Graff (Malty, slightly hopped cider)

Ok, I am going to attempt something following most of this recipe next weekend, but would like to, if possible, draw from the odds and ends I have as "leftovers" from my last few brews, and want some advice...

First, DME:

I have 1 lb of Briess Extra Light DME and 2 lbs of Briess Wheat DME... I'm not too worried about the cloudiness from wheat... Should I go 1 lb and 1 lb? Should I use the 2 lb of wheat? Should I spend the $5-6 and buy another pound of DME at the LHBS?

If I use the wheat DME will that add the head retention, or do I still need the torrified wheat?

Next, if I need the torrified wheat, can some of the carapils that I have be used as a substitute?

As far as the crystal malt, I have a half pound each of Crystal 20L and Special B... since I'm planning to use Food Lion 100% apple juice, (i.e. store brand) and the suggestion was to use Crystal 120L... would 6 oz of Special B and 2 oz of 20L work?

Last question: Yeast... I have several jars of washed WLP300 hefeweizen... or should grab a packet of US-05?

Last last question, if I use all the wheat DME and the WLP300, making it a German Graff, would that make it Mrs. Agassi... aka Steffi Graff?

Sorry, one more question... given the above, if you had supplies of Magnum, Willamette, and Amarillo hops, which would you use?

I'm leaning toward a 1/4 oz of Magnum (10% AA) since it bitters without imparting much flavor...

PorterIdontknowher said:

Sorry, one more question... given the above, if you had supplies of Magnum, Willamette, and Amarillo hops, which would you use?

I'm leaning toward a 1/4 oz of Magnum (10% AA) since it bitters without imparting much flavor...

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I think I'd rather use a hop that flavors without imparting much bitterness.

klyph said:

I think I'd rather use a hop that flavors without imparting much bitterness.

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I thought the idea was to offset the sweetness of the malt without overpowering with flavor... so if not magnum, then earthy or citrus?

I think a citrusy hop would compliment the apple nicely.

Put the Newly Weds on the boat yesterday. Everything is comming back to a regular pace. This morning I did the Graff (5 gallons). The one thing I screwed up on was no light DME. So I figured 1 lb. 10 oz. of Amber. If I am low on alcohol, it will probably be better for my marriage. I used Target this time, 6% so that is better than last time. I am thinking of a way to get the temp down for fermenting. I don't have a stick-on temp gauge, but I figure in my Wet Vac bucket with a few pieces of ice would be at least closer to the mark than room temp (room temp is how I did it last time).

First ten gallons was a blast, thanks BrandonO

And Cheers

I have done three brews, none of which are beer. So can somebody enlighten me as to what these additional ingredients do for the drink? I'd like to try this as I have found one of my ciders to be...fall flat on your face flat and I don't want to wait for it to age out. This sounds like a good alternative to waiting to age. From what I gather the DME will give me that body. Not sure what the torrified wheat does. And the hops just gives me a hint of flavor?

Also anybody have a quick link to discussions about different types of hops and DME? Checked out norther brewer website and kinda got lost in all the variety. Thanks!

Edit:What's Crystal 60L?

Bush_84 said:

Not sure what the torrified wheat does.

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It promotes head retention

And the hops just gives me a hint of flavor?

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The hops balance the sweetness

Edit:What's Crystal 60L?

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It's malted barley roasted to 60 Lovibond.

http://brewwiki.com/index.php/Lovibond

Just wanted to extend a public THANK YOU to Brandon O for his recipe. I made a variant of it and entered it into the 2010 National Homebrew Competition and pulled a 2nd place win in the first round judging.

The main change I made was the proportion of malts. I did not have 120 and use some 150 crystal. I was using cheap frozen concentrate and wanted to balance the tart finish.

I also did not use torrified wheat. I believe I used Carapils.

The entry is over a year old and getting better as it ages. Still has a nice balance with the hop bitterness.

This sounds like an excellent recipe, I just have a couple of questions before I brew this up.

I definitely prefer hoppy beer over beer with a strong malty flavor. Would adding more hops to this recipe ruin the balance and taste too hoppy, even to someone who enjoys a bitter IPA?

I am a fan of cascade hops and was planning on using them but I read some mixed reviews in this thread. Has anyone found that they add too much of a citrus flavor to the cider?

Thanks, can't wait to make this!

making a 1 gal batch of this. I'm guessing it will be TASTY.

I'm using special B instead of crystal.

I'm using the torrefied wheat, but I don't see how it will do anything since it's not being mashed. I guess the point isn't to convert the starches from the small amount of it.

brewinginct said:

This sounds like an excellent recipe, I just have a couple of questions before I brew this up.

I definitely prefer hoppy beer over beer with a strong malty flavor. Would adding more hops to this recipe ruin the balance and taste too hoppy, even to someone who enjoys a bitter IPA?

I am a fan of cascade hops and was planning on using them but I read some mixed reviews in this thread. Has anyone found that they add too much of a citrus flavor to the cider?

Thanks, can't wait to make this!

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Hopefully the citrusy works... I brewed it a week ago using 3/8oz of Amarillo. If the grapefruit-apple doesn't work, I guess I can let it sit and wait for the hops to fade a bit.

I'm kind of surprised... I used a starter with US-05 made from a previous batch and it is still bubbling away steadily 7 days later with a healthy krausen. Not really a worry, but the beer that I had made with US-05 the krausen was gone in about 3 days and signs of fermentation were pretty much done in a week...

I did a secondary for my first batch (out of necessity, I needed my primary). The graff was crystal clear at bottling, but after 2 weeks in the bottle there is zero carbonation. Did I eff myself? There was definitely a little bit of yeast on the bottom of the bottle, but I'm used to my beers being reasonably carbed (albeit very green) after a week.

I used nottingham, and followed the original recipe. Carbed with .75 cups of dextrose.

Bottled up my first batch using 120L. Wow, the sample tasted great, a lot sweeter than when using 60L. Can't wait 3 weeks now!

atromic said:

I did a secondary for my first batch (out of necessity, I needed my primary). The graff was crystal clear at bottling, but after 2 weeks in the bottle there is zero carbonation. Did I eff myself? There was definitely a little bit of yeast on the bottom of the bottle, but I'm used to my beers being reasonably carbed (albeit very green) after a week.

I used nottingham, and followed the original recipe. Carbed with .75 cups of dextrose.

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I would wait another week, if it gets ANY more carbonated, it just needs more time. If not, there are always those carb pills (I would use half in each bottle and re-cap then store outside in case they go off like grenades).

Mine was flat in March and is more carbonated now. It also has a little bit of a head as well. Time matters.

PorterIdontknowher said:

Hopefully the citrusy works... I brewed it a week ago using 3/8oz of Amarillo. If the grapefruit-apple doesn't work, I guess I can let it sit and wait for the hops to fade a bit.

I'm kind of surprised... I used a starter with US-05 made from a previous batch and it is still bubbling away steadily 7 days later with a healthy krausen. Not really a worry, but the beer that I had made with US-05 the krausen was gone in about 3 days and signs of fermentation were pretty much done in a week...

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Still a little activity after 2 weeks... checked the specific gravity... down from 1.055 to 1.007... the sample tasted awesome...

I used 4 oz special B and 4 oz of crystal 20...
on the hop side I put in 1/4oz Amarillo @30min and 1/8oz Amarillo at 5min...

BrandonO, I got it down now! My second batch turned out so much better than the first. Just went into keg two days ago, the sample was more subtle in the hop area. Very good. Thanks again

I just bottled today after 10 days in the primary, FG was 1.006, yeast was Nottingham. I hope that it was done fermenting! I just couldn't wait and there was no activity for the last few days, as well as pretty good clarity of the wort.

Hello board (first post here).

I just made my first batch of this. I replaced one gallon of juice with water to throttle back on the alcohol, and I added pectic enzyme to clear the apple juice. I wiped the condensation from the glass and stuck a fork behind it to try to illustrate how well the enzyme works.

Like everyone else says, this is a crowd pleaser. Mine is like drinking sour apple warheads.

I brewed this tonight slightly modified:

2lbs amber DME
8oz Crystal 120L
0.3oz Cascade
0.2oz Perle

Question... I didn't realize until I got home that my apple juice was in 3 liter containers, not 1 gallon. That left me with only 4.5 gallons in the primary. I am thinking about dumping more apple juice in once I get to vigorous fermentation to get 5.25 gallons in primary for a full batch. Anybody see a problem with this?

Me my second batch of this yesterday. Used 120L since it’s what I had on hand. The wort from the 120L was like syrup after the boil! Everything smelled great going into the fermenter. One issue I had is that the only yeast I had was a old smack pack that I activated for 24 hrs then couldn’t pitch for other reasons so it sat swelled unopened in my fridge for the past month. I did put it in a quart starter the night before and just pitched the entire starter so I ended up with almost a full 6 gallons in the fermenter. I am sure it will work out just fine in the end.

Well batch number one turned out pretty good, so i am making another batch.

This time i am going to try to make a dark cider... a carmel apple cider, if you will.

using 1 pound of crystal 120 and one pound of crystal 60 as well as two pounds of amber DME. along with some older fuggle hops, this should be a-okay.

made my first batch today pitched the yeast around 2 pm its 11 pm just got home and bubbling already!

I also made this today, but all I had was S-04, hopefully it turns out nice and fruity. Hahaha. The SWMBO will love it!

I don't want to read 80 pages of posts and search didn't find it for me.

I'm kegging this tonight. How many volumes do you shoot for with this stuff?

Update on mine as it's been awhile.

Starting drinking it more, as it's been sitting on my kitchen work service for awhile now and my wifes nagging about it. I have to say it's come along way since I last posted, the flavour is really enjoyable and i can now see myself having a couple or more a day. I think I should do another batch!!!

Many thanks to those who helped me through-out my first attempt.

I'm liking the 120L version a lot. Not as sour, I think the IBUs could use a slight bump to match the sweetness increase though.

chuckjaxfl said:

Hello board (first post here).

I just made my first batch of this. I replaced one gallon of juice with water to throttle back on the alcohol, and I added pectic enzyme to clear the apple juice. I wiped the condensation from the glass and stuck a fork behind it to try to illustrate how well the enzyme works.

Like everyone else says, this is a crowd pleaser. Mine is like drinking sour apple warheads.

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Pectic sure makes it sellable! I will try it next time, but will stay with the alcohol content of the full four gallons of apple juice. I Know now how to enjoy it....very carefully! I give a warning to anyone who braves more than a pint of this "Easy Going Sour Apple WarHead."


"Easy Going Sour Apple WarHead."= BrandonO's Graff


I hope that I am not killing the nutrient value by dropping out the haze.:cross:

5.5g batch - mine with 4.5 gallons of cheapo store brand juice, 2 lbs DME, 120L, few ounces of flaked wheat, cascade and hefe wyeast 3068 is delicious! got the juice for another batch thinking of upping the IBUs a bit more and adding some special B ontop of the 120L for a little more depth and interest.

BTW mine is pretty clear - did a primary right to bottles

this is a great CHEAP! summer drinker!!

just out of curiosity using the base recipe without reading through 79 pages what wuld the abv be for a 5 gal batch of this stuff?im dont know if i want it has strong has ive read it may be.

Stuntmantoo said:

I would wait another week, if it gets ANY more carbonated, it just needs more time. If not, there are always those carb pills (I would use half in each bottle and re-cap then store outside in case they go off like grenades).

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Wow, what a difference a couple weeks make! I popped a 4 week old bottle last weekend and it was well on it's way to being carbonated. It had a decent amount of head to it, and the flavors have started to balance and compliment each other nicely.

This one will def be a house staple from now on. Next time I'm giving it a boost with some brown sugar... How high can I push the abv before it starts to negatively affect the flavor?

Mine came in at 6.9% and you can barely taste the alcohol.

atromic said:

Wow, what a difference a couple weeks make! I popped a 4 week old bottle last weekend and it was well on it's way to being carbonated. It had a decent amount of head to it, and the flavors have started to balance and compliment each other nicely.

This one will def be a house staple from now on. Next time I'm giving it a boost with some brown sugar... How high can I push the abv before it starts to negatively affect the flavor?

Mine came in at 6.9% and you can barely taste the alcohol.

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you followed the recipe and it came out at 6.9%?what was your og and what was your fg ?

Anyone? Those that keg, what pressure do you set and forget at. I'm thinking around 15 PSI?

I set my regulator at 9 psi at about 40-42 degrees. not sure how many volumes this is, but it seems to give me nice head, without going overboard.

I have 5-foot long - 3/16" diameter liquid lines.

15 sounds too high, unless you are serving at a warmer temp.

So this recipe is definitely interesting and I think I'm going to give it a try. We already have a beer lined up for this weekends brew, so it'll be 2 weeks before I can brew the graff. Coincidentally, we'll be bottling a Bells Two Hearted clone that some day. It had 5 oz. of centennial 9%+ hops in it total and i'm using a irish red ale yeast from wyeast (IIRC).

Could I skip on the hop boil and just pitch on the yeast cake, or should I boil hops anyway? I've never reused a yeast cake or brewed cider, I don't know what kind of influence it could have. Any advice would be appreciated.

Well, I tasted my batch that I made...

4 gal Food Lion Apple Juice
1 lb Extra Light DME
1 lb Briess Bavarian Wheat DME
4 oz Special B (145L)
4 oz Crystal 20L
2 oz Muntons Carapils (20L)

1/4oz Amarillo (9.1%) @30min
1/8oz Amarillo @5min

US-05

Topped up to a little over 5 gal...

3 weeks in primary, 1 week in bottles so far.

The verdict: I like it. Its a nice dark golden "cider" color, a little cloudy from the wheat and that it probably needs to settle in the bottles a little... The flavor is a little tart, but the grapefruit of the amarillo mixes in well. I used the mix of Special B and Crystal 20 because it was what I had on hand.

Changes for next time... I kind of like the tartness, and it is pretty good as is, but I'd be really tempted to replace the Crystal 20 with Honey Malt. I've made an Amarillo-Wheat IPA with a bunch of honey malt and I think the flavor would mix in very nicely. If not, I would probably still replace the Crystal 20 with a darker Crystal... perhaps all Special B...

Loved the quick brewing time...

change the 20l to 120L it needs the dark malts IMO...

Tasted my first bottle of Graff... yes, it's young, I couldn't wait It's about a month since it was brewed, 1wk in the bottle so far.

Tastes very good, even with the tartness of young cider present. Based on this 1gal test brew, I am most likely going to do a full batch, possibly with a little more hops and a little more malt.

Awesome recipe...

So mine has been bubbling away for four weeks now. I could check the og and don't want to check fg until it stops bubbling as I feel there is no point. Does this seem too long?