with extract atm... straight tap for dark? how about chlorophenols that I have been reading about? i don't think I ever had off flavors or contaminations (knock on wood).... but I never used tap either... going all grain within the month hopefully that's why I am asking questions...

I collect RO and waste water in big barrels so "no waste of water" of either water.. but want to use the waste more
 
Nerdie, thanks for the kind words, we'll definitely have to get together and brew sometime.


TDS is not exactly the type of measurement that helps us determine applicability to brew water. However, based on water test results I've seen from NYC supplies, I would agree that the waste water would work fine for extract brewing because it's still softer than most tap water everywhere else. I agree that the two passes through carbon would knock out most of the chlorine and inorganic.

From NYC's 2009 quality report:http://www.nyc.gov/html/dep/pdf/wsstate09.pdf


Ca: 5.5
Na: 9
Mg: 1.2
Cl: 11
S04: 4.7
Alk: 12.9 as CaC03

Assuming a 4:1 waste to RO volume ratio, the ions in the waste water would be about 20% higher. Again, nothing really. I'd still add a little epsom salt and in some cases gypsum when brewing pale ales and IPAs. The S04 and Mg are quite low.

If you're brewing all grain, I'd do a lot more.
 
Nerdie, thanks for the kind words, we'll definitely have to get together and brew sometime.


TDS is not exactly the type of measurement that helps us determine applicability to brew water. However, based on water test results I've seen from NYC supplies, I would agree that the waste water would work fine for extract brewing because it's still softer than most tap water everywhere else.

From NYC's 2009 quality report:

Ca: 5.5
Na: 9
Mg: 1.2
Cl: 11
S04: 4.7
Alk: 12.9 as CaC03

Assuming a 4:1 waste to RO volume ratio, the ions in the waste water would be about 20% higher. Again, nothing really. I'd still add a little epsom salt and in some cases gypsum when brewing pale ales and IPAs. The S04 and Mg are quite low.

If you're brewing all grain, I'd do a lot more.

Yeah i really didn't look or care about ions since I did extract because of Papazian's book but maybe I should. I was really worried about the chloride (or was it chlorine) that people usually use carbon filters for... You know what next extract brew (before my single tier comes) I'll use RO water AND salts. I'll try to balance it myself. Back to the brew shop... back to hitting the books....
 
Nerdie, the best thing for you to do would be to set up a bypass directly after the carbon, before the RO and the DI cart. That way you could still run your brewing water through the carbon, but not waste the time putting it through DI.

NYC water is surprisingly clean. I have 33TDS coming out of my tap. I ditched my RO and just go straight to DI. I have to change the resin more often, but a resin change is $7. I buy the resin a cubic foot of it at a time.

You shouldn't ever hook a RO unit directly up to a float valve in your sump. You'll drastically reduce your membrane life having it turn on and off and on many times in a day.

If you think about the ratio of TDS in tap, RO and RO-waste, you get:

33ppm x5 (4-1 rejection rate of your membrane) = 1 gallon of 0 TDS and 4 gallons of ~165 TDS. Still fine for brewing, as long as you get rid of the Cl.

and way way off topic, do you know about manhattanreefs.com?

HTH,
B

LOL... Love manhattanreefs! I used to go on a lot a few years ago.. now I just go on to sell or buy something! Small world... small world.... both hobbies must have something in common to attract the same hobbyist...

I don't think my waste water is that high! I'll have to check again when I go home... Not more than 50 ppm for sure.... Don't you think the Cl is gone because of the 2 carbon pre filters that waste water has to go through though?
 
I have used RO water from the grocery store to make my beer since I started brewing three years ago. I can't use our well water to brew because it's loaded with calcium and iron. I only add minerals to the water when called for by a recipe, e.g., Burton water salts.

I remain unconvinced of things like "hollowness" in the taste of beer caused by RO water. My beer tastes fine to me, and evidently to other people who have imbibed.

Throwing out the figure that is given elsewhere in this thread for NYC water of 33 ppm TDS, I fail to see how this amount of minerals in the water (compared to, for the sake of argument, 0 ppm for RO water) could either add or subtract flavor, body or etc., or affect the brewing process significantly.

Apart from anecdotal statements that "it tastes better to me," can anyone provide a link to actual studies that have been done on this subject?

chlorine (or chloride)... they could create chlorophenols with the phenols... right? lol
 
Ive just been tinkering in my garage/brewery/fishroom and Ive had a thought. Why dont you run your R/O waste through a seperate carbon filter. A 2li plastic Coke bottle, a handful of filter floss and filled with granulated activated carbon. This will remove any chlorines and with such a low TDS water reading I wouldnt worry about anything else (maybe up the Mg a little with Epsom Salts).
Just a thought.
 
Again, what I have just said is total bollox.
Your water has already been through a carbon filter before it goes through the R/O membrane. Have you checked the reading of your waste water for Chlorine?
With a six stage unit I would definately use the waste water for brewing.
 
Chloride is different from Chlorine. We want the former in the water and not the latter. I highly doubt there is any chlorine in the waste water having already gone through the carbon in the RO unit. Of course, the carbon has to be changed out regularly to be affective.
 
Chloride is different from Chlorine. We want the former in the water and not the latter. I highly doubt there is any chlorine in the waste water having already gone through the carbon in the RO unit. Of course, the carbon has to be changed out regularly to be affective.

yeah I get confused... Wasn't sure which one.. .u def don't want chlorine.. that's bleach... chloride is just the element Cl or Cl- as an ion.... I should think a little before I type that out next time...
 
Chlorine is an element, which almost always occurs as Cl2 (diatomic). Chloride is the Cl- ion. Sodium hypochlorite, NaClO, is bleach.
 
Chloride is different from Chlorine. We want the former in the water and not the latter. I highly doubt there is any chlorine in the waste water having already gone through the carbon in the RO unit. Of course, the carbon has to be changed out regularly to be affective.

Sorry thread hi-jack for Bobby M...just noticed your avatar. Why does by refractometer that I use for my maarine reef not register on my homebrew when testing for gravity ?
Thanks Johnnyboy
 
LOL... Love manhattanreefs! I used to go on a lot a few years ago.. now I just go on to sell or buy something! Small world... small world.... both hobbies must have something in common to attract the same hobbyist...

I broke down my reef tank and started brewing this year. My wife thinks it has something to do with buckets and hoses....
 
Water, temp control, hoses, sp gravity, water specs, filtering, methodical cleaning, hoses again,
It all cant be a coincidence, or are all fish keepers, beer drinkers. Or, do all people who drink beer keep fish?
Forgot to mention not being able to throw anything away that I might need in the future like.....old heaters that you know are broken, OOD M/H lamps.

Or it might just be me
 
I kept a reef for about ten years before giving it up, a 90 gallon on the main floor with a 150 gallon basement sump. Guess what's in my sump room now, lol.
 
I kept a reef for about ten years before giving it up, a 90 gallon on the main floor with a 150 gallon basement sump. Guess what's in my sump room now, lol.


Hey, hey, hey... same specs as mine . 100gl display 150gl remote sump. Isnt it strange that the sump romm is kept at 26oC
 
I brought the refractometer for my salt water fish tank because I got into brewing and thought I could use it for that too... that gave me the push to get one... Johnnyboy I think you can use it.. u just need a conversion because the alcohol drops the s.g. There's a excel file for that somewhere... I hate wasting all that beer for the hydrometer ... 2 drops is all you need for the refractometer
 
Water, temp control, hoses, sp gravity, water specs, filtering, methodical cleaning, hoses again,
It all cant be a coincidence, or are all fish keepers, beer drinkers. Or, do all people who drink beer keep fish?
Forgot to mention not being able to throw anything away that I might need in the future like.....old heaters that you know are broken, OOD M/H lamps.

Or it might just be me

not just you. i love both hobbies. they both hit on so many different sciences/techniques/skills. and you can take each one as far as you want, or stick to the basics. my tank is suffering because of my brewing. the biggest advantage is the end result with brewing:mug:, and i can do my brewing chores on my time. I think I'll be downsizing to a 40B soon.:)
 
not just you. i love both hobbies. they both hit on so many different sciences/techniques/skills. and you can take each one as far as you want, or stick to the basics. my tank is suffering because of my brewing. the biggest advantage is the end result with brewing:mug:, and i can do my brewing chores on my time. I think I'll be downsizing to a 40B soon.:)


I have a pretty nice starfire 58gallon for sale. . .

Nothing to add except I dig the bucket and hoses comment.

B
 
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