I'm done with AG.

Today has been a nightmare. I'm done..it just isn't worth it to be wasting my time and money on something there is/can be so much variation on. I keep spending more money in hopes that things will improve but with a zero return on my investment I'm spending more money that saving at this point. I mean the whole point to AG is to have more "control". But what I didn't realize so much was that with more "control" comes more things that can go wrong and more things you can f*ck up. So after three batches of AG, I'm going back to PM's. Kudos to those of you who really have this down...but it's just too much damned time and money to risk.
If anyone wants to know this recipe was a Hefe
7lbs wheat
4 lb pilsner
.5 lb rice hulls

Converted 5 gallon round cooler with SS braid.

Protein rest at 122 for 30 about .90 qt per pound
Sacharification at 155 1.70 quart per pound
batch sparge 170 with 2.5 gallons x 2
There was a total of about 8 gallons put in with which I got about 6 gallons out. I had to add some water a couple times to get my temps right. Then I topped off to about 6.5 gallons as on my previous batches I've burned off almost 2 gallons. This time was much different.

hallertau at 45 and 15

Pre boil OG was 1.033
Post boil was 1.041

So now I'm bringing everything back to boil for another half hour or so to bring the volume down and I'm going to supplement with some DME to get my gravity where it should be. So anyway...just thought I'd share as I keep hearing that once you go AG...
To me it's just not worth it. My PM's are still the best beers I've made to date and it's much easier to handle.


Dan

Dude, that's too bad that you are packing it in. I feel for you.

I have to say, though -- before you do, try a dead simple recipe (single infusion, no wheat, and say 1.040 gravity so you only have to sparge once). Also make sure your crush is good, and see how it goes.

My AG beers are SO much better than my extract beers. Maybe I am just a bad extract brewer, but I doubt it. I really do think there is something to AG. Just give it one more go.

FlyGuy said:

Dude, that's too bad that you are packing it in. I feel for you.

I have to say, though -- before you do, try a dead simple recipe (single infusion, no wheat, and say 1.040 gravity so you only have to sparge once). Also make sure your crush is good, and see how it goes.

My AG beers are SO much better than my extract beers. Maybe I am just a bad extract brewer, but I doubt it. I really do think there is something to AG. Just give it one more go.

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The thing with the crush is that I rely on AHB to crush my stuff and the past two brews the crush was apparently bad. I'm not about to spend more money on a grain mill because I don't have the money or the space.
I'm not really packing it in, per se, because I will still be using all the equipment I have now. My first AG was a really simple one and it didn't come out any better than any of my extract brews. To this date the PM's Ive done are the best beers I've made. That and there is consistency and I can rely on the beer to come out as I expected.

nobody likes a quitter now!

can i have your stuff?

Im not sure i follow.....your description in your post sounds fine....what went wrong here...you missed your anticipated OG?

Yeast Infection said:

...you missed your anticipated OG?

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with 7lbs of wheat and 4 lbs of pilsener, lots of people will have a hard time with efficiency

If you suspect that your LHBS is badly crushing your grain, have them run it through their mill twice.

But honestly, I think you are just having a run of bad luck. Just give it one more shot with a straightforward recipe. If it turns out well, you will be very glad.

I speak from an analogous form of experience -- when I started brewing (extract) I developed a contamination in my equipment from a spoiled, locally-produced no-boil wort kit. I ruined 3 or 4 batches of beer in a row, and was about to pack it in. But my brew buddies forced me to keep trying. They lent me some gear until I could replace my own, and I nailed a couple batches that I really enjoyed. Now I am totally digging all grain brewing, and things keep progressing with the hobby. I am really glad I never quite. Anyways, didn't mean to talk about me -- I just wanted to lend some encouragement, like my buddies did for me.

Yeast Infection said:

Im not sure i follow.....your description in your post sounds fine....what went wrong here...you missed your anticipated OG?

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Missed my OG, would up with too much wort and didn't realize it until after I had cooled and transferred to primary..so now I'm boiling again to boil off some volume and get my OG up to where it should be. There's a bit more to the brew day than this, but I've been up since 6am brewing and it's now 1:30 and I have another hour or so. It's just too much time and hassle for beers that aren't any better than my PM's. Like I said though, kudos to you guys that can consistently do AG. After three crappy AG attempts I'm going for the sure thing.

And no, you can't have my stuff..I'm not quitting..just stepping down a level on the "crafting" of my beers.


Dan

sorry about the "can i have your stuff thread." dude, its not that hard, you're probably just over thinking it. we can get you through this, or Ill even give you my cell phone number and walk you through it.


just dont give up.......


1st things 1st.....do you have ProMash or some other brewing software?

Chimone said:

with 7lbs of wheat and 4 lbs of pilsener, lots of people will have a hard time with efficiency

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I had my brewhouse efficiency set at 60% and still missed it. Brewsmith shows me at 53%.


Dan

FlyGuy said:

If you suspect that your LHBS is badly crushing your grain, have them run it through their mill twice.

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Sounds like he's getting his grain online (AHB = Austin Homebrew?). If that's the case, not much he can do. No way I'd be doing AG without at least a LHBS to argue with about how the grains are crushed.

Chimone said:

sorry about the "can i have your stuff thread." dude, its not that hard, you're probably just over thinking it. we can get you through this, or Ill even give you my cell phone number and walk you through it.


just dont give up.......

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I should have put a smiley face with my answer to the gear stuff..no need to apologize

My problem is that with a new baby, college and work, I don't have the time to waste. I really need a sure thing. Although this Hefe should turn out fine, it's just a lot of hassle. I love brewing and there's no way I'd ever quit...but right now I just don't have the time or patience. Although if I can get a couple good PM's under my belt I might give it a shot again when I have some time.


Dan

Willsellout said:

I had my brewhouse efficiency set at 60% and still missed it. Brewsmith shows me at 53%.


Dan

Click to expand...

With wheat and Pilsner there aren't that many enzymes there in the first place to convert the malt. Plus whenever I do a hefe, my efficiency drops a bit when I use that much wheat anyways.


try another one and use 90% 2-row and see how you do. Plus who cares what the hydrometer says.....how does your finished beer taste. Is it drinkable at least? I mean thats a start


just like everything else, its can be intimidating at first......but theres really nothing to it. Just a couple more things to check off the to-do list as you go.

Bike N Brew said:

Sounds like he's getting his grain online (AHB = Austin Homebrew?). If that's the case, not much he can do. No way I'd be doing AG without at least a LHBS to argue with about how the grains are crushed.

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That's the tough part. I called AHB the last recipe I made and told them my routine and suggested it might be the crush and he said that it was that I was draining my batch sparge too quickly. Everything I've read says that with batch sparges, it doesn't matter how quickly you drain...but even so, I drained slow today and had the same efficiency problems.



Dan

Dan, it takes a special kind of person to stay AG. The love of the hobby makes us want to achieve the best it can be. Going all-grain does mean
more control and more to control. It doesn't mean your beers are going to be any better. If your good ,consistent and comfortable with PM then that's your gig. Stay with what makes you feel good about what your doing.

AG is always challenging and in my opinion, that's the fun and motivation.
I'm the kind of guy that likes the challeges AG provides. I have had a few bad brew days myself but it made me more determined to overcome the issue/issues of the day and press on. Control can really be achieved once you truely understand your setups capabilities and short comings. Having the basics down you will eventually achieve your goals but you have to learn what you can and can not do with your setup. This takes time, patience and money.

Chimone said:

With wheat and Pilsner there aren't that many enzymes there in the first place to convert the malt. Plus whenever I do a hefe, my efficiency drops a bit when I use that much wheat anyways.


try another one and use 90% 2-row and see how you do. Plus who cares what the hydrometer says.....how does your finished beer taste. Is it drinkable at least? I mean thats a start

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Well my last brew which I was way off on my OG, was a blonde. I'm drinking it now after a month in the fermenters and two weeks conditioning and it's definitely a good beer. It should age really well. It turned into a nice lawnmower beer.
So another Hefe using 90% two row and 10% wheat?


Dan

wait a sec, your a Boston fan....


Ok, I take back what I offered earlier

Chimone said:

wait a sec, your a Boston fan....


Ok, I take back what I offered earlier

Click to expand...

Can't we all just get along?




Dan

Willsellout said:

So another Hefe using 90% two row and 10% wheat?


Dan

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oh for a Hefe.....My recipe uses 50% wheat 45% Pils and 5% Munich. I dont do too bad with efficiency


I meant just do a normal beer recipe with 90% 2-row just to see what you can get......sorry

lawnmower beer? WTF is that?

Chimone said:

oh for a Hefe.....My recipe uses 50% wheat 45% Pils and 5% Munich. I dont do too bad with efficiency


I meant just do a normal beer recipe with 90% 2-row just to see what you can get......sorry

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Can I do a simple IPA with a percentage like that?


Dan

98EXL said:

lawnmower beer? WTF is that?

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A summer beer...refreshing, low alcohol content. At least that's what I've gathered.

All my recipes below are pretty simple. You might just be one-more-brew-away from that magic moment.

Many of my efficiency problems went away when I started ordering my stuff from Midwest. Any major on-line provider will be set up to deliver consistent crushes and ingredients.

How bout giving it one-more go with a simple Pale Ale recipe and let us coach you along. I (we) hate to see you pack it in when maybe there is just one thing you could do different to turn things around.

At least you're not giving up on brewing so...brew on bro.

AG is a much bigger challenge, but I think that is why most people that do it enjoy it. I would have to agree with some of the others here and say try doing a few simple AG's before tackling something like a hefe with multiple rests. I've been doing AG for 5 or 6 years now and I rarely do a multiple step mash. I have the ability, but it is just more work than I'm willing to put in most days. Do some simple APA's or Stouts and get the whole process down. Get used to inspecting the crush and getting familar with your system. When you can recreate the same beer twice with the desired result, then try tackling something more complicated. I have yet to do a decoction mash. I'm usually happy just to survive a simple infusion mash with mashout.

Time wise, plan on a 8 hour day. I do everytime. If if takes me 5 great. I stopped brewing for 2 years after my second child was born. Just didn't have that amount of time to set a side. Just don't up and quit. Take a step back and go slow.

Yeah, you can do an IPA with 90-95% 2-row, no problems. Toss in a bit of Crystal 40-60l and hop the crap out of it.

Willsellout said:

A summer beer...refreshing, low alcohol content. At least that's what I've gathered.

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oh, I thought it was a brew to drink on the mower....I drink BMC on it in case I get grass clippings in it

Willsellout said:

Can I do a simple IPA with a percentage like that?


Dan

Click to expand...

you can do a really tasty APA for sure. With an IPA you may want to go a little more in depth IMO. Doesn't mean it couldn't be done though

98EXL said:

lawnmower beer? WTF is that?

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AKA, session bear.

Low ABV...allowing a person to stop in a pub after work and enjoy a session (some conversation over a beer) and still go home relatively sober.

Lawnmower tends to be the Americanized phrase...a cold low alcohol beer you can enjoy and still operate your lawnmower and get other chores around the house done.

Though I refrain from drinking anything until power tools and machinery are put away.

BierMuncher said:

AKA, session bear.

Low ABV...allowing a person to stop in a pub after work and enjoy a session (some conversation over a beer) and still go home relatively sober.

Lawnmower tends to be the Americanized phrase...a cold low alcohol beer you can enjoy and still operate your lawnmower and get other chores around the house done.

Though I refrain from drinking anything until power tools and machinery are put away.

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he he, thanks

I have a funny story about HB, .22 caliber rounds, and an Natty Boh can from yesterday. It's OT, I'll save it for later

/OT

It can be frustrating. But the possible frustration leads to a bigger smile of satisfaction when it works.

You can make some awesome beers with extract or partial mash tho, so good luck to you with whatever you choose.

So, I am new to AG too, but I thought I might throw something out that could help...

Do you make any corrections for pH?
I know some people see >10% increase in efficiency when they get that straight. I have done one AG and used Five Stars pH5.2, my efficiency came out to 68%, but other things went kind of wrong.

Also, I buy from Austin Homebrew. I think their crush is OK, I guess it could be finer but it is not as bad as some pictures I have seen posted here.

As far as batch sparging, I think you want to drain as fast as possible, no need to wait around and let the temp drop. When you fly sparge you do have to go slower.

Beerrific said:

So, I am new to AG too, but I thought I might throw something out that could help...

Do you make any corrections for pH?
I know some people see >10% increase in efficiency when they get that straight. I have done one AG and used Five Stars pH5.2, my efficiency came out to 68%, but other things went kind of wrong.

Also, I buy from Austin Homebrew. I think their crush is OK, I guess it could be finer but it is not as bad as some pictures I have seen posted here.

As far as batch sparging, I think you want to drain as fast as possible, no need to wait around and let the temp drop. When you fly sparge you do have to go slower.

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I actually used the 5 star as well on this batch. I honestly think the crush isn't fine enough for my system. Also I need to convert my 10 gallon cooler, because the 5 gallon ran out of space today...man it was a rough brew day.

OK, so I will order ingredients for a simple APA. 90% 2 row and what else? Anyone have a tasty recipe? I'm think some Summit and Amarillo hops?


Dan

OK so I boiled for another hour, cooled and transferred to primary. Wound up with just under 5 gallons and an OG of 1.047. I ran out of O2 while aerating...par for the course today I suppose.
I honestly didn't think a Hefe was that complicated, but after doing the multi step...I am thinking differently. Especially with my 5 gallon cooler, I would have had better luck with the 10 gal.



Dan

Before you give up, give my Haus Pale Ale a try. Brain Dead Simple with dry yeast and a single infusion.

EdWort said:

Before you give up, give my Haus Pale Ale a try. Brain Dead Simple with dry yeast and a single infusion.

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Yeah, don't give up yet. . . My last several batches have been single infusion, and there are some pretty nice dry strains out there now--- I call these confidence-building batches.

My .02 worth on this-- It took me awhile to really dial in my system. In the meanwhile, I had a lot of frustrations, effeciency problems, etc. Trouble shoot your methods, figure out your dead spaces, your water volumes, boil times, and ALWAYS do a LOONNNNNG sparge (the longer the better), and I think you'll find more satisfaction.

AG is not hard, but there's a learning curve that few can master after just 3 batches.

Good luck!

I've been doing AG for years and still do PM for most of my batches. I save AG for recipes (like BRR) that have high levels of adjuncts, specialty grains or are just small. I know homebrewers that have brewed for decades & never gone to AG. I've mentioned the Collaborator project Widmer runs, at least one of this year's selection was an extract recipe. That's common.

This is supposed to be a fun hobby. Obsessing over AG isn't my idea of fun. If you get good results with PM, do it that way.

I'll accept that maybe AG isn't for everyone but you owe it to yourself to give it a couple more tries. Forget the step mash.

I had a similar moment of distress when I hacked up a stout recipe (2nd all grain) and used too many unfermentables. I kegged it 3 months ago and still have 4.5 gallons in the keg. However, my first and third (IPA and Pilsner respectively) were totally drinkable and better than any extracts. Finally, the 4th was my favorite brew to date.. an American Amber. You just have to persist.

EdWort said:

Before you give up, give my Haus Pale Ale a try. Brain Dead Simple with dry yeast and a single infusion.

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Yes, I second this recommendation. I have done this brew twice now, and it is great. The more recent version was done with Amarillo hops instead of Cascade, and it is fantastic. I am (literally) working on a pint right now.

This is as simple and tasty a recipe as you will find!

But the frustration is half the fun. I would do what makes it fun, if all grain isn't fun, then I see no reason to stick with it.