Closed-system pressurized fermentation technique!

I'm looking to get a flow meter for the O2 injection. It's between these two:

digital flow meter

Dwyer - VFA-2

Seemed like most people were saying you need an O2 welding tank, regulator, and flow meter. Looks like you can hook one of these up to your HD o2 tank as they both have npt connections. I know HD tanks are expensive in the long run, but for now I don't have the upfront to invest in a welding tank, etc.

I use the VFA2, with a small portable O2 tank (think the size of a propane torch). I think the tank costs about $9, and I get about 4 10g brews from it.

I'm going to get the dwyer. People have some concerns about the other one being able to handle the low flow rate and even about oil contamination, as I guess the other is for paintball use.

I have run into a hurdle building my pressure relief system.

My pressure gauge and relief valve are connected to a 1/4'' NPT Tee.

I am using ball lock kegs and I had had the typical issue of having to connect the male flare on the QD to the female 1/4'' NPT. I thought I had it solved in the purchase of something like this:





But the female flare is inverted.

Question is: Can I drill out the inverted piece, wrap the male flare in teflon, screw the 2 pieces together and call it good?





Cheers!

I'm not sure what you are planning but here's another way.

Use a swivel female flare fitting like this from your gas connector. (I'm assuming you have a 1/4" MFL).


Then use a flare to 1/4" npt fitting like this.



I got both of those fittings from midwestsupplies.com

I use a 1/4" flared tailpiece for mine since I was using a sanke coupler, but the same principal works with a your corny connector.



Here's a shot of my spund valve in action.



Hope that helps. Good luck.

lagavulin said:

I have run into a hurdle building my pressure relief system.

Click to expand...

If I remember right (sorry haven't used cornies in a while) the male threads the posts go on are 1/4". Can't you just screw your tee to it directly, or find a way to attach it to the ball lock connector threaded piece the nipple is attached to?

Dgonza9 said:

I use a 1/4" flared tailpiece for mine since I was using a sanke coupler, but the same principal works with a your corny connector.

Hope that helps. Good luck.

Click to expand...

That's an awfully big piece of equipment. It look like it might have potential for leaking due to the way it sticks out unsupported. This is how all of mine have looked.


and another shot...


Here's the thing on my old tap connector.


and another view of it.


The white piece is nylon I had made into a threaded tailpiece (the stainless ones were more costly than having 4 of these made. I was worried about this construction being too heavy for the fitting, so I could never have trusted the one you built for myself. The only difference with the one I use now (sorry no pics of it) is the relief valve and a fluid filled gauge. This older brass one only controls up to 20 psi, so I needed a higher psi one to carbonate with.

I am glad it is working well for you and not leaking. The problem with using flared fittings is that they don't work as well as tapered thread fittings in the tee.

Thanks for your post Dgonza9, I was hoping I could get around using the female swivels and flare to NPT nipple -- but it may be my only option.

If I remember right (sorry haven't used cornies in a while) the male threads the posts go on are 1/4". Can't you just screw your tee to it directly, or find a way to attach it to the ball lock connector threaded piece the nipple is attached to?
- WortMonger -

Click to expand...

Didn't think about screwing the tee directly onto the post - I'll give it a look, but it is less than optimal. I'd like the convenience of the QD and the ability to charge the keg in the closed system.

I did drill out the female inverted flare to male NPT adapter last night. And it leaked. I suppose a male flare does need a female flare to form a union...

May end up grabbing some tubing, a couple barbed fittings and swivel nuts - and call it. Though I really wanted to keep this thing compact with as little chance as possible for leaks. WortMonger your device is awesome - absolute minimum connections.

If anyone knows where I could pick up a female 1/4'' flare to male 1/4'' NPT adapter please shoot me a PM.


Cheers!

That's an awfully big piece of equipment. It look like it might have potential for leaking due to the way it sticks out unsupported. This is how all of mine have looked.








Those swivel flares are a bit flimsy. I had two and one did break while I was tightening everything. However, they don't seem to be in any danger of needing support in my opinion. Once you have them connected it's pretty solid. I don't think it's even a concern. It's tighting everything with the swivel flare that can stress them. Here's the final configuration of my spund valve. On the right I have a quick connect for CO2 input.



I do admire how simple yours is Wortmonger. How does one go about getting a piece milled for him?

I couldn't find a female flare fitting to male npt 1/4". Hence the swivel nut.

I also agree on the more expensive pressure release valve. I wound up getting the $30 one it is world's better.

Go to a beer drinking machinist! LOL. They will give you a good break on the price and after you pay them, and bring them beer, they will really help you in the future.

I really like the idea of the quick connect for adding gas to start off the ferment, then again I have never had any trouble just letting the yeast pressure it up.

lamarguy,

I was wondering where you got your filter stuff, primarily the actual filter and the cartridges. I know you mentioned you were able to clean them and use again which is what I was looking to do.

Also, if my dip tube is a tad too low and picks up some sediment, I assume a filter like that would take care of that unless there was a clog or something.

humann_brewing said:

I was wondering where you got your filter stuff, primarily the actual filter and the cartridges. I know you mentioned you were able to clean them and use again which is what I was looking to do.

Click to expand...

I recently posted the parts here.

I back-flush and soak the filters in PBW overnight. Prior to use, I pasteurize the filter in 162F water for 15 minutes. Fill the canister with ~165F water and dunk the filter. Just don't heat it beyond ~170F or it may deform.

Pasteurization will kill any wild yeast and/or bacteria that may be on or inside the filter media. StarSan is great for smooth surfaces but doesn't work well on porous media. Heat is your friend.

humann_brewing said:

Also, if my dip tube is a tad too low and picks up some sediment, I assume a filter like that would take care of that unless there was a clog or something.

Click to expand...

Pleated filters have a lot of surface area and are difficult to plug. So, unless you're picking up most of the yeast mass, you'll be fine.

It's a beautiful thing to watch a cold-crashed beer become instantly crystal clear with a 1 micron (absolute) filter.

lamarguy said:

I recently posted the parts here.

I back-flush and soak the filters in PBW overnight. Prior to use, I pasteurize the filter in 162F water for 15 minutes. Fill the canister with ~165F water and dunk the filter. Just don't heat it beyond ~170F or it may deform.

Pasteurization will kill any wild yeast and/or bacteria that may be on or inside the filter media. StarSan is great for smooth surfaces but doesn't work well on porous media. Heat is your friend.



Pleated filters have a lot of surface area and are difficult to plug. So, unless you're picking up most of the yeast mass, you'll be fine.

It's a beautiful thing to watch a cold-crashed beer become instantly crystal clear with a 1 micron (absolute) filter.

Click to expand...

very nice and thanks. So a 1 micron for absolute and 5 if you just want most of it?

I am guessing with a good crash cool there wouldn't be much anyways.

humann_brewing said:

very nice and thanks. So a 1 micron for absolute and 5 if you just want most of it?

Click to expand...

I filter "bright" beers (e.g., pilsner) with a 1 micron and everything else with a 5 micron. And, yes, I highly recommend you crash cool before filtering to settle most of the yeast and to avoid any foaming.

lamarguy said:

I filter "bright" beers (e.g., pilsner) with a 1 micron and everything else with a 5 micron. And, yes, I highly recommend you crash cool before filtering to settle most of the yeast and to avoid any foaming.

Click to expand...

that's the plan, now I just need to find a cheep upright freezer on CL

I, too am without the ability to crash cool right now. Any benefit to the filter for those of us that can't crash cool? Or is that asking too much?

Cheers.

Dgonza9 said:

I, too am without the ability to crash cool right now. Any benefit to the filter for those of us that can't crash cool? Or is that asking too much?

Cheers.

Click to expand...

well winter is coming, how cold is it outside?

I have a chest freezer but it is hard to stick a 36" tall keg in it and close the lid, plus I don't want to lift the thing in there since I don't brew anywhere close to where the freezer is.

lamarguy, I was checking out those filters and they say 140*F as max temperature. I guess you haven't seen any warping or anything bad, but I was curious. I would love to find a stainless cartridge so I could autoclave it. It would be worth the extra cost to be able to reuse it indefinitely. Anyone know if they actually make a stainless pleated filter that look like the ones commonly used?

WortMonger said:

lamarguy, I was checking out those filters and they say 140*F as max temperature.

Click to expand...

Ya, they're rated for up to 140F under pressure. They may survive an autoclave, since they're primarily made of polypropylene, but I'll let you be the first to test it.

Here are two filters from the same company that will definitely survive an autoclave (100% poly):

Flow-Max HP 2.5" x 9.75" 1 Micron $31.25

Flow-Max HP 2.5" x 9.75" 5 Micron $25.19

I have the Brewers Hardware kit, but am thinking of adding another spunding valve to my arsenal of fermentation tools

I recently moved most of my non-kegerator co2 connections to QD's. I made some patch cords with the various ends ( 1/4 female flare for corny & sankey, a triclamp for system purging, and some others ) , Best money I've spent in a long time !

Made the order today

1 1 Each 3847K12
Multipurpose Gauge +/-2% Mid-Scale Accuracy 1-1/2" Dial, 1/8" NPT Male Bottom, 0 - 30 PSI (Same as 3847K71)
today
$9.63 $9.63 ?
2 1 Each 99045K44
Polysulfone Adjustable Relief Valve 1/8" NPT Female, Pressure-Maintaining, 0.5-30 PSI (Same as 99045K11)
today
$30.13 $30.13 ?
6 1 Each 9171K31
Precision Thrd HI-Pressure Brass Pipe Fitting 1/8" Pipe Size, Tee, Fem X Fem X Male, 2900 PSI
today
$16.15 $16.15 ?
7 1 Each 5350K31
Zinc-Plated Steel Barbed Hose Fitting Std-Wall Adapter, 1/4" Hose ID X 1/8" NPT Male Pipe
today
$1.61 $1.61 ?


combine these with a gas QD with a barb and some beverage hose and I should be good minus the upright freezer of course.

humann_brewing said:

Made the order today

1 1 Each 3847K12
Multipurpose Gauge +/-2% Mid-Scale Accuracy 1-1/2" Dial, 1/8" NPT Male Bottom, 0 - 30 PSI (Same as 3847K71)
today
$9.63 $9.63 ?
2 1 Each 99045K44
Polysulfone Adjustable Relief Valve 1/8" NPT Female, Pressure-Maintaining, 0.5-30 PSI (Same as 99045K11)
today
$30.13 $30.13 ?
6 1 Each 9171K31
Precision Thrd HI-Pressure Brass Pipe Fitting 1/8" Pipe Size, Tee, Fem X Fem X Male, 2900 PSI
today
$16.15 $16.15 ?
7 1 Each 5350K31
Zinc-Plated Steel Barbed Hose Fitting Std-Wall Adapter, 1/4" Hose ID X 1/8" NPT Male Pipe
today
$1.61 $1.61 ?


combine these with a gas QD with a barb and some beverage hose and I should be good minus the upright freezer of course.

Click to expand...

You'll be very glad you got the more expensive relief valve.

The relief valve is sweet, but I wouldn't be able to carbonate at 75*F with it. This lager got up to 36 psi at 75*F. I do wish they made a cheaper digital adjustable back-pressure relief valve. That is what I really want!!!

Wow, 60,000+ views of this thread now. I never ever in a million years would have thought that many eyes would have been on this. Keep the information coming guys and one day we might be sticky worthy.

WortMonger said:

lamarguy, I was checking out those filters and they say 140*F as max temperature. I guess you haven't seen any warping or anything bad, but I was curious. I would love to find a stainless cartridge so I could autoclave it. It would be worth the extra cost to be able to reuse it indefinitely. Anyone know if they actually make a stainless pleated filter that look like the ones commonly used?

Click to expand...

Here are the best filters I have come across yet. They have SS end caps and are autoclaveable.

Thanks for the link sudbuster. I wonder though with the information provided from their site if this filter housing will work with this filter? Also if the filter I just referenced is an "absolute" or "nominal" filter? What do you/anyone think?

WortMonger said:

Thanks for the link sudbuster. I wonder though with the information provided from their site if this filter housing will work with this filter? Also if the filter I just referenced is an "absolute" or "nominal" filter? What do you/anyone think?

Click to expand...

WortMonger,
The housing I use is a GE houshold water filter housing obtainable at any of the builder's supplys. The filter you show is the same one I use for pre-filtering. I also have a 0.49 micron which i use for my son-in-law who is allegic to very much yeast. I can taste a difference after that filter though, so I only use the pre-filter for eveything else.
They just drop in like any other filter and away you go. When done, simply back flush and pressure them. If you get one, make sure the SS ring is checked on your order. They are the same price as the others and hold up to high temps better.
My system is such that from the brew kettle to the tap, the beer never is exposed to oxygen. The beer is allowed to naturally carbonate in the secondary. So, our systems differ in some respects. I could never find a good Sanke, or I would have gone with your setup. Take care, bud, and keep the pipeline moving....

Yeah, I used to be closed from kettle to tap, but now I fill my primary with it open then close. I would filter after my primary under counter pressure filling of my serving keg. I am carbonated during the end of primary and was worried until I read everything about filtering carbonated beer. Now I have no worries. So, you use this filter and it is absolute at .45 microns? Even if it isn't absolute, it polishes your beer just fine? You mentioned you have/use a larger .49 micron and can taste the difference so I wondered when you said you use this filter for everything else other than the beers for your son-in-law. I so love my system and the technique, this would just be the icing on the cake.

WortMonger said:

Yeah, I used to be closed from kettle to tap, but now I fill my primary with it open then close. I would filter after my primary under counter pressure filling of my serving keg. I am carbonated during the end of primary and was worried until I read everything about filtering carbonated beer. Now I have no worries. So, you use this filter and it is absolute at .45 microns? Even if it isn't absolute, it polishes your beer just fine? You mentioned you have/use a larger .49 micron and can taste the difference so I wondered when you said you use this filter for everything else other than the beers for your son-in-law. I so love my system and the technique, this would just be the icing on the cake.

Click to expand...

Yes, I do use these filters. They perform well. The 0.49 micron does remove too much for my taste, but SIL is happy. The 1.00 micron is perfect for me, but I still use the 3 micron pre-filter. That thing is the real work horse for the down line filters. I'm subscribed to this thread, so let me know how it works out if you decide to try filtering.

Ahhh, I thought you were saying you used the .45 micron in the link I posted, hence my confusion when you were talking about using the .49 and that being too much filtration for your tastes, lol. Glad you use the 1 and 3, as those are what I was thinking about. Actually, I would probably just buy the 1 and call it good. Since I get very little sediment during my transfer from primary (used as mentioned last post) would you think I would have a problem using just the 1 micron, or would you suggest the 3 then the 1? I am hoping just the 1 would work without clogging up due to my clean transfer anyway.

Yay, I'm down to 33*F for the second day after climbing down from 75*F (5*F daily and then the final 2*F yesterday). I should be ready to transfer this bad boy tomorrow after I clean the keg. I can't wait to try it after I transfer. Next up, brown! That one should be done before I even attempt to serve this one.

WortMonger said:

Ahhh, I thought you were saying you used the .45 micron in the link I posted, hence my confusion when you were talking about using the .49 and that being too much filtration for your tastes, lol. Glad you use the 1 and 3, as those are what I was thinking about. Actually, I would probably just buy the 1 and call it good. Since I get very little sediment during my transfer from primary (used as mentioned last post) would you think I would have a problem using just the 1 micron, or would you suggest the 3 then the 1? I am hoping just the 1 would work without clogging up due to my clean transfer anyway.

Click to expand...

If it were not for my SIL, I would go with just a 1 micron filter too. But for him, I have to do a multi stage filtration if I don't want to end up with a glogged filter.

I started my first closed system pressure fermentation in a sankey today. I've been assembling all of the equipment to make it happen, and it all came together today.

We did a 15 gal scottish 80 with wyeast 1728 fermenting at 65 degrees. Unfortunately, I didn't have time to make a starter.

My questions are:

Since I've under pitched (one smack pack) how much lag time should I expect?

and: How do you know where this Polysulfone valve is set? I turned it counter clockwise as far as I dare with the hope that its wide open. As the yeast start to give off CO2 I assume that I turn it clockwise to increase the pressure.

WortMonger, just to let you know, I use a 1micron filter (sometimes). I used it on my lager, because I knew I'd only have a few weeks to lager - it came out crystal clear and very tasty !

cmuench said:

I started my first closed system pressure fermentation in a sankey today. I've been assembling all of the equipment to make it happen, and it all came together today.

We did a 15 gal scottish 80 with wyeast 1728 fermenting at 65 degrees. Unfortunately, I didn't have time to make a starter.

My questions are:

Since I've under pitched (one smack pack) how much lag time should I expect?

and: How do you know where this Polysulfone valve is set? I turned it counter clockwise as far as I dare with the hope that its wide open. As the yeast start to give off CO2 I assume that I turn it clockwise to increase the pressure.

Click to expand...

I am scared to say what your lag time will be. That is quite a bit of under-pitching. I would have done a real wort starter (RWS) and just sealed up the rest until you were ready to pitch a more sizable amount of yeast into the bigger beer. I had a bit of lag time with this last one due to my shocking the yeast with temperature, and that was on a previously fermented yeast cake. This leads me into your other question.

I didn't see any activity as far as pressure build up for over a week. The only way I know of to "know" where your pressure release is set on your valve, is to have shot your fermenter with CO2 to more than the pressure you wanted and then bleed it down to set release pressure. In my case I let it ride until I was over this wanted pressure, and you could do the same thing. It is just easier to know by juicing it with a tank at the beginning. I would leave your valve closed completely and check daily. You may end up with some off flavors due to your lag and under-pitch, so I would go ahead and let the pressure build while turning up the heat a bit after you see you are fermenting. This makes sure the yeast will have the best chance to clean up most of what they can, diacetyl especially!!!

LooyvilleLarry said:

WortMonger, just to let you know, I use a 1micron filter (sometimes). I used it on my lager, because I knew I'd only have a few weeks to lager - it came out crystal clear and very tasty !

Click to expand...

Good to hear. I really think I am going to filter now that my lagers are turning out so well, other than clarity.

cmuench said:

I started my first closed system pressure fermentation in a sankey today. I've been assembling all of the equipment to make it happen, and it all came together today.

We did a 15 gal scottish 80 with wyeast 1728 fermenting at 65 degrees. Unfortunately, I didn't have time to make a starter.

My questions are:

Since I've under pitched (one smack pack) how much lag time should I expect?

and: How do you know where this Polysulfone valve is set? I turned it counter clockwise as far as I dare with the hope that its wide open. As the yeast start to give off CO2 I assume that I turn it clockwise to increase the pressure.

Click to expand...

If you can pick up another smak pack, just pitch them both.

Oh yeah, of course if you can get another pack pitch it. My advice "as is" is once you see pressure on your gauge... jack it up to 70*F and let it ride. I would leave my spunding valve closed until I reached carbonation/temperature levels and start my controlled release of pressure. The pressure will help you keep some of the unwanted off-flavors tamed, but under-pitching like you did might still have some that can't be completely cleaned up. Only time will tell. After your D-rest (which I would have for 4-7 days shaking the keg to stir the yeast up) I would find a way to taste test and gravity test. If you are good then crash cool, if you aren't then let it ride longer at the higher temps with yeast rousing. I bet you are not going to have any problems, but if you do you will know by taste. Oh, and be sure to tell the fermenting keg, "It puts the lotion on its skin, or it gets the hose again!"

Gentleman,

I do appreciate the advice.

I checked my pressure gauge at about 515pm tonight before we went to our halloween party and had about 5-10 psi on it (maybe 24 hours post pitch). I bled it to 0. Just checked it again and had a solid 15 psi. I bled it with the spunding valve down to about 2 psi and I've got a bunch of krausen coming out of the S valve at 65 degrees.

Now let's not forget these are not some namby pamby Oklahoma Scottish yeast we're talking about. THESE are hearty Minnesota Scottish yeast!!! Afterall, we have to be able to stomach the Vikings and still be able to get out of bed in the morning and go to work!!!

Hey, that's great.

Yeah, when you have that much in the keg and try to let that much pressure out at once it will allow krausen to escape. I usually run with the spunding valve set to 5 psi at least to keep the crap under control.

Are you going to try and carbonate with your last few gravity points? I am asking because it works better then, and you can get there fast at the higher temperatures when starting your D-rest. After the yeast has gone through its growth stage, you can jack it up to D-rest temps (at least in my understanding from Jamil and my own experiences). This is why I can't use my original spunding valve, as it only controls up to 20 psi and I need 36 in some instances at those temperatures to get those volumes of carbonation.

So glad that yeast took off like a rocket... as I honestly didn't expect that at all. I have learned though to not trust yeast activity by reading my pressure gauge. In my thinking on this, the beer (being under pressure) is absorbing more CO2 during initial fermentation that would normally be bubbling out an airlock or into a blow-off bucket. So, the gauge won't read until the beer can't absorb as fast as it wants to get out of the keg. I have to say that I thought I had this thing pretty figured out... and then I started brewing lagers, lol. Lagers are definitely teaching me even more about this technique. Teaching me to trust stuff is happening even though I can't see it is. Don't forget your D-rest, and then don't forget to post as soon as you have more results. I can't wait to hear more.

As for the rest of you slackers... when are you gonna contribute more to this thread with your beers? Get to brewing you lazy people, lol. I am getting bored with nothing to read on here. I may have started this thread, but it ain't my thread!!!

OK I need some help with the math...

I overshot my OG by 10. 1.062 vs 1.052. Not sure why.

Now I'm at 4 days, 10 psi and 65 degrees. The SG today is 1.020. Now what? There's no more krausen out of the S valve. The taste is quite good...

I'd like to carbonate with the last few SG points.

Any thoughts?

What volumes of CO2 do you want? According to style, you should want between 1.5 volumes to 2.3 volumes of carbonation. This is equivalent to 10.68 psi to 22.88 psi respectively at 65*F, according to BeerSmith. I would go ahead and set your SV to somewhere in between that and let it ride until finish. I actually like to set the pressure a tad bit higher, release the excess to wanted, and then do my D-rest once the pressure stops increasing (of course taking into effect having to raise my psi to keep the wanted carbonation level when doing so). Your growth phase is done, whatever you do (within reasonable parameters of course) with the yeast will be fine. The higher pressure won't hurt anything or give any off flavors that won't clear up during your D-rest time. Crank it! Give it time to do its thing! Then enjoy that beer!

I'm excited for you:rockin: