Frustrated...What is my next move?

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MrEggSandwich

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Location
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I've been brewing for about 3 years now with 20+ brews under my belt. I currently am doing partial mashes (up to 5lbs of grain), control my fermentation temps with a chest freezer/temp controller, always do starters.

My last few brews have left me frustrated as:

-I am getting very little, to no hop aroma even with late additions & dry hopping. The best way I can describe is a very muddled hop flavor/aroma...soapy/metallic. No distinction in aroma whatsoever. Now that I think of it, this flavor may be present in all of my brews, but it is more prominent with IPAs.

-As far as body, color, etc...no issues there with any of my brews...this is strictly a flavor issue. I don't seem to be getting "clean" flavors with any of my brews. (i.e- No brown sugar flavor when using caramelized sugar, no orange when using orange peel, no clean aroma/flavor from hops.)

I am thinking it may be a water issue. I have never had mine tested, I run my water via hose through a charcoal filter. I am doing partial mashes, and do my best to control my temps, but they do fluctuate. I am been getting very good conversion. I am very clean, use starsan and PBW only to clean.


Any thoughts on what I should change/check is appreciated....I plan to get my water checked ASAP.

Thanks!
 
The question that jumps to my mind is are you doing full boils? It is well known that hops utilization change drastically in between full and partial boils, and since it's a flavor issue rather than a body/color/head one I'd look more over the hops than the grain. Do you store your hops for an extended period of time in the freezer? Something you can try to rule out this possibility is making a small AG batch within your means, like a 2.5g or 1g batch. If it still tastes strange, you know your problem is linked to an ingredient rather than the method, maybe hops freshness or water.

Water could also be an issue, best way to know for sure is to test it although in general if it tastes good your beer should come out fine.
 
A lot of people complain of good orange flavor with orange peel and switch to orange zest. I guess the drying of the peel pulls alot of the aromatics out. As for the brown sugar, that's highly fermentable sugar so I doubt you'd get much flavor from it. You'd have to make candy sugar using yeast nutrient (DAP) to address that. Or buy candy sugar from LHBS.

For your IPA's how much hops do you use per 5G batch and how long do you let them mature?

If you want to trouble shoot your water get a case of distilled water and pickup gypsum and calcium chloride from LHBS. Add two teaspoons of each to your case of distilled water for a little bit of mineral and see if that changes things.
 
i think you owe it to yourself to try a batch with RO water. a lot supermarkets have machines where you can get it for $0.50/gallon or less if you bring your own containers.
 
i think you owe it to yourself to try a batch with RO water. a lot supermarkets have machines where you can get it for $0.50/gallon or less if you bring your own containers.

I agree that water is the first place I would look. Just make sure and build up the RO water since you are doing a partial mash. IF you were doing plain extract it wouldn't matter, but the mash needs the salts. You can use Bru'n water to calculate the salt additions

https://sites.google.com/site/brunwater/
 
The water suggestions is a good start. Whenever anyone says they are having flavor issues with ALL of their beers, the first thing that pops into my mind is water.

List one of the recipes along with procedure and maybe we can take a look from that angle.
 
The question that jumps to my mind is are you doing full boils? It is well known that hops utilization change drastically in between full and partial boils, and since it's a flavor issue rather than a body/color/head one I'd look more over the hops than the grain. Do you store your hops for an extended period of time in the freezer? Something you can try to rule out this possibility is making a small AG batch within your means, like a 2.5g or 1g batch. If it still tastes strange, you know your problem is linked to an ingredient rather than the method, maybe hops freshness or water.

Water could also be an issue, best way to know for sure is to test it although in general if it tastes good your beer should come out fine.

I am doing full boils...I have a keggle. I am store more hops in a chest freezer, some of the bags are opened (like only using half the package)....So that certainly could be an issue. I have used hops that were previously opened. Next time, I will only use sealed, unopened packs.
 
Here is my most recent brew.......OG was 1.048, FG 1.010.

The hops taste like a soapy, muddled mess to me.

Brew Method: Partial Mash
Style Name: Kölsch
Boil Time: 60 min
Batch Size: 5.5 gallons (fermentor volume)
Boil Size: 7 gallons
Boil Gravity: 1.036


STATS:
Original Gravity: 1.045
Final Gravity: 1.008
ABV (standard): 4.92%
IBU (tinseth): 75.48
SRM (morey): 3.16

FERMENTABLES:
4 lb - German - Pilsner (48.5%)
3 lb - Dry Malt Extract - Pilsen (36.4%)
1 lb - Dry Malt Extract - Wheat (12.1%)
0.25 lb - German - Vienna (3%)

HOPS:
0.25 oz - Warrior, Type: Pellet, AA: 15.7, Use: Boil for 60 min, IBU: 15.45
1 oz - Hallertau (New Zealand), Type: Pellet, AA: 7.5, Use: Boil for 30 min, IBU: 22.68
1 oz - Cascade, Type: Pellet, AA: 6.3, Use: Boil for 10 min, IBU: 8.99
0.25 oz - Warrior, Type: Pellet, AA: 15.7, Use: Aroma for 10 min, IBU: 5.6
1 oz - Citra, Type: Pellet, AA: 14.5, Use: Aroma for 5 min, IBU: 11.38
1 oz - Galaxy, Type: Pellet, AA: 14.5, Use: Aroma for 5 min, IBU: 11.38
1 oz - Citra, Type: Pellet, AA: 14.5, Use: Aroma for 0 min
1 oz - Galaxy, Type: Pellet, AA: 14.5, Use: Aroma for 0 min

MASH GUIDELINES:
1) Infusion, Temp: 150 F, Time: 90 min, Amount: 1.5 qt

OTHER INGREDIENTS:
1 each - Whirfloc, Time: 10 min, Type: Fining, Use: Boil

YEAST:
White Labs - German Ale/ Kölsch Yeast WLP029
Starter: Yes
Form: Liquid
Attenuation (custom): 83%
Flocculation: Medium
Optimum Temp: 65 - 69 F
Fermentation Temp: 60 F
Pitch Rate: 0.5 (M cells / ml / deg P)
 
It could be a combination of your yeast and those hops. I have noticed a lemony flavor from kolsch yeasts in the past. Mixed with citra/galaxy and I could see it being detergent like.

It could also be the insane IBU's you have going on. Kolsch + a ton of fruity hops is probably strange. Kinda of a whacky brew you have. If i were to do it I would bitter with hallertau to like 10-15IBU and then hit it with citra/galaxy at 15 and 0. aim for low 20's IBU.
 
It could be a combination of your yeast and those hops. I have noticed a lemony flavor from kolsch yeasts in the past. Mixed with citra/galaxy and I could see it being detergent like.

It could also be the insane IBU's you have going on. Kolsch + a ton of fruity hops is probably strange. Kinda of a whacky brew you have. If i were to do it I would bitter with hallertau to like 10-15IBU and then hit it with citra/galaxy at 15 and 0. aim for low 20's IBU.

Thanks Ron....I also got the same flavor from the recipe below, which I entered in the AHA competition..It scored "good"....I wasn't crazy about it, as I got the same hop issue with this one as well.


Brew Method: Partial Mash
Style Name: Imperial IPA
Boil Time: 90 min
Batch Size: 6 gallons (fermentor volume)
Boil Size: 8 gallons
Boil Gravity: 1.045
Efficiency: 70% (brew house)

STATS:
Original Gravity: 1.081
Final Gravity: 1.013
ABV (standard): 8.83%
IBU (tinseth): 161.62
SRM (morey): 7.38

FERMENTABLES:
4.5 lb - American - Pale 2-Row (32.8%)
4 lb - Dry Malt Extract - Light (29.2%)
3 lb - Dry Malt Extract - Light - (late addition) (21.9%)
1 lb - Corn Sugar - Dextrose (7.3%)
0.6 lb - American - Caramel / Crystal 40L (4.4%)
0.6 lb - American - Carapils (Dextrine Malt) (4.4%)

HOPS:
1 oz - Summit, Type: Pellet, AA: 17.5, Use: Boil for 90 min, IBU: 62.11
0.5 oz - Summit, Type: Pellet, AA: 17.15, Use: Boil for 45 min, IBU: 26.12
0.5 oz - Summit, Type: Pellet, AA: 17.5, Use: Boil for 20 min, IBU: 17.58
2 oz - Cascade, Type: Pellet, AA: 6.3, Use: Boil for 15 min, IBU: 20.74
2 oz - Amarillo, Type: Pellet, AA: 10.7, Use: Boil for 10 min, IBU: 25.74
1 oz - Citra, Type: Pellet, AA: 14.1, Use: Boil for 5 min, IBU: 9.33
1 oz - Amarillo, Type: Pellet, AA: 10.7, Use: Boil for 0 min
1 oz - Cascade, Type: Pellet, AA: 6.3, Use: Boil for 0 min
1 oz - Citra, Type: Pellet, AA: 14.1, Use: Boil for 0 min
2 oz - Amarillo, Type: Leaf/Whole, AA: 10.7, Use: Dry Hop for 14 days
2 oz - Citra, Type: Leaf/Whole, AA: 11, Use: Dry Hop for 7 days

MASH GUIDELINES:
1) Infusion, Temp: 151 F, Time: 60 min, Amount: 8 qt, 4.5LBS 2 Row + .6LB 40L + .6LB Carapils

OTHER INGREDIENTS:
1 each - Whirfloc, Time: 10 min, Type: Fining, Use: Boil

YEAST:
White Labs - California Ale Yeast WLP001
Starter: Yes
Form: Liquid
Attenuation (custom): 83.3%
Flocculation: Medium
Optimum Temp: 68 - 73 F
Fermentation Temp: 67 F
Pitch Rate: 0.5 (M cells / ml / deg P)

NOTES:
Starter Recipe:

Making the Yeast Starter Wort:
Quantities for various size yeast starters:
1L: ~1L water, 1 cup Dry Malt Extract, ½ tsp yeast
nutrient
2L: ~2L water, 2 cups Dry Malt Extract, 1 tsp yeast
nutrient
5L: ~5L water, 5 cups Dry Malt Extract, 2 ½ tsp yea
st nutrient


Mash Instructions:

•2 gallons in kettle
•Mash grains in 8 qts (2 gallons) water @ 151 for 60 minutes
•Sparge in 16 qts (4 gallons) 170 water for 30 minutes= 6 gallons
•= 8 gallons total pre-boil volume

•Continuous #2-#3 Summit Hop addition.

•Ferment between 66-68.

•2 Vials WLP001 and big starter.

•Late addition (3LB Light DME) @ 15.
 
Try whirlpool?

Here is my most recent brew.......OG was 1.048, FG 1.010.

The hops taste like a soapy, muddled mess to me.

Brew Method: Partial Mash
Style Name: Kölsch
Boil Time: 60 min
Batch Size: 5.5 gallons (fermentor volume)
Boil Size: 7 gallons
Boil Gravity: 1.036


STATS:
Original Gravity: 1.045
Final Gravity: 1.008
ABV (standard): 4.92%
IBU (tinseth): 75.48
SRM (morey): 3.16

FERMENTABLES:
4 lb - German - Pilsner (48.5%)
3 lb - Dry Malt Extract - Pilsen (36.4%)
1 lb - Dry Malt Extract - Wheat (12.1%)
0.25 lb - German - Vienna (3%)

HOPS:
0.25 oz - Warrior, Type: Pellet, AA: 15.7, Use: Boil for 60 min, IBU: 15.45
1 oz - Hallertau (New Zealand), Type: Pellet, AA: 7.5, Use: Boil for 30 min, IBU: 22.68
1 oz - Cascade, Type: Pellet, AA: 6.3, Use: Boil for 10 min, IBU: 8.99
0.25 oz - Warrior, Type: Pellet, AA: 15.7, Use: Aroma for 10 min, IBU: 5.6
1 oz - Citra, Type: Pellet, AA: 14.5, Use: Aroma for 5 min, IBU: 11.38
1 oz - Galaxy, Type: Pellet, AA: 14.5, Use: Aroma for 5 min, IBU: 11.38
1 oz - Citra, Type: Pellet, AA: 14.5, Use: Aroma for 0 min
1 oz - Galaxy, Type: Pellet, AA: 14.5, Use: Aroma for 0 min

MASH GUIDELINES:
1) Infusion, Temp: 150 F, Time: 90 min, Amount: 1.5 qt

OTHER INGREDIENTS:
1 each - Whirfloc, Time: 10 min, Type: Fining, Use: Boil

YEAST:
White Labs - German Ale/ Kölsch Yeast WLP029
Starter: Yes
Form: Liquid
Attenuation (custom): 83%
Flocculation: Medium
Optimum Temp: 65 - 69 F
Fermentation Temp: 60 F
Pitch Rate: 0.5 (M cells / ml / deg P)
 
I was having the same problem, plenty of bitterness, but no hop flavor or aroma

minerals weren't helping, so I thought I'd check mash pH

last batch I added 1.5% of acid malt and it helped a bit. it was a simple pale ale, 2 oz of hops with no dry hop, but had more hop character than my IPA with 5 oz hops, 2 of which were dry hopped

haven't brewed since, so can't really say this is the fix, but I will be adding acid malt to future batches
 
Your Kolsch recipe has 75 IBU's and your IPA has 160 IBU's.

Huh.

FYI - Kolsch beers are normally about 20-30 IBU's and American IPAs are 40-70 IBU's.

I think it's your taste buds. Your taste buds are largely immune to bitterness.

First, I'd try halving your hop amounts and see what that does.
Second, I'd try using bottled spring water instead of tap water and see what that does.
 
Your Kolsch recipe has 75 IBU's and your IPA has 160 IBU's.

Huh.

FYI - Kolsch beers are normally about 20-30 IBU's and American IPAs are 40-70 IBU's.

I think it's your taste buds. Your taste buds are largely immune to bitterness.

First, I'd try halving your hop amounts and see what that does.
Second, I'd try using bottled spring water instead of tap water and see what that does.
:p

You could try adding gypsum to your brewing water. That is supposed to bring hops up more.

Maybe bittering with something a bit more rough like chinook or columbus would get you where you're going?
 
I have no issues with commercial hoppy beers...I love hops, and can detect the distinct aroma/flavors....this tastes like soap to me.

It's not a yeast/fermentation issue....has to be water and/or bad hops. I need to go back and taste my non-hoppy beers to see if I can detect.


Sent from my iPhone using Home Brew
 
I have no issues with commercial hoppy beers...I love hops, and can detect the distinct aroma/flavors....this tastes like soap to me.

It's not a yeast/fermentation issue....has to be water and/or bad hops. I need to go back and taste my non-hoppy beers to see if I can detect.


Sent from my iPhone using Home Brew

I'm thinking your "non-hoppy beers" are in the normal IPA range. Am I right?
 
are you in a local homebrew club? That's the best way to determine if it's your water, because most likely your neighbors will have the same water as you. Is there a local microbrewery? Give them a shout and see what you can learn about your water chemistry.

Otherwise, try for something over the top. My last dipa had 16 oz of hops in it. If it is literally not possible to get enough hop aroma into your beer (despite your hop addition), then that's really saying something.
 
Water profiles would be a good place to look, make sure your mash pH is in the right range and that your sulfate levels are at 200-300 ppm.

Another thing with hoppy beers in particular is to do everything possible to avoid oxygen pickup, it will definitely mute the hop aromas. If you keg, flush the keg with CO2 before filling and then purge the remaining head space after transfer is complete. This has made a huge difference in the quality and flavor stability of my APA/IPAs.
 
Do you use a pH meter ? Sounds to me like you have a mash pH issue that is throwing everything off from a flavor and aroma perspective. Also, you ought to get a chemical analysis of your water to know what you are working with as far as gypsum and CaCl additions. Invest the money in a good pH meter if you haven't already.


Sent from my iPhone using Home Brew
 
Do you use a pH meter ? Sounds to me like you have a mash pH issue that is throwing everything off from a flavor and aroma perspective. Also, you ought to get a chemical analysis of your water to know what you are working with as far as gypsum and CaCl additions. Invest the money in a good pH meter if you haven't already.


Sent from my iPhone using Home Brew


I do not, but I plan on using bottled water on next brew, maybe some gypsum. I may have been over-sparging.
 
MrEggSandwich,

I think it's good to be moving to bottled water. But you really have to understand what is in that water. Some bottled waters have a very large range of minerals so it is difficult to estimate resulting mash pH.

My suggestion would be to go with distilled water. That way you know what is in there - nothing! And use Bru'n Water to dial in your additions for your grain bill. On my last mash, I was shooting for a pH of 5.4 and I got 5.36 - that the furthest I've been off since using the above.

As an aside,my earliest attempts at IPAs were rough - no aroma, caramelized taste. Just plain bad beer. I started controlling mineral content and being really anal about oxygen exposure after fermentation. Beers are now pretty darn drinkable.

Best of luck!
 
I do not, but I plan on using bottled water on next brew, maybe some gypsum. I may have been over-sparging.

I'm leafing through the Water book but can't seem to find it...but I swear I remember reading that high pH (over 5.8) can attribute both muddled hop flavors and metallic/soapy bitterness characteristics.

Oversparging could be part of this for sure. Lighter colored malts will tend to settle at a pH that is higher than desirable, as high as even 6.0 if the water is not treated properly. The rinsing of the grain bed also causes the pH to rise, so if you started at a borderline high pH then sparging can push it over the top.

The next time you brew a beer based largely on pils or pale malt (minimal crystal), use RO water and add 2% acid malt to the grist. Or, add 4-6g of Gypsum to the mash.

Without a pH meter you're kind of blindly guessing, but this should at least get you in the ballpark.
 
I was having the same problem, plenty of bitterness, but no hop flavor or aroma

minerals weren't helping, so I thought I'd check mash pH

last batch I added 1.5% of acid malt and it helped a bit. it was a dimple pale ale, 2 oz of hops with no dry hop, but had more hop character than my IPA with 5 oz hops, 2 of which were dry hopped

haven't brewed since, so can't really say this is the fix, but I will be adding acid malt to future batches

I was in this same boat. Couldn't make a decent IPA to save my life.

I bought a ph meter and it said my mash was at 5.8.

I started using accidulated malt (acid malt) at about 3-5%, which is a considerable amount. My beers improved, my efficiency improved and hops stood out much much more than they did before. I made an IIPA recently that I considered good.

Now I have some gypsum I don't know what to do with.

Bottom line, get a ph meter at the least and better yet get a water report.

I'd say throwing more hops at the problem usually couldn't hurt but you've gone well beyond throwing more hops at this thing. I'd suggest backing way off on the hops and working back up, slowly.
 
I agree with the distilled water with maybe 2tsp gypsum into the mash and 2tsp into the boil. A pound of acid malt would be helpful as well. (this will bring you into proper ph for most beers).

Don't use open hop bags for a couple brews use fresh 1oz packages only.

Try mashing a little higher, 150 is gonna dry out your beer. 155 with a mashout step would be a good.

Try fermenting a little warmer. 60* is not only outta range for yeast it also suppresses flavor. try a less attenuative strain like wlp002 and ferment warmer like 68*f.

Try using more specialty malts. I love victory and special roast in most of my beers.

Don't compare your beers to commercial beers. They have their process down to a science. You should mention a single commercial beer (instead of comparing to all of them) and try to mimic their technique which may include the use of a hop back and whirlpooling.

Stop aerating your wort, especially if you're using pure 02. This may sound foolish, but this gave me a flavor boost.

Try turning up the temperature in your serving fridge. Cold can suppress flavor.

Give some thought to reducing oxidation in your processes. Both hot and cold side.
 
As far as the hops go, I highly recommend vacuum sealing any partial bags. I buy hops by the pound typically (and with the amounts you're using I'd suggest you do the same) so using an entire bag isn't usually practical. I don't have any issues with my hops that I can tell.

Now having an open bag, that would be an issue as oxygen does degrade hops.
 
I had my LHBS dudes taste a sample today. Feedback was that it may be too much hop particle getting into primary, thus sitting on it too long. Trying to minimize by using hop bags now...
 
The hops taste like a soapy, muddled mess to me.


HOPS:
0.25 oz - Warrior, Type: Pellet, AA: 15.7, Use: Boil for 60 min, IBU: 15.45
1 oz - Hallertau (New Zealand), Type: Pellet, AA: 7.5, Use: Boil for 30 min, IBU: 22.68
1 oz - Cascade, Type: Pellet, AA: 6.3, Use: Boil for 10 min, IBU: 8.99
0.25 oz - Warrior, Type: Pellet, AA: 15.7, Use: Aroma for 10 min, IBU: 5.6
1 oz - Citra, Type: Pellet, AA: 14.5, Use: Aroma for 5 min, IBU: 11.38
1 oz - Galaxy, Type: Pellet, AA: 14.5, Use: Aroma for 5 min, IBU: 11.38
1 oz - Citra, Type: Pellet, AA: 14.5, Use: Aroma for 0 min
1 oz - Galaxy, Type: Pellet, AA: 14.5, Use: Aroma for 0 min


---------------------------

HOPS:
1 oz - Summit, Type: Pellet, AA: 17.5, Use: Boil for 90 min, IBU: 62.11
0.5 oz - Summit, Type: Pellet, AA: 17.15, Use: Boil for 45 min, IBU: 26.12
0.5 oz - Summit, Type: Pellet, AA: 17.5, Use: Boil for 20 min, IBU: 17.58
2 oz - Cascade, Type: Pellet, AA: 6.3, Use: Boil for 15 min, IBU: 20.74
2 oz - Amarillo, Type: Pellet, AA: 10.7, Use: Boil for 10 min, IBU: 25.74
1 oz - Citra, Type: Pellet, AA: 14.1, Use: Boil for 5 min, IBU: 9.33
1 oz - Amarillo, Type: Pellet, AA: 10.7, Use: Boil for 0 min
1 oz - Cascade, Type: Pellet, AA: 6.3, Use: Boil for 0 min
1 oz - Citra, Type: Pellet, AA: 14.1, Use: Boil for 0 min
2 oz - Amarillo, Type: Leaf/Whole, AA: 10.7, Use: Dry Hop for 14 days
2 oz - Citra, Type: Leaf/Whole, AA: 11, Use: Dry Hop for 7 days

6.5 oz of 5 different types
14 oz of 4 different types


I'd be surprised if this level of hopping in a 5G batch doesn't come out as a muddled mess.

Try simplifying your recipes. One bittering hop, two flavor/aroma at most.
 
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