Results from juice, yeast and sugar experiments

Does this mean that the fermentation would finish at around 1.008 and I would not have to cold crash?

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Sadly, no. The attenuation specs for ale yeasts assume you are working with beer wort, which typically has a lot of long chain sugars that are hard for an ale yeast to ferment. While apple juice has some long chain sugars, just about any yeast will work right through them - although the ale yeasts do tend to slow down a bit towards the end. Notty is a good yeast to use though - with the useful property being that "settling is promoted by cooling", although this is true for just about any ale yeast.

Hey Kevin,

I just want to say thank you for this thread. I had never made hard cider (and hadn't made any beer for about 5 years) before seeing this thread. I have now made 10 batches following the methods you outlined here.

If it wasn't for seeing this information here, I probably would have never made hard cider. I definitely would have never realized it could be so simple to bottle hard cider without it being bone dry.

It's been excellent.

Thanks again.

Ok so I want a really quick cider, and I came across this thread.

Once the juice ferments, it’s a different story. The pasteurized juice ferments faster, the results are more consistent, and you can drink it in a few weeks. If you cold crash it, it is quite drinkable in about 10 days.

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Well, I really want the carboy from the juice but having cider to go with that would be nice. Can you confirm this procedure?

-start with 1 gallon of whole foods 365 juice
-pitch nottingham dry, airlock, ferment down to 1.008 or so (my current batch seemed to go reallly fast on s-04 so I'll be taking readings every couple of days or so)
-rack (i was going to siphon out the juice to a clean bucket, rinse out the original 1gallon bottle, star-san, then re-siphon back into the bottle...)
-stick in the fridge to cold crash, keep in fridge in original bottle (having gone through the rack procedure above) until completely consumed.

I basically wanted to have a drinkable cider quickly from the juice - this is the gist of the procedure correct? I have to admit being a newb to all this I am worried about the cold crashing bit. Should I aim for a certain temp in the fridge or anything of that sort, or should this just be good/stable as is?

thanks!

I've been following this whole thread; I've got to post an update on the batch I brewed in the fall. It's just finally carbed up now, though I've been enjoying it still all this time.

Anyway, Kevin, I think it would really serve this forum and its readership well if you could find the time to put together a comprehensive guide to cider based on the results of all these experiments and pop it right up at the top of this thread. Future aspiring cider-makers will be all the better for it. There's just been so little empirical data or solid information available on homebrewed cider... you really are doing some trailblazing here.

Tap21 - Glad to hear that this thread has been helpful to you! Cheers.

bpm2000 - yep, that's the basic procedure. Try to keep the cider cool (55-65) as it ferments. It will taste better and not ferment so fast so you can catch it right where you want it. Also I find that its easier to stop if I bump the sg up to 1.060 - 1.065 with some sugar or honey. With simple sugars, the yeast will go to town on those first and be more tuckered out by the time it gets to the long chain apple sugars. Honey has more complex sugars and leaves more of a taste, but works well with apples. You can leave it in the fridge after cold crashing, but after you get some practice you should be able to keep it stable at room temperature by first racking, then chilling than rack again after 2 days of 35 to 40 degrees in the fridge.

notjustgc - Yeah, this sticky is getting long, and could certainly benefit from some better organization. I've definitely learned a lot since I started reading HBT a few years ago. Thanks to everyone who has been posting their results and info on here! A while back I tried to edit the first page to point to some of the more relevant and recent pages so that people would not have to wade through it all, but I could not edit old posts. Does anyone know if the premium membership level allows one to do this? It seems I can only edit recent posts.

CvilleKevin said:

Tap21 - Glad to hear that this thread has been helpful to you! Cheers.

A while back I tried to edit the first page to point to some of the more relevant and recent pages so that people would not have to wade through it all, but I could not edit old posts. Does anyone know if the premium membership level allows one to do this? It seems I can only edit recent posts.

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I think the Wiki pages is the only available mechanism to consolidate information. It seems like the only way to keep the unknowledgeable from corrupting the info as well. I have tried to intervene in other threads when there is spurious info, and get flack from the "my uncle billy has always done it this-a way" types. It seems like the WIKI keeps the amateurs out.

CvilleKevin

for the grain buys I have done I can edit anywhere in the thread (at the first post or at the end). Not sure if it is because the thread isn't as old, or the membership status. They are having a membership sale though for $20 right now.

The wiki is probably a great (or the best) place to consolidate your work though.

CvilleKevin,

+1 on thanks for this thread to give me the confidence to start working on Cider.for SWMBO. I'm on batch 4 or 5 now, with pretty consistent results, using either Whole Foods, Knudsen or Santa Cruz organic cider, Nottingham and Turbinado (we get it in 25 pound bags for baking). Towards the end of the summer I'm going to investigate local bulk cider sources from the Western Slope, but for now I'm using what's available.

I use the sugar to bring the OG up to 1.060 or so, ferment it bone dry for about 3 weeks in the basement where it's 65 deg, cold crash it for several days in the fermenting jug and rack it into Mr Beer PET bottles (my safety valve for self carbonation). I leave enough space in the bottles to then back-sweeten it with 8 oz from the next 1 gal jug's juice (so 2 oz fresh juice per qt), which gives me the head-space to do the next batch.

So far, the cold-crash and single rack into the bottle has only had one bottle carbonate, and even that one didn't carb too strongly. But I'll stick with the PET bottles for a while...

SWMBO's preferred summer drink is a spritzer using the Soda Stream to carb some water, and mix 2-1 water-to-wine. This is what we use car camping because we can use wine-in-a-box (with the box removed) thrown on top of the ice in the cooler without getting too plowed with the kids around. We've found this requires a fairly sweet wine (cheap muscat's work well), and the cider with this amount of back-sweetening has the right amount of sweetness (and cider flavor) to replace the wine.

Anyway, thanks again!

Kevin, thanks a bunch for this thread. On your advice I made a batch of cider with S-04. It's pretty darn good. Very appley and fairly sweet. I'll never use wine yeast again!

I also made a batch with T-58. If you haven't tried that yeast yet, it makes a good cider. It finishes drier than S-04, but it has a nice tartness and a subtle clovey/spicy flavor.

MarkT - cheers! using PET is probably a good idea for anyone starting out with cold crashing, although it sounds like you've got it down.

Nateo - glad you like the S04! I tried T58 a couple years ago, but didnt have much luck with it. It fermented a lot faster than the other yeasts I was trying, and by the time I tasted it, it was already down to 0.998 and not much flavor left. Probably would have tasted better if I caught it earlier. What was the final gravity on yours?

I made a nice dry keg with 3056 this past season. I wasnt intending for it to get dry, but I let it go too long between tastings and it went to 1.002 before I crashed it. At first it wasnt real flavorful, sorta like a Magners (which is OK but I'm not crazy about) but after 5 months in the keg it picked up a real nice fruit finish. I tapped the keg at a party in May and it was one of the first to float, which surprised me because usually my friends dont go much for the dry stuff. Unfortunately, I didnt save any because I wasnt expecting the keg to get crushed, so its just a memory now.

S04, Brewpack Ale, US05 and Notty were all good performers this past year. The 3068 didnt work out as well as previous years, mainly because they fermented out faster than usual and left too much malic acid. I added MLF culture, but it hasnt seemed to help yet, probably because there is still too much residual sugar.

I had 6 bottles burst this year - all in the past month and mostly because of sloppy practice. Three of the bottles were from experimental batches - Wy1272, WLP041 and WLP810. I bottled these back in January, and normally I would have sampled at least 1 bottle by now and been alerted that fermentation was starting to pick up, but I've been fairly slammed and not drinking as much this Spring/Summer. I guess I'd better have another tasting soon. The other three bottles I lost because they got too hot. They are in my basement which has no AC and the crates are stacked near two windows. Normally I have a tapestry that covers my crates to keep the sun off them. I took it off to pull out a few bottles for a party and forgot to put it back on. A few days later we had some really hot weather and I lost three of the bottles that were facing the windows. Fortunately, they are all in crates which have pans underneath them to contain any spills, so cleanup wasnt bad. Ironically, I havent had any problems with the batches that I was intentionally trying to bottle carbonate with Wy3333. They have all worked out great (knock on wood). That was why I got the crates and the pans in the first place. But I'm afraid that having the crates and pans allowed me to get a bit overconfident about the other bottles. In the previous 5 years that I've been bottling, I had only lost 3 bottles out of about 1000 or so. So I am more careful about keeping everything covered now - although I still have a bunch of untasted experimental batches. Its supposed to hit 100 this afternoon and its already 82 in my basement at 11am so hopefully no more casualties.

I just bottled my T-58 batch. It was at 1.010. It tasted OK, but it lot a bit of character from primary. I think if I had bottled/pastuerized it sooner, it would've turned out better, but maybe something amazing will happen in the bottles.

I bottled my cider about 3 weeks ago. Very slow to carb. One thing I thought was weird is that it has a beer-like after taste.
I'm using safale s-04, has anyone else noticed anything similar? I'm wondering if I maybe just didn't wash out my bottles properly.

Nateo - good luck with the T58. if you caught it at 1.010, you should have better results than what I got.

smegger - I'm not sure what you mean by beer-like aftertaste. A little yeasty maybe? I usually stop my ciders around 1.006 to 1.010, which gives them a body and sweetness that is more like a beer than a traditional dry cider. Sometimes the acids from the apples will give it an almost hoppy finish, but the finish is mainly fruity. If you chill the bottles and pour them slowly, do you still get the beery finish?

I just kegged a batch from last Fall that has been bulk aging since January. Pink Lady and York apples, US05 yeast, no extra sugar. Still at 1.008 and tastes great. The finish is a little heavy on the malic acid, so I've been mostly mixing it with another one that I recently kegged - also bulk aging since last Fall. Northern Spy, Gala and Jonathan with S04, kegged it at 1.010. Nice and appley but could use more bite in the finish. The two together are awesome.

I've still got nine carboys that are bulk aging from last season, which should keep me in kegs until cider season starts back up in a couple months. Two are really nice dry ciders that have finished mellowing. the sweeter ones are individually not all that - some have too much MA in the finish, others could use more bite - but I think by mixing them, they should come out pretty good. Knock on wood, this should be the first year that I've had good kegs of cider going year round. I've saved plenty of bottles through the summer before, and a few kegs of dry cider, but usually the kegs of sweet cider are gone by the Spring.

Actually I'm starting to think the aftertaste might be my own fault. I had a couple of bottles that only received a quick wash because I miscounted when washing the rest. I suspect that a few of the bottles still had some sorta beery crud clinging to the inside of the bottle despite looking clean.

Thank you!

I've tried cider once - lots of supermarket apple juice and a left over yeast packet from my extract days... it was dry, tart, and horrible!

Lots of great info here and I'm going to give it another shot

George - good luck! If you can find a good source of fresh juice, it makes a huge difference. Its like the difference between making a good all-grain batch of beer vs a cheap extract kit. I understand that Pink Lady apples originally came from Australia. Those make great cider.

This past season, I had really good results with Brupaks Ale yeast, which is a PIA to get in the States, but seems to be readily available in other countries.

The Dominion Cup Homebrew Competition was last weekend. Its the biggest competition in Virginia. I entered one of my favorite batches from last season which was Stayman, Pink Lady and Albemarle Pippen apples with Brupaks Ale yeast. Cold crashed at 1.010 and kegged last Fall. The judges seemed to like it a lot. I havent got the scores back yet, but it took first place at the cider table and 2nd place for best of show (all beer/cider/mead styles). I wish I had saved more bottles before the keg ran out - I only saved 3 bottles. Entered two and drank the last one a few days ago. I'll be using a lot of Brupaks this coming season.

smegger said:

I bottled my cider about 3 weeks ago. Very slow to carb. One thing I thought was weird is that it has a beer-like after taste.
I'm using safale s-04, has anyone else noticed anything similar? I'm wondering if I maybe just didn't wash out my bottles properly.

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Yes I noticed the same when I used this yeast. I did my own testing with the same recipe with different kinds of yeast. s-04 tasted beer like to me.

Mcduff said:

Yes I noticed the same when I used this yeast. I did my own testing with the same recipe with different kinds of yeast. s-04 tasted beer like to me.

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Nice to know I'm not the only person who thought this. I didn't think I did that bad a job cleaning the bottles. Mind if I ask which yeast has given you the sweetest results so far?

CvilleKevin said:

I entered one of my favorite batches from last season which was Stayman, Pink Lady and Albemarle Pippen apples with Brupaks Ale yeast.

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gonna try a brupaks batch this autumn!

Smegger, McDuff - when you guys say that the cider tastes like beer, do you mean yeasty? malty? something else? I intentionally stop mine around 1.010, which gives it a body and residual sweetness that is much more like a beer than an apple wine. Sometimes they are a bit yeasty tasting before the cold crash but not afterwards. In my experience, the most beery tasting yeast for cider is US05, which seems to bring out a maltier taste from the apple sugars - which is something I like.

I'm going to be tasting a dozen experimental batches from last season next Wednesday (8/31). All new yeasts, hopefully at least a few of them will come out good. I havent tasted them yet. I'll have some bottles from known good batches chilled down and ready to go as well - just in case all these new ones are duds. If any of you folks are close to Charlottesville and want to check em out, PM me.

Have two 3 gallon batches that have been going for just under a week. One batch has White Labs Belgian Saison yeast and the other is Hefeweizein IV yeast

I read that you didn't have much luck with the Belgian Saison yeast any tips for making the best of this batch?

caburdet78 - the main problem I had with the WLP belgian saison was that it fermented out so fast that by the time I checked it for the first time, it was already completely dry, and not much flavor was left. It mellowed over time, but never got back much flavor. I would keep it as cool as possible and check it often. If its been going for a week, you might even want to check it now because that yeast will tear through some cider. If you can catch it before it ferments out, I'd try to cold crash it, although I dont know if this yeast crashes very well or not - I never got the chance to find out.

Not sure how that saison yeast will react to temp with only simple sugars, but for beer, most saison yeasts produce spicy (clove) notes at low temps and fruity (banana) notes at higher temps. I think the range for most is mid 60s to high 70s, and can go hotter (if you really like bananas).

I would guess the key with yours is going to be keeping an eye on it to stop it before the flavor gets eaten, seeing as how you are already a few days in. Reducing the temp at the later stages can slow the progress down, making it easier to catch at the right FG.

So I am not sure that I have the equipment to cold crash it...would racking it to a secondary slow it down enough?

caburdet78 said:

So I am not sure that I have the equipment to cold crash it...would racking it to a secondary slow it down enough?

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I was suggesting lowering the temps a bit to the low end of the range to slow it down to make it easier to catch it at your FG, at which point you would then need to cold crash (or ???) to stop the yeast, then rack. With cider, most yeast will continue feeding and removing flavor until it tastes like cheap white wine. If you have no means of adjusting temp, you just need to be more vigilant about checking the progress. The yeast will still need to be completely stopped at some point though, and racking alone will not do this as the more active yeast are the ones in suspension.

If you have no means at all of cold crashing (spare fridge?), I assume you also don't keg, which means you are going to have to stop the yeast some other way. One option is pasteurization. Another is chemicals, which I will not discuss as I don't have enough knowledge about them.

If you are going the pasteurizing route and want it carbed, the simplest method is to catch it at the correct FG, then add the proper amount of bottling sugar, bottle. You then have to check a bottle every so often for proper carbing, and when it is properly carbed, pasteurize the whole batch. A trickier method is to catch it early (higher FG), bottle it, then either pasteurize when it has carbed properly. There are trickier methods still that are discussed here and in other threads.

cwi said:

Another is chemicals, which I will not discuss as I don't have enough knowledge about them.

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to piggy back on this, the common potassium sorbate and potassium metabisulfite DO NOT stop an active fermentation in its tracks. kmeta can temporarily stun the yeast, and kill weak strains or in super high doses (which wouldn't want to use on PPM wise in your cider). sorbate inhibits yeast reproduction, but not if there are enough yeast present to overrun it.

You need to cold crash it to get the yeast out of suspension, whether you plan on using sulphites and sorbate or simply cold crashing as a technique alone.

I know that cvillekevin had at one point talked about suspecting the removal nitrogen to stop fermentation in a commercial operation, but that he didn't know how you could accomplish something like this on a home brewer scale. I could have misrepresented the last part - so cville jump in and correct me if I did.


On a personal note, I don't cold crash all my ciders due to my inability to handle all that cider via a cold crash method I do find you can make a great backsweetened draft cider using concentrated fresh pressed cider juice.

So I am not sure that I have the equipment to cold crash it...would racking it to a secondary slow it down enough?

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Cold crashing does not take much equipment, just some extra space in the refrigerator and an extra carboy. Rack the cider off the yeast cake, chill it for a couple days at as near freezing as you can get it, and then rack it back to a keg for force carbonation or the original container if you want to let it clear and/or keep an eye on it for a while to verify that the cold crash stopped it. If you keep your keg cold, then you dont have to worry if got out all the yeast in the crash, because any remaining ones will be slowed way down.

I have racked ciders without crashing before to slow them down. I do that because sometimes two ciders taste ready to go at the same time and I only have space in the fridge to cold crash one. It does slow the ale yeast batches down enough to delay the crash for a few days. Every once in a while a single rack can cause the fermenation to stop for low nutrient juice, but usually it starts back up. The yeast cake provides a lot of nutrients.

the easiest method is to catch it at the correct FG, pasteurize the whole batch (in bulk or in bottles), then add the proper amount of bottling sugar and yeast, and bottle.

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If you stop the fermentation before terminal FG and then pasteurize, DO NOT add any more yeast. You can drink it still or force carbonate. If there is any fermentable sugar besides the priming sugar and you add more yeast, you will get burst bottles.

the common potassium sorbate and potassium metabisulfite DO NOT stop an active fermentation in its tracks.

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I've been able to stop ferments up to 1.010 with kmeta and sorbate, but I wouldnt recommend it. I did a 16-batch experiment a few years ago with S04 yeast and varying amounts of kmeta and sorbate vs cold crashing. At least half a dose of kmeta, stirred and allowed to absorb for about 15-30 min, followed by full dose of sorbate will stop the fermentation, but that much sorbate leaves an aftertaste that I dont like - sort of a medicinal vanilla and baby aspirin taste. Some of my friends were OK with it. It seemed to me like the taste of sorbate would work better in a root beer. If you take a tiny bit from the jar it comes in, and put it on your tongue, thats the taste. It doesnt go away. If it doesnt bother you, then you have no worries, I try to avoid it.

cvillekevin had at one point talked about suspecting the removal nitrogen to stop fermentation in a commercial operation, but that he didn't know how you could accomplish something like this on a home brewer scale.

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Its a little tricky, but doable. I've done seven batches using nutrient reduction to bottle carb a sweet cider and havent burst any bottles yet, knock on wood. I wrote about it a few months ago. You need low nitrogen juice (which is most organically grown juice), a yeast that uses a lot of nutrients, like a wheat yeast (I've had good results with Wy3333) and a way to contain bottle spills in case they do burst. You may also need to do some experimenting to find the right yeast that works with your juice.

I do find you can make a great backsweetened draft cider using concentrated fresh pressed cider juice.

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If you keep your kegs cold you have a lot of options. If you use an ale yeast, you will gain the same benefit as cold crashing, the yeast will go dormant and stay that way as long as you dont lose power. Even lager yeasts, which are nearly impossible to crash, will slow way down in a cold keg. Just drink at bit every few days and if it feels like too much pressure is building up, let some out

I ordered a commercial fridge about a week ago. It should be here in another week. It fits in the same space as my old fridge but is taller so it will fit 2 kegs and 2 carboys at the same time. I'll be able to cold crash two batches at a time if I need to and still get my drank on. true temp control so I should be getting more consistent crashes, plus I wont freeze my kegs and accidentally make applejack whenever the basement gets real cold. I'm lookin forward to apple harvest season, presses should be starting up in a few weeks.

CvilleKevin said:

I've been able to stop ferments up to 1.010 with kmeta and sorbate, but I wouldnt recommend it. I did a 16-batch experiment a few years ago with S04 yeast and varying amounts of kmeta and sorbate vs cold crashing. At least half a dose of kmeta, stirred and allowed to absorb for about 15-30 min, followed by full dose of sorbate will stop the fermentation

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i have had S04 restart a backsweetened 1.014 batch with full k-meta and sorbate doses and ferment it dry in the keg. needless to say i was very surprised when i pulled the release valve. i suspect that i was lazy/haphazard/intoxicated when racking and pulled up some yeast but i'm not sure

CvilleKevin said:

If you stop the fermentation before terminal FG and then pasteurize, DO NOT add any more yeast. You can drink it still or force carbonate. If there is any fermentable sugar besides the priming sugar and you add more yeast, you will get burst bottles.

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Sorry about the bad info earlier, I corrected the post. Midway through writing that post, I realized he probably doesn't keg or have much cold bottle storage if he can't cold crash. I then got confused while editing my post to remove some kegging and still cider details, and merging text. I don't even bottle, except out of a forced keg, so I should have kept my mouth shut.

I just wanted to make sure he realized that he would have to pasteurize if he doesn't crash or cold store, and might need to catch it before his desired FG if he wanted to carb without adding sugar. He hadn't given many details on his process, and if he isn't temp controlling the ferment on a saison yeast in mid summer, it may already be done by now.

Revised steps for the simple method should have been-
Stop at desired FG, add priming sugar, bottle, check bottles periodically for proper carb, then pasteurize batch when carbed.

so here is my plan so far:

The Airlock is still bubbling so it is still going.
It is currently sitting in a 6 gallon carboy which with 3 gallons makes it hard to take a reading so I am going to purchase a 3 gallon carboy (been meaning to do this anyway)

Going to rack and take a reading

Since I live with my girlfirend and we don't have another fridge I may have to get creative and find some way to crash it

caburdet78 said:

The Airlock is still bubbling so it is still going.

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Don't let the bubbles fool you, it isn't like beer where the yeast stop. The last bubbles are the yeast chewing through the flavor. It can bubble even below 1.000. Some guys try to gauge the bubble rate to get a rough idea, but they admit it isn't very accurate.

Don't let the bubbles fool you

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True, I would take a taste ASAP. Even the sg is not a great indication - it can tell you if the cider is done, but if you are going for semi-sweet, you really need to taste it to tell the balance between sugar and acids. Sometimes a 1.008 can taste too sweet if not much acid in the juice, conversely 1.012 might not be enough residual sugar to balance a lot of acid. Plus, your personal taste may be for more or less residual sweetness.

In a pinch, you can cold crash in a keg bucket with some ice. It takes about 25lbs of ice to crash an ale yeast like S04 or Notty, but no telling if this will work with WLP565

yeah I think the inital plan is to pack it in ice in a side of the slop sink in the basement

i have had S04 restart a backsweetened 1.014 batch with full k-meta and sorbate doses and ferment it dry in the keg.

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dinnerstick - hmm, one other thing I did when I used k-meta and sorbate to stop mine is that I racked the cider off the yeast cake before adding the k-meta, and then the sorbate. That probably helped to knock the nutrient level way down to a point where the yeast was more susceptible to the chemicals. Your keg wasnt cold when it started refermenting again was it?

I suspect that one of the reasons that I've had good luck with cold crashing without any chemicals is that I've always used juice from organically grown (low fertilizer) apples. If the juice is already low in nutrient, just getting the juice off the yeast cake will slow down the yeast. The crash and subsequent rack will get even more nutrient out, along with all the yeast that flocc'ed - so if there is any yeast left in suspension, it wont be able to do much. If the juice is still high in nutrients after the crash then any yeast cells that are left could slowly build a colony back up.

Hello, great thread!!

I just finished week two of my fermintation and moved it in to a secondary to clarify. I used ec 1118 and it pretty dry. OG was 1.072 and now is about 1.000. Do you think I should allow it to sit another week or two to clarify or is it best to bottle now?

I will also be adding some xylitol at bottling time to add sweetness to counter the dryness of it. The xylitol cant fermint so I figure it will help with how dry it is already. I know you dont prime with sugar when bottling but I was wondering if you did what would your raitio of fermintable sugar be per gallon? Ive hered 3/4 cup brwn sugar per gallon which seems like to much and Ive also read 3/4 cup for 5 gallons.

Thank you

CvilleKevin said:

dinnerstick - hmm, one other thing I did when I used k-meta and sorbate to stop mine is that I racked the cider off the yeast cake before adding the k-meta, and then the sorbate. That probably helped to knock the nutrient level way down to a point where the yeast was more susceptible to the chemicals. Your keg wasnt cold when it started refermenting again was it?

I suspect that one of the reasons that I've had good luck with cold crashing without any chemicals is that I've always used juice from organically grown (low fertilizer) apples. If the juice is already low in nutrient, just getting the juice off the yeast cake will slow down the yeast. The crash and subsequent rack will get even more nutrient out, along with all the yeast that flocc'ed - so if there is any yeast left in suspension, it wont be able to do much. If the juice is still high in nutrients after the crash then any yeast cells that are left could slowly build a colony back up.

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my 'episode' with s04 resurrection was as follows, cider was completely dry (ballpark of 0.996?) and very clear, racked to a clean carboy with k-meta, sweetened to 1.014, added sorbate. actually left it a few days to watch, gravity didn't change, into the keg at room temp. i just purged air and left it since i was waiting for my kegerator parts. didn't even have the fridge at that point. came back from 2 weeks away and just checked the release valve out of curiosity and it went mental. gravity 1.000. luckily this was a throwaway batch that i planned to have ready just to burn through to celebrate the kegerator build. i am not one for fermenting supermarket juice but that's what i did here. first and last time i suspect since it tastes like, well tastes like nothing really, and i even added malic and some tannin. this is a topic for discussion elsewhere, but this stuff compared to even my most basic dessert apple real cider... ridiculous. i get all my apples (on a bike; this is holland) from a nearby orchard but don't know a thing about nutrient level or fertilization. now that i have cold crash capabilities i will try your method this autumn, not worried about a tiny bit of residual activity in a cold keg anyways.

Do you think I should allow it to sit another week or two to clarify or is it best to bottle now?

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If you are going to bottle carb, I would definitely wait another week to make sure the sg doesnt drop any more. EC1118 can easily go to 0.996.

I know you dont prime with sugar when bottling but I was wondering if you did what would your raitio of fermintable sugar be per gallon?

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It depends on how much carb you are going for. I would use about 1oz per gallon, which will increase the SG by a bit less than 0.002. Thats a little on the low side, but enough for a decent carb, plus gives you some margin in case the yeast get a second wind and ferment more of the apple sugar after they are done with the priming sugar. Personally, I would not use brown sugar to prime, but its a matter of taste. A lot of people like it.

Before you bottle, its worth the time to try some samples of the cider with different non-fermentables, as well as different priming sugars (which can also include juice concentrate). Depending on how the cider fermented out, some sweeteners will compliment it better than others, and the best one(s) to use will change from batch to batch. Try as many options as you can and trust your tastebuds over any recipe

cider was completely dry (ballpark of 0.996?) and very clear, racked to a clean carboy with k-meta, sweetened to 1.014, added sorbate. actually left it a few days to watch, gravity didn't change

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weird - that seems like it should have worked. If you added the sorbate after the sugar, I wonder if some of the sorbate bonds with the sugar somehow? The highest batch I did was at 1.010 and most were lower, more like 1.006. Thats not a huge difference, but maybe significant?

I found that for S04 yeast, it took a full dose (1/2tsp per gallon) of the sorbate to stop the fermentations. I tried to use half this amount and it didnt work. For the k-meta, I could cut the dose down to a third - 1/12 tsp in 5 gallons and it would still work, as long as I used a full dose of sorbate. I also did 5 wild yeast batches and was able to stop the fermentations with only half a dose of the sorbate. I attributed this to S04 being more resistant to the sorbate, but it may have been because the sgs on these wild batches were a little lower - 1.004 to 1.006

I suspect that supermarket juice probably also has more nitrogen content. The big commercial producers are more likely to max out the fertilizer to get their orchard yields up, compared to a lot of smaller and mid sized operations that are cutting back.

A couple of pages ago I mentioned that I've been doing 1 gal batches and bottling them in PET bottles. For the last couple of batches I've intentionally not crashed the cider after it's finished, and instead I've been racking straight into Mr Beer PET bottles to see if I can bottle carb. I must say, the past 3 batches in a row turned out quite well, although that's a pretty short track record to claim it's fool-proof. Very drinkable straight from the bottle or diluted as a spritzer, with a nice fresh cider aroma (varying depending on the cider).

The basics are:

0. Choose your base cider carefully; I've been experimenting with various high-dollar organic ciders from the local Natural Grocers/Vitamin Cottage. The front range of CO doesn't have much apple production; but the western slope has some commercial production that is pretty good. I've been using 6 oz per gallon of Turbinado sugar to bring the OG up a little.
1. Ferment bone dry, about 3 weeks with Nottingham, rack off the cake without cold-crashing
2. Prime (back-sweeten) with about 2 oz of fresh cider (not sugar) per 1 liter bottle. I'm experimenting with the exact amount still; it is useful to use a little more than will actually be consumed by the yeast to give it back the cider nose.
3. PET bottles for bottling, which can withstand about 2.5 times the pressure of glass bottles, and can be monitored easily to determine the carb level.
4. Refrigerate until consumed when fully carbed.

I'd be willing to use glass for some of the bottles now that I'm getting used to the feel of the carb level through the PET bottles, but I'd have to use a PET bottle or two per batch for monitoring. However I have enough PET bottles that I don't see the point.

CvilleKevin said:

caburdet78 - the main problem I had with the WLP belgian saison was that it fermented out so fast that by the time I checked it for the first time, it was already completely dry, and not much flavor was left. It mellowed over time, but never got back much flavor. I would keep it as cool as possible and check it often. If its been going for a week, you might even want to check it now because that yeast will tear through some cider. If you can catch it before it ferments out, I'd try to cold crash it, although I dont know if this yeast crashes very well or not - I never got the chance to find out.

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so I am trying to crash my belgian saison cider

more pics on blog

been using ice and salt to make a slurry until I can get to the homebrew store and get some potassium sorbate. How much should I use for the 3 gallon batch?

caburdet78 - Personally, before adding sorbate, I'd rack the cider off the crashed cake and see if the crash was able to get all the yeast to drop out. Just make sure you dont suck up any debris from the bottom - just get the clear stuff. You can always drink the leftover trub - its usually pretty tasty, just not stable.

If the crash doesnt get all the yeast to drop, before adding any sorbate, you should put a small amount on your tongue or maybe mix a small bit with some cider to see if you are OK with the taste. In my experience, about half of my friends either dont notice or dont mind the taste, while others dont like it.

If the crash doesnt slow the yeast, my own inclination would be to store as much as possible in the fridge to keep it stable and then either take the rest to a party or have some friends over

If you go with the sorbate, before adding it you need to add a small amount of k-meta first. I dont know why, but adding sorbate without k-meta first tastes really horrible. For 3 gal use 1/20 tsp of k-meta (1/3 the dose on the label). If you have tabs that are 1 per gallon, use 1 tab in all three gallons. Stir it a little and give it half an hour for the k-meta to bind. I'd use a full dose of the sorbate, which would be 1 1/2 tsp in 3 gal. You might be able to get away with less since you crashed the cider first. OTOH, if the crash doesnt stop the yeast and you are OK with the sorbate taste, you might as well use a full dose to make sure the job gets done. good luck!