Spa Panel Wiring for Dummies

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I would prefer 120/240 but only require 240 and the source would be a 3 prong dryer outlet.
 
OK. Well....since you're tying into an existing circuit then it seems common opinion that you don't need to have a dedicated grounding wire. However, I think this is a bit muddy because that was relative to dedicated circuits for dryers and or ranges. Since the circuit is re-purposed when the brewing system is plugged in Code could get complicated. Not saying it changes things but by the same token I'm not sure it doesn't either.

Either way though, I don't believe it's proper to "derive" a grounding wire from the neutral on that dryer circuit. In other words, you have L1, L2, N coming in so that's all you can have coming out. You can't just make up G from N and wire it to a 4 pole plug and call it an equipment/safety grounding wire.

If you refer back to that link you posted to Sundance Spas information, it clearly shows an equipment grounding wire from the main panel to the spa panel regardless if you're connecting for 240V only or 120/240V. No doubt this assumes installing a new circuit, not using an old dryer or range circuit.


Top: "This GFCI can be used to protect 240V 3 wire or 240V 4 wire devices up to 50 amps. If a 3 wire device is being protected a #12 AWG neutral is required from the power source (house) to the load center only.

What this means is that if you're using a 240V only application you still need to run a neutral even though it's not used for 240V. In this case I believe the purpose of the neutral is only for GFCI operation and since it will only carry a small amount of current, 12ga is plenty.

Note that running this neutral wire does not negate the need for a grounding wire from the main panel to the spa panel and from the spa panel to the load to have a grounding circuit.

The problem with saying 3-wire or 4-wire is they can be too generic to adequately describe the circuit or intent. Moreso with 3-wire. Three wire could be L1, L2, and G in a straight 240V circuit or it could be L1, L2, and N in a 120/240V circuit.

Bottom left: Netral is no longer required on a 240V 3 wire circuit from the point

That's correct, on the load side neutral isn't required because a pure 240V circuit doesn't have a neutral. Doesn't negate the need for grounding wire though in that application.


Bottom right: If the device to be served is 240v 3 wire the neutral wire from source to N requires a #12 AWG wire. Neutral is disregarded from this point.

That's just restating what was previously stated in the first panel information.

My advice is to replace the 3 wire 120/240 dryer circuit with a 4 wire 120/240V circuit so that you have a dedicated grounding wire.

Whether or not you can, by code, use 3-wire (L1, L2, N) circuits for this sort of thing is still unclear, to me, anyway, because the circuit is no longer dedicated to a dryer or range as the original intent of the circuit was. Plus, unclarity about the Code details of bonding of neutral to enclosures and equipment downstream of the main panel.
 
whoaru99 thanks for the in depth reply. I would love to just install a 4 prong plug but this will be in a house I am renting and moving into in 3 weeks so I would feel bad asking to install a 4 prong especially with the landlord leaving a 3 prong dryer for me. Any idea how much this would cost on average? it would be installed 2 feet from the main breaker

Another option I have is that i was going to build onto a control panel that I already have for my march pump. Currently the control panel is feed by a 120V source with a ground. My plan was to replace the 120V power source with 240V and feed everything off of that. Would it be possible to add 240V while leaving the 120V and use the ground from the 120V source for the whole control panel and pot?
 
The first part, about the cost, should be (subjectively) minimal. The following is assuming it's currently wired with non-metallic sheathed cable (aka Romex). If it's already in conduit it could be somewhat less cost.

14-30 receptacle = $8
10/3 w/ground cable (6ft) = $7 (if you can get per foot)
14-30 dryer cord = $20 (to convert dryer to 4 wire)

Probably need some wiring staples/clamps and a few other odds and ends. = $10.

That's DIY. If you had to call in an electrician I could only venture a guess. $100-$150.

As far as using the ground from the 120V circuit not really sure how that flies in the face of all this. Would it get you a ground? Yup, but again the devil is in the detail. Is a 14ga or 12ga grounding wire OK to cover for ground on a 30A circuit that requires 10ga wire? This and other questions...

To me it's just real muddy if you want to keep it all legit.
 
It may be ghetto, but if you're renting the house and don't want to monkey with someone else's panels and wiring, you could just replace the outlet to a 4 wire and run a dedicated ground from the panel to the outlet, so you'd keep the existing wiring (assuming it's the right gauge) for L1, L2, and N and then your new (appropriately sized) wire would be for G. They wouldn't be in the same conduit or insulation, and there's no way it would be code compliant, but it would involve minimal damage or modification to the house and would be very easy to revert back to normal when it's time to move out.
 
... They wouldn't be in the same conduit or insulation, and there's no way it would be code compliant, but it would involve minimal damage or modification to the house and would be very easy to revert back to normal when it's time to move out.

Thanks for bringing that up...I forget I have that exact same scenario at my house and have always assumed it was code-compliant because I don't believe there has been any DIY electrical work in that regard.

My house is somewhat older and still has a number of non-grounding 120V receptacles. However, some time back the house was fitted with dual fuel (electric plenum heaters installed and have natural gas furnace) and the service panel upgraded to handle it. All this was done before I bought the place. A number of the easily accessible receptacles had been converted to grounding by running individual grounding wires as you suggested. I couldn't ask the previous owner if the grounding was done at the same time as the dual fuel or some other time because he was/is deceased.

The panel has state inspection stickers on it and no work has been done since that time so, again, I've always assumed it's legit.
 
whoaru99 - you may be 100% right, I have no idea. I made a bold assumption that the setup wouldn't be code compliant as the conductors are split and don't share the same conduit/sheathing/anything. I know little to nothing about the actual letter of the code though, so maybe code doesn't care about it.
 
Hopefully we can get P-J who is up to date with code compliance to chime in but that could be an option. It looks like the dryer plug was installed not too long ago and the dryer outlet box is actually screwed to the side of the main panel so maybe there is a way to pigtail a ground. I move in 3 weeks and will have to check this all out.
 
Probably. The panel itself is seldom the question. How to wire to existing non-grounding circuits is generally the topic of concern.

Well I am going to have to run new wire from the circuit breaker to make this work. Going to run that first and then work on getting the panel.
 
It looks like the dryer plug was installed not too long ago and the dryer outlet box is actually screwed to the side of the main panel so maybe there is a way to pigtail a ground. I move in 3 weeks and will have to check this all out.

If that's the case then all you should need to do is replace the 10-30 receptacle with a 14-30, get a couple feet of 10ga green or bare wire for connecting the main panel grounding bus to the grounding pole of the 14-30, and the 4-wire dryer cord and you should be set. $30, give or take, the bulk of that cost in the 14-30P dryer cord.
 
That is what I figured, but the real question is, is it compliant with NEC code?
 
Yes, if you're replacing the existing 10-30 receptacle with a 14-30 receptacle and adding the appropriate gauge grounding wire from the main panel grounding bus to the receptacle grounding pole it is completely NEC compliant.

This is with respect to the receptacle you mentioned that's attached to the main/breaker box, right? We're not talking any exposed grounding wires?
 
I could easily run the grounding wire through the same conduit already used for the 3 prong dryer outlet since it is only about 1-2 feet of wire. Therefore as long as the grounding wire is secured to the grounding bus in the breaker and to the L14-20 it should all me compliant?
 
Yup, should be. Maybe it's just a typo but typically they're 14-30, but I suppose could be 14-20 if that's all the dryer required for circuit size.
 
I am in a similar situation as the original post. I want to GFCI protect my dryer/brewery outlet, which is currently a 3 prong with no ground. I got an estimate from an electrician to install a GFCI breaker in the box, run the new 10/3 wire w/ ground to the outlet and convert it to a 4 prong, which was VERY expensive on the labor side. Has anyone tried the layout and had success, P-J described using the 3 wires in the existing outlet (hot hot neutral) running it to a spa panel, connecting the neutral to neutral inside, and then neutral to ground out, therefore accommodating a 4 prong GFCI protected receptacle? I'm thinking my electrician would steer me away from this since it is much cheaper and much more of a DIY project
any advice will help
Thanks
 
I am in a similar situation as the original post. I want to GFCI protect my dryer/brewery outlet, which is currently a 3 prong with no ground. I got an estimate from an electrician to install a GFCI breaker in the box, run the new 10/3 wire w/ ground to the outlet and convert it to a 4 prong, which was VERY expensive on the labor side. Has anyone tried the layout and had success, P-J described using the 3 wires in the existing outlet (hot hot neutral) running it to a spa panel, connecting the neutral to neutral inside, and then neutral to ground out, therefore accommodating a 4 prong GFCI protected receptacle? I'm thinking my electrician would steer me away from this since it is much cheaper and much more of a DIY project
any advice will help
Thanks

Here is what I have posted before, inspired by this and other threads:

Duck and cover, lol. First, these are my impressions given prior discussions and what I have been able to find. Second, I am not an electrician, but I am a reasonable logician. Third, my intent is to dispassionately look at the issues, not to attack anyone, and not to impugn anyone's character.

If you can run a dedicated ground from the main panel to the spa panel, or rewire with 4 wires from the main panel, then do it. That is a clean solution.

Now, if you are going to wire the spa panel with H-H-N in, bond the N and G to the spa panel chassis, run H-H-N-G out to the control panel, and wire both 120V and 240V in your control panel:

Will it work? Yes.

Does it conform to code? If you were to hardwire it as part of your house wiring, it does not conform to code, as the spa panel is not a grandfathered device that allows bonding N and G (more precisely, allows connecting the frame of the device to neutral, and using the neutral as the grounding conductor for that device). If you were to make the spa panel a "pluggable" device, you have not changed your house wiring, so you have not violated code with your house wiring. However, you have built a device (the spa panel) that does not qualify as grandfathered, and certainly violates the spirit of the code if not the letter.

Is it dangerous? Risk is relative. In a worst case scenario, say your control panel neutral comes loose and gets good contact with your control panel ground, and the GFCI in the spa panel fails, your spa panel chassis could be conducting 120V. If you were touching it and you were the shortest path to ground, then you would carry the current. This may be unlikely, but it is basically a variation of the scenario that led the NEC to change the code and require a dedicated ground wire. Incidentally, if you have a 3-wire dryer or range, the same scenario is possible if the neutral is compromised and you become the ground path. One could argue that these pose even more risk, because there is no GFCI protection to detect that the neutral is compromised and kill the power.

Understand the risks, and make your own decision. I would say you should really try to go with a dedicated ground. If you choose to use the 3-in, 4-out, spa panel solution, recognize that you are taking some risks that you can mitigate some by always testing that your GFCI is functioning, by putting the spa panel somewhere where neither you nor anyone else is likely to touch it while energized, and by neither selling, lending, nor giving the system to anyone else who does not understand the risks.

I sincerely hope that I succeeded in my attempt to discuss this issue in a balanced manner.
 
...
I sincerely hope that I succeeded in my attempt to discuss this issue in a balanced manner.
I really like your respose: However, I'd also like to talk out some issues that I see with your post.

If you care to do that PM me your 'stuff' and I'll call you.

Just saying.
 
Awesome answer Jeff. Thanks. The whole purpose of having the GFCI would be more worry free safety so cutting corners wouldnt be worth it. I'll have to get some better electrician estimates for putting in a dedicated breaker. He was padding himself for time I think (6 hours to put in a breaker, run 25 feet of wire, 9 of which is behind a wall, and installing a new receptacle)
 
If you care to do that PM me your 'stuff' and I'll call you.

Just saying.

Hi P-J I've got a really silly question that I need a brighter mind to answer but your PM's are turned off =(

You had sent me an AWESOME diagram a couple of weeks ago and I had a question about something on there.
 
I really like your respose: However, I'd also like to talk out some issues that I see with your post.

If you care to do that PM me your 'stuff' and I'll call you.

Just saying.

P-J, I would be happy discuss it as I am always open to learning. That said, you don't appear to accept PMs.
 
I am wondering by your diagram P-J, do you have the neutral from the receptacle and the GFCI neutral lugged together? Having some challenges comprehending it. Looks like you have a separate neutral crossing from the neutral bar to the grounding bar.

Is that correct?
 
Holy dead thread...

This is how to turn a 3 wire supply into a 4 wire run to your panel. Here's how it goes...

Hot A and Hot B cary through the breaker - pretty simple.

Neutral goes to the terminal block (yellow wire going to block shown on left). The GFCI breaker has a neutral pig-tail, which is that curly white wire. It also goes to the terminal block (shown on left). Lastly, a jumper is run from the Neutral terminal block over to the ground terminal block. Ground and Neutral are normally bonded at the MAIN panel, but if you only have a 3 wire supply and you can't go and put in a new 4 wire outlet run all the way back to the main panel, this is the best way to go.

On the load side - the neutral line ties into the breaker (yellow wire coming out of the breaker), and the ground goes to your ground terminal (Green wire).
 
I currently am dealing with the same issue. I've had two electricians take a look and they both said I need a service upgrade (current 100amp panel is maxed out - not sure if they did a true load calculation as I was at work when they came to give the estimate). Either way the estimates for service upgrade + running new line for 4 prong 30 amp outlet with gfci were both $2,500. This is way more than what I had expected but the fault is on me for not doing the research before I started my build. I would really love to be able to run an 'extension cord' for lack of a better term from my 3-prong dryer outlet to a spa panel in my garage (around 50ft or so).

I'm not so worried about code requirements as I am about safety. Does anyone know if there is actually a higher risk of electrocution or other danger going this route if something were to happen? Safety is top propriety for me - however if this is just a matter of being compliant with code then I will definitely go this route. When I asked both electricians about this they said "As a licensed electrician, I cannot comment about the safety of a configuration that isn't up to code". Their response is completely reasonable and I get where they are coming from.

Either way if anyone has any insight regarding safety implications, if any, that would be great.

:::sorry for the long winded version of a simple basic question:::
 
With a lot of google I upgraded my own service to 200 amps. I even had it inspected and passed. It wasn't too expensive at all. Is your service underground? That would make a huge difference...
 
I currently am dealing with the same issue. I've had two electricians take a look and they both said I need a service upgrade (current 100amp panel is maxed out - not sure if they did a true load calculation as I was at work when they came to give the estimate). Either way the estimates for service upgrade + running new line for 4 prong 30 amp outlet with gfci were both $2,500. This is way more than what I had expected but the fault is on me for not doing the research before I started my build. I would really love to be able to run an 'extension cord' for lack of a better term from my 3-prong dryer outlet to a spa panel in my garage (around 50ft or so).

I'm not so worried about code requirements as I am about safety. Does anyone know if there is actually a higher risk of electrocution or other danger going this route if something were to happen? Safety is top propriety for me - however if this is just a matter of being compliant with code then I will definitely go this route. When I asked both electricians about this they said "As a licensed electrician, I cannot comment about the safety of a configuration that isn't up to code". Their response is completely reasonable and I get where they are coming from.

Either way if anyone has any insight regarding safety implications, if any, that would be great.

:::sorry for the long winded version of a simple basic question:::

Take a look at post 2 in this thread, as I tried to lay out the safety issues there. https://www.homebrewtalk.com/f170/3-wire-240v-spa-panel-4-wire-out-again-372667/
 
Jeffmeh - Thanks - this is exactly what I was looking for. Never thought about running a dedicated ground from the main panel to the spa, that sounds like the most cost effective way/safe way to go - great suggestion.
 
Holy dead thread...

This is how to turn a 3 wire supply into a 4 wire run to your panel. Here's how it goes...

Hot A and Hot B cary through the breaker - pretty simple.

Neutral goes to the terminal block (yellow wire going to block shown on left). The GFCI breaker has a neutral pig-tail, which is that curly white wire. It also goes to the terminal block (shown on left). Lastly, a jumper is run from the Neutral terminal block over to the ground terminal block. Ground and Neutral are normally bonded at the MAIN panel, but if you only have a 3 wire supply and you can't go and put in a new 4 wire outlet run all the way back to the main panel, this is the best way to go.

On the load side - the neutral line ties into the breaker (yellow wire coming out of the breaker), and the ground goes to your ground terminal (Green wire).

Installing a spa panel doesn't turn a 3-wire supply into a 4-wire equipment grounding supply. Sure, you have four wires coming out but it's only an illusion of the purpose of a 4-wire supply which is to have a fully dedicated equipment/safety grounding conductor.

One can just as well keep only the three wires and pretend there is an equipment grounding conductor as the benefit of the fourth wire in that type of setup is all in the imagination.
 
At the end of the day, the ground and neutral are bonded at the main panel, right? So to me it seems logical that running a dedicated ground from the main panel is the best option. Doing the 3-to-4 conversion at the Spa Panel is the second best option. Just pretending you have a ground and basically bonding your ground and neutral at the control panel is the third and worst option.

It seems that the location of where your ground and neutral are bonded is the defining factor. The closer to the main panel (and further from you, the user, at the brewery panel) the better. If this is the case, then I would disagree with whoaru99 that there is no benefit in going the 3-to-4 route over just going the make-believe route. You're getting the ground/neutral bond further from you and closer to the main panel, where it should be, and hopefully reducing the resistance in the to-ground path such that stray voltage runs to ground and not to you.

Don't get me wrong - still not the best way to do it. And for the sake of "I know it's not code but is it safe" - codes are written for safety, and are modified when those who write the codes determine that there's a gap in safety. So you really can't split the two without coming up with your own definition of what "safe" is. Some people walk tight-ropes across the grand canyon without a harness or rope - everyone has their own idea of safety, but the national code seems to be the best bet for what an acceptable definition of "safe" is.

-Kevin
 
......So you really can't split the two without coming up with your own definition of what "safe" is. Some people walk tight-ropes across the grand canyon without a harness or rope - everyone has their own idea of safety, but the national code seems to be the best bet for what an acceptable definition of "safe" is.

-Kevin
My two or three cents: Many participants in this forum come here for electrical advice because they are electrical novices. For the sake of their safety, the NEC should determine what "safe" is.

One major component of the definition of a safety ground is that it NOT be a current carrying conductor. A 120vac circuit requires a neutral, current carrying conductor. They can not be the same piece of wire and still provide the safety factor built into these requirements.

Most of these discussions center around wiring for e-brewing. Moisture, electricity and humans can be a deadly combination and the NEC has many sections related to the subject. Their are many lesser known/discussed requirements of the NEC that present the opportunity for not being followed in many novice ebrewing builds. Such as liquid and or vapor tight conduit and fitting use, wiring practices/conventions, and enclosure and component requirements, to name a few. Ignoring the fundamental grounding standards can greatly increase the hazard factor associated with not complying with these lesser requirements.

I firmly believe that providing an electrical novice with any advice other than "follow the NEC" is a mistake. But that's me.:)
 
raouliii, - (and others on the same band wagon)

With all of the "code" quoting going on, you all need to explain to everyone just how a 3 wire dryer outlet functions. The dryers have 120V and 240V devices within them. The same applies to electric stove outlets set up pre 2004. The outlets in use were installed pre 2004 and are to NEC code. What is being delivered is 240V and neutral. The plugin device (dryer or range) is also using the neutal conductor as equipment ground.

Please explain it all to the electrical novices.

geeze...
 
I believe you've explained well enough. The fact remains that the NEC was changed in this area to increase safety. The functionality is certainly the same between the 3 and 4 wire schemes, but the 3 wire receptacle is less forgiving of faults occuring in the device plugged into it or the human building and operating that device.

A major difference here is that the dryers and stoves plugged into these grandfathered, 3 wire (H-H-N/G) receptacles are UL listed, manufacturer designed appliances.

The appliances being developed by e-brewers are much less likely to follow design standards that are incorporated into these retail appliances.

The fundamental safety that a separate ground provides in this situation is of primary importance, especially when it is associated with an electrical novice building an e-brew system.
 
P-J,

I got this spa panel and wired it according to your drawing, and tested the outlets with a meter. All was good until I tried the GFCI test button. Nothing happened. Am I to assume the GFCI is faulty in the breaker, or could I have wired something up wrong? The only thing I wasn't sure of was the ground to neutral wire. Does that go in to the bar or under one of the large screws on the bottom left? Does it matter? I see the GFCI went in to the neutral bar and was pre-wired that way out of the box.

Thanks for the help!



Here is the wiring setup you need to run from a 3 prong dryer outlet. You can mount a 4 prong outlet directly in the Spa Panel.
Link to the panel: HomeDepot - GE 50A 240V Spa Panel


power-panel-6.jpg



Hope this helps you.
 
P-J,

I got this spa panel and wired it according to your drawing, and tested the outlets with a meter. All was good until I tried the GFCI test button. Nothing happened. Am I to assume the GFCI is faulty in the breaker, or could I have wired something up wrong? The only thing I wasn't sure of was the ground to neutral wire. Does that go in to the bar or under one of the large screws on the bottom left? Does it matter? I see the GFCI went in to the neutral bar and was pre-wired that way out of the box.

Thanks for the help!
Is there some way that you can show me how you have it wired? A picture?

P-J
 
P-J,

I am hopefully attaching a picture. I got a new breaker, and that fixed the GFCI issue. Expect for the fact it popped as soon as gave it power. When I removed the wire connecting the ground to the neutral, it worked just fine. Except now it's not grounded as far as I can tell. I may just run a wire from the ground bar to a copper water pipe about 5' away. Does that make sense? The wires coming in on the right are for the new outlet. The ones on the left are from the dryer outlet. Here's the picture without the bridge between the neutral and the ground:

20131231_182801.jpg
 
The neutral to ground connection should be placed between the neutral buss (lower left) and the ground buss (upper right).
Do not make that connection from the neutral output side of the GFCI breaker.
 
That's what I had. The above picture, plus the wire between the two busses, but that kept causing the breaker to trip.

Sent from my SCH-I535 using Home Brew mobile app
 
That's what I had. The above picture, plus the wire between the two busses, but that kept causing the breaker to trip.
Something is not right. Perhaps there is a ground fault somewere in your contol panel? Try disconecting the load output side going to the controller at the controller.
 
Actually, I don't have a control box yet. There's nothing plugged in to the new outlet yet. Hopefully it will be here in the next week or two. I am just trying to get ready for its arrival.

Sent from my SCH-I535 using Home Brew mobile app
 
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