Which is better: pre-chiller/immersion chiller or the full length immersion chiller?

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mtnagel

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Let say I have 50' copper tubing. Which is better:

1) One 50' immersion chiller or
2) Cutting into into two sections to have a pre-chiller and an immersion chiller. For example a 30'-35' immersion chiller and a 15'-20' pre-chiller that will go into ice water to cool the tap water before going into the longer section of immersion chiller in my beer

I hadn't really thought about it and it seems like most people just go with the longer immersion chiller without the pre-chiller, but I borrowed a friends who did the latter option and it got me thinking which would be better.

Let's assume my water is 40's-50's in the winter and maybe low to mid 60's in the summer (not really sure; never measured it). Based on those estimates, my gut tells me it would be better to have option 2 in the summer, but it probably wouldn't matter much in the winter. But curious what everyone thinks.
 
If your water is really that cold, thank the beer gods.

My tap is as low as 58 in the winter, up to the low 70s in the summer.

The warmer the ground water, the more effective the pre-chiller.
 
As a Florida brewer, I'm cursed with warm tap water much of the year. My gut says you'd be better off with the 50' immersion most of the year. If you go with the pre-chiller option, don't bother with the ice water until your wort is down below about 90 degrees. It doesn't help much when the wort is hot anyway. As the temperature differential becomes smaller, it definitely helps. I use a plate chiller and immersion pre-chiller ice water set up after WAAAAY to many long chill times....
 
Wow, I'm terrible at estimating water temperatures apparently because I just measured the water at work and it's 73F. I don't even know how that's possible because it's been barely that warm air temperatures here, so I don't see how it's warm. I know it's definitely colder in the winter, but not sure how low now. So maybe a pre-chiller would be better for those last 30 degrees or so.
 
Do you work in a fairly large building? You could be measuring the temp of water that's been inside the building long enough to be room temp...
 
Yes, very large. Great point. Now I need to measure my home temp.

It's all about temperature differential. Almost any ground water will be way cooler than freshly boiled wort. A pre-chiller doesn't make much difference when the temps are high. But as they converge the rate of cooling slows. Once the differential is 20 degrees or less it's very slow. You should be fine in Cincy most of the year but it gets pretty toasty there in the summer. You may find it difficult to chill much below 80 which is pretty high for pitching yeast. A pre-chiller type setup can get you that extra 20 degrees to get down into the 60's. Do you ferment in a fridge or other temperature controlled space? Temperature control is really the biggest factor in making great beer at home...

:mug:
 
I didn't see a whole lot of difference using my pre-chiller, which is a repurposed Hayden 457 oil cooler in a 6 gallon bucket of ice.

What worked far better for me, is to run normal tap water until around the 100-110 degree mark, then quick disconnect the input of the IC onto a small sump pump and the IC return line into the same ice bucket. Very fast cooling after that.

Good luck.
 
Do you ferment in a fridge or other temperature controlled space? Temperature control is really the biggest factor in making great beer at home...
Yes, well at least I'm trying to. For the last few beers I've been using a water bath with an aquarium heater to maintain temperatures. It seemed to work well once I got everything all dialed in. Soon my basement will be getting hotter so I will do the swamp cooler thing. Not ideal, but I'm not ready to get a temp controlled chamber quite yet.

I didn't see a whole lot of difference using my pre-chiller, which is a repurposed Hayden 457 oil cooler in a 6 gallon bucket of ice.

What worked far better for me, is to run normal tap water until around the 100-110 degree mark, then quick disconnect the input of the IC onto a small sump pump and the IC return line into the same ice bucket. Very fast cooling after that.

Good luck.
Good idea. I'm seeing $20 pumps on Amazon. Reviews seem to indicate it works well for cooling beer. Man, that is always something else to buy isn't there? :)
 
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I use a 25' IC. While my boil is going I clean out my cooler/MLT and use it as my water reservoir for my IC. I bought one of these to pump the water through my IC (can't attach it to my sink).

image-3694090117.jpg

My tap water runs about 70*. Once my wort gets down to about 110* I dump 10# of ice in the cooler with the water. Most of the time 10# of ice is enough to get the wort down to pitching temp (65-68*), but I've never needed more than 20#. I constantly swirl and plunge the IC up and down while I'm cooling and I can usually cool in 15-20min.
 
Yes, well at least I'm trying to. For the last few beers I've been using a water bath with an aquarium heater to maintain temperatures. It seemed to work well once I got everything all dialed in. Soon my basement will be getting hotter so I will do the swamp cooler thing. Not ideal, but I'm not ready to get a temp controlled chamber quite yet.

Good idea. I'm seeing $20 pumps on Amazon. Reviews seem to indicate it works well for cooling beer. Man, that is always something else to buy isn't there? :)

Have you done any reading about "no chill" brewing?
 
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I didn't see a whole lot of difference using my pre-chiller, which is a repurposed Hayden 457 oil cooler in a 6 gallon bucket of ice.

What worked far better for me, is to run normal tap water until around the 100-110 degree mark, then quick disconnect the input of the IC onto a small sump pump and the IC return line into the same ice bucket. Very fast cooling after that.

Good luck.

I am in Xenia, OH, and the ground water temps are in the low 50s in the winter and in the 70s in the summer. When I was using an IC, that was the process I used. Cool with straight hose water until temps were around 110F then switch to pumping ice water through the IC. I could get temps down into the 60s with no problem. Now, I use a plate chiller. As the weather warms, I will be adding a pre-chiller to cool the water going through the plate chiller. Good luck.:mug:
 
Have you done any reading about "no chill" brewing?
I have. It is intriguing, I just haven't tried it yet.

I just remember when I first started out about 2 years ago I read that you want to cool it down as quickly as possible. Now I'm reading about 30 min hop stands and no chill. It's confusing sometimes.
 
Has anyone ever used a worm coil (think distilling) to drop the final temperature?

Pumping ice water through the coil is fine, but I have an extra chiller that I picked up with some other items from craigslist. I'm thinking about putting both chillers into the boiling wort to sanitize and then move the 2nd into an ice bath. Then use the 1st chiller to drop the temperature as low as it will go and then draining the wort through a 2nd coil and into the fermenter.
 
I have found that even with a shorter IC coil the water temp coming out is just about the same as the wort temp, so having a longer coil using the same volume of water wouldn't really get you anything (i.e. the last half of the coil has no temp difference, so provides no cooling). So you are better off with a short, fat coil (1/2 inch or more) or making two 25 foot coils in parallel to carry more water with more surface contact. That's what I've got now and it's great.
 
I say throw that **** in a hose and make a counter flow chiller. I used mine the other day and with tap water from my spigot in the lower fifties, my 200 degree water was hitting my carboy at 60 degrees. I actually had to turn the space heater on in my fermentor to bring it up to 68 before I pitched. If u have cold water from ur spigot like I do, ur gonna use a lot less water then an immersion chiller.
 
Living in Hawaii I have to battle year round 70+ tap water. My method around this currently is to use a pre chiller. I don't dunk the pre-chiller into my ice bath until I hit the 90's though. Then it is all about moving both the pre chiller and the IC. I've been able to cool my wort in about 30-40 minutes max. The other thing I do is flow control on the tap. I run the water slow until I hit 150 speed it up until 100 then slow it down again when I drop the pre chiller in.

One thing I have been thinking of doing is getting a submersible pump to pump ice water into my chiller instead as this would be much cooler, and more efficient since I could re-circulate the water.
 
That does seem like it would be better...

But, having said that, I keep thinking of all the variables that come into play: time to cool batch (and if it's even important), water usage, energy usage, simplicity vs complexity, my head spins :)

My current method is making a few trays of ice, freezing 1-2 gallons of water in a bucket, and freezing all my reusable freezer packs and using my utility tub and water to make an ice bath. I've been reusing the water in my washing machine. So I'm using some water (though most is being reused) and some energy to freeze the water to ice, but that's about it. It's pretty simple and takes maybe 30-40 mins (honestly haven't measured). It's boring standing there and agitating the wort and bath water, but it's easy and works.

The reason I starting thinking about this was that I was brewing outside for National Home Brew Day, so I needed something I could use outside so I borrowed my friend's chiller. It was a big pain in the butt and took longer than my current method (long story, but it was the chiller's fault and it's construction and I'm sure I could make a better one that wouldn't be a pain and would be faster). But it allowed me to brew out.

So, do I really need a chiller? Assuming that I don't need to brew outside and assuming I don't need to chill any faster (and the no chill method and long hop stands people do make it seem like I don't), then it seems like I wouldn't be gaining much from it if the only advantage is I chill a little faster. It has a big up front cost (copper and pond pump if I went that way). It's more complex and more likely to fail. I still have to make ice (if I get the pond pump). The pond pump needs energy to run.

So what am I missing?
 
So, do I really need a chiller? Assuming that I don't need to brew outside and assuming I don't need to chill any faster (and the no chill method and long hop stands people do make it seem like I don't), then it seems like I wouldn't be gaining much from it if the only advantage is I chill a little faster. It has a big up front cost (copper and pond pump if I went that way). It's more complex and more likely to fail. I still have to make ice (if I get the pond pump). The pond pump needs energy to run.

So what am I missing?

You really don't need most homebrewing gadgets. But a chiller adds the convenience of saving time and potentially better beer. Many gadgets do one or the other, so I think a chiller pays for itself in a way. My plate chiller and recirculating immersion chiller combo can knock down 6 gallons to 68 in less than 20 minutes with Florida ground water. I get a nice "cold break" which means less trub, and the reduced contact time with the air means less exposure to potential infection. Everyone has different priorities when they brew, but if you don't mind spending a few bucks to save time and reduce the chances of infection, chillers are a great investment...
 
I've been doing no-chill for the last four years and it's awesome! That said, my favorite way to chill is to connect my hose to the "in" side of a keg full of ice, then connect the "out" side to my chiller.

You could make it even colder by adding salt to the ice (think old-fashioned ice cream maker), but I've heard that salt and stainless steel don't get along, so I've never tried it.
 
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