How to control the boil with a heating element

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NTabb

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Guys,

I'm building an electric setup very close to Kal's, but I'm using the BCS-460 instead of a control panel. (by the way Kai, I'm going to owe you alot of beer for that info) My question is how do you control the boil with a 5500W element? If I wanted to brew a small 6 gallon batch I would have to imagine the boiloff would be too much without some type "dimming" solution.
 
I do have one thought. Could it be as easy as setting the element to turn off when the boiling water hits 213F or 214F and then turns on again when it drop below 212?
 
It doesn't quite work like that. Water comes to the boiling point (212°F +/- depending on altitude & atmospheric pressure) and boils at that temperature until ...
The temperature is the same throughout the entire time. You control the strength of the boil by regulating the amount of energy being delivered to the water.

I know how to do this with a PID but someone else will have to chime in regarding the BCS-460.
 
If I wanted to brew a small 6 gallon batch I would have to imagine the boiloff would be too much without some type "dimming" solution.

Boil off is not you're worry, getting burned is. My 4500 watt element will throw a 6 gallon boil in yo face in a 15 gallon pot if you don't crank it down.
 
My friend is trying to put together an e-kettle and this is his question as well - do you need a control panel or something fancy like that to regulate a 4500w/240 element? No such thing as a " heavy duty dimmer switch" type of thing to regulate power?
 
When boiling, you don't care about temperature. You need to control the duty cycle of the heating element, which is a fancy term indicating the % time it's on.

For example, if your element was turned on for 7 seconds, then off 3 seconds, that's a duty cycle of 70% (7/10). Another fancy term is Pulse Width Modulation (PWM), which is simply controlling the power to something by controlling the duty cycle.

You probably are wondering "why not just lower the power to the element"? Regulating that much power is not simple due to the huge heat dissipation that would result. Alternatively, turning it on and off (i.e., PWM) is really simple.

You need a PID with a manual mode (i.e., Auber SYL-2352) or a simple PWM ckt. These things allow you to set the duty cycle. Either way, this controller needs to be connected to a solid state relay (SSR), which is a big electronic switch that can be controlled with a small signal.
 
The BCS can control the duty cycle just like a PID. You just need to figure out what duty will maintain a good boil and tell it to do that.

The simplest way to control a boil kettle is with a pulse width modulating controller (PWM) connected to a solid state relay. You manually dial the duty cycle with a knob. Crank it to 100% to get to a boil, then adjust down to maintain a solid boil.
 
Just to be clear, if you get a BCS you don't need any additional control - it will do it all.

You will need solid state relays for any power supply that needs to be switched on and off by the bcs (heaters, pumps, etc)
 
Passesdpawn,

Would the Electric Kettle Controller http://www.highgravitybrew.com/productcart/pc/Electric-Kettle-Controller-306p3084.htm work as well? My understanding it treats the heating element like a stove. You can just limit the amount of power going to the element to maintain a nice boil.

Yes.

Although I've never seen one of those in person, I'm sure it is exactly what I described above. The dial allows you to control the duty cycle from 0 to 100%.
There is certainly a big SSR in there.

You could build one yourself for about half the cost, but you'd only be saving money if you do not value your time at all :)
 
Passesdpawn,

Would the Electric Kettle Controller http://www.highgravitybrew.com/productcart/pc/Electric-Kettle-Controller-306p3084.htm work as well? My understanding it treats the heating element like a stove. You can just limit the amount of power going to the element to maintain a nice boil.

I recently bought one, it works very well. I have the one that will run pumps and controllers. I'm no electrician, and it's a reasonably cheap way to go electric without having to build a full bore control panel.
 
BowWowz,

I do have a BCS460. I'm looking on the forum of Embedded Control now, but do you know off the top of your head how to control it.
 
I'm sorry, I don't know exactly how to do it - I am in the process of learning about it though. I am trying to decide if I should go with the BCS or not.

My thoughts are:

When programing the BCS process for boil you could have a state that takes the kettle temp up to some temp just below boiling (say 210F). At that point you could set a state to control the duty cycle of the element to a level that will bring it the rest of the way to boiling temp a bit more slowly (trial and error would be required to figure out what duty cycle is required - maybe try 50% to start). There is not way to do it based only on temperature because of the nature of boiling water - a light simmering boil is exactly the same temperature as a raging boil.

The details of programming the BCS will take some study but I think once you get the hang of it you will find it pretty easy.
 
by the way all the goodies can easily be purchased from Auber Instruments and at good prices. I never needed support myself but I hear that they have no problem fielding questions about their product. There are about 1000 happy customers here on HBT.
 
IMO the easiest way to control the boil w/ heating elements is to simply size the element to the boil and run it 100%. This discussion could lead one to believe that in order to boil w/ electric one needs a controller, pids, heat sinks, BCS 460's and other instruments. While not the best or most sophisticated it will certainly work running 100% as follows.

1. Connect power to proper sized element
2. Boil

Of course the downside here is that it will take longer to reach boil as you can't up the wattage to achieve boil and then reduce, not that big a deal IMO.
 
IMO the easiest way to control the boil w/ heating elements is to simply size the element to the boil and run it 100%. This discussion could lead one to believe that in order to boil w/ electric one needs a controller, pids, heat sinks, BCS 460's and other instruments. While not the best or most sophisticated it will certainly work running 100% as follows.

1. Connect power to proper sized element
2. Boil

Of course the downside here is that it will take longer to reach boil as you can't up the wattage to achieve boil and then reduce, not that big a deal IMO.

No disrespect intended, but isn't that kind of like saying a good way to prevent people from speeding is to remove the accelerator from cars and have them factory configured to run at 55mph? :D

Even if every time you brew you have the exact same volume, atmospheric conditions will change your boil. Not having the ability to adjust element is likely to lead to frustration.

You could use an over sized element and a simple on/off switch but IMO, that would be a pain.

Ed
 
IMO the easiest way to control the boil w/ heating elements is to simply size the element to the boil and run it 100%. This discussion could lead one to believe that in order to boil w/ electric one needs a controller, pids, heat sinks, BCS 460's and other instruments. While not the best or most sophisticated it will certainly work running 100% as follows.

1. Connect power to proper sized element
2. Boil

Of course the downside here is that it will take longer to reach boil as you can't up the wattage to achieve boil and then reduce, not that big a deal IMO.

Another problem with this approach is that it only gives you a couple of options for finding that "sweet spot" for your boiling needs, essentially you can choose between a 1500, 4500, or 5500 watt element. If none of those are able to acheive and maintain a good rolling boiling at your elevation and atmos. pressure then you're out of luck. I suppose you could get lucky and find that a 4500 watt element run at 100% gives you the perfect boil, but the whole point of a controller is to eliminate the guess work and give you the ability to adjust your boil to exactly where you like it.
 
IMO the easiest way to control the boil w/ heating elements is to simply size the element to the boil and run it 100%. This discussion could lead one to believe that in order to boil w/ electric one needs a controller, pids, heat sinks, BCS 460's and other instruments. While not the best or most sophisticated it will certainly work running 100% as follows.

1. Connect power to proper sized element
2. Boil

Of course the downside here is that it will take longer to reach boil as you can't up the wattage to achieve boil and then reduce, not that big a deal IMO.

This is the approach many distillers use with their electric kettles, but they have taken it a step further and usually run a 4500W to 5500W element at full bore to get up to a boil and then switch the element from 240V to 120V, effectively quartering the wattage of the element to maintain the boil.
 
IMO the easiest way to control the boil w/ heating elements is to simply size the element to the boil and run it 100%. This discussion could lead one to believe that in order to boil w/ electric one needs a controller, pids, heat sinks, BCS 460's and other instruments. While not the best or most sophisticated it will certainly work running 100% as follows.

1. Connect power to proper sized element
2. Boil

Of course the downside here is that it will take longer to reach boil as you can't up the wattage to achieve boil and then reduce, not that big a deal IMO.

I've been considering the simplistic approach to a dedicated boil kettle. What would you all consider the proper size element for 5 gallon batches? 6-6.5 gal boils... running at 100% with no PID...
 
OK Guys, I agree completely, that having a controller to precisely power the boiler element works very well I am sure. The point I am trying to make is that I am uncomfortable with it being represented that the only way to make an e-kettle work successfully is to use a controller. I boil around 10 gallons w/ 4000w without a controller. Of course some people have the time, knowledge, money, and technical savy to build a better more sophisticated system, but IMHO a simple e-kettle works pretty darn good for what it is.

Here is a list of various elements available, they're cheap.
http://www.plumbingsupply.com/elements.html

A simple e-kettle w/out a controller can work very well, of course this simple stripped down approach is not for everyone.:mug:
 
I've been considering the simplistic approach to a dedicated boil kettle. What would you all consider the proper size element for 5 gallon batches? 6-6.5 gal boils... running at 100% with no PID...

What type of kettle, I have a hunch the heavy keggles will need a bit more power than lighter pots, insulating the kettle will also reduce wattage needs.

3000w (2 elements at 1500w 120v) would be a good place to start for 5 gal. batches IME

http://www.plumbingsupply.com/elements.html

If 240v, the site above lists 3000w, and 3500w as well.
 
I have full intentions on building a control panel eventually, but I don't have the funds or the time to build what I want right now... so in the meantime my thoughts were to use a 5500 watt element @ 240 with no controller to get it close, then switch it to 120 which would drop it down to 1375 to hopefully maintain a boil. Then when I have the money and time to put into a control panel I can.

That being said, I doubt 1375 will maintain my boil though even if I insulate by pot...
 
OK Guys, I agree completely, that having a controller to precisely power the boiler element works very well I am sure. The point I am trying to make is that I am uncomfortable with it being represented that the only way to make an e-kettle work successfully is to use a controller. I boil around 10 gallons w/ 4000w without a controller. Of course some people have the time, knowledge, money, and technical savy to build a better more sophisticated system, but IMHO a simple e-kettle works pretty darn good for what it is.

Here is a list of various elements available, they're cheap.
http://www.plumbingsupply.com/elements.html

A simple e-kettle w/out a controller can work very well, of course this simple stripped down approach is not for everyone.:mug:

Sounds like you hit the sweet spot between batch size, kettle type/size, ambient temp, and element size. I think it's possible for others to do what you've done if they intentionally (slightly) underpower the BK....that way it WILL boil, it'll just sacrifice some time. Insulation helps with this. Alternatively, if you overpower the boil then you're in for trouble....and it could also affect the quality of your beer.
 
I have full intentions on building a control panel eventually, but I don't have the funds or the time to build what I want right now... so in the meantime my thoughts were to use a 5500 watt element @ 240 with no controller to get it close, then switch it to 120 which would drop it down to 1375 to hopefully maintain a boil. Then when I have the money and time to put into a control panel I can.

That being said, I doubt 1375 will maintain my boil though even if I insulate by pot...

70% duty on a 5500w element keeps my 13g boiling just right. That's roughly 4000W. Non-insulated SS keggle outdoors, 60F, on brick pavers.

So, scaling, roughly 2000W would be needed for the 6.5 gallon boil.

Of course, there are a lot of factors at play here. You might get away with 1375 if you have a very well insulated pot, including the bottom and the top.
 
I know this is getting a little complicated but still simple enough. Why not use two separate elements one 2000W and one 5500W both with the capability of switching between 240V and 120V. Surely with the eight possible wattage configurations you could get to a boil quickly and then maintain it and even be able to do different batch sizes.
 
... so in the meantime my thoughts were to use a 5500 watt element @ 240 with no controller to get it close, then switch it to 120 which would drop it down to 1375 to hopefully maintain a boil. ...






5500 / 4 or 1375w is not enough or even close. If you are going 240v, I would try the 3000w or 3500w element for a 5 gal batch. They are less than 10 bucks a piece.
 
I know this is getting a little complicated but still simple enough. Why not use two separate elements one 2000W and one 5500W both with the capability of switching between 240V and 120V. Surely with the eight possible wattage configurations you could get to a boil quickly and then maintain it and even be able to do different batch sizes.

At this point...may as well fashion a controller, no?
 
As simple as a PWM or PID circuit is why in the world would a person not want the control?

If you already have the 240v outlet you are looking at less than $100 to build a somple controller like the one mentioned above. The ability to turn the system on/off while standing at the kettle is very important to me.

And my opinion is no matter the batch size go with the 55kw element if you are controlling it. The cost nill compared to the other elements and you are already capable of upgrading your system to a larger boil.
 
I have full intentions on building a control panel eventually, but I don't have the funds or the time to build what I want right now... so in the meantime my thoughts were to use a 5500 watt element @ 240 with no controller to get it close, then switch it to 120 which would drop it down to 1375 to hopefully maintain a boil. Then when I have the money and time to put into a control panel I can.

That being said, I doubt 1375 will maintain my boil though even if I insulate by pot...

Wiring a PID would be almost as simple as wiring that switch you're talking about. If you're willing to wire up a switch in a small enclosure, why not save up the $50 or so dollars to skip right to a PID? The added benefits are exponential to the added cost/wiring.

I think some people are a bit discouraged by looking at some fancy control panels here, but I promise you that wiring a simple PID setup is far easier than all the beginners think. Trust me, I've been in those shoes before.

TB
 
OK Guys, I agree completely, that having a controller to precisely power the boiler element works very well I am sure. The point I am trying to make is that I am uncomfortable with it being represented that the only way to make an e-kettle work successfully is to use a controller. I boil around 10 gallons w/ 4000w without a controller. Of course some people have the time, knowledge, money, and technical savy to build a better more sophisticated system, but IMHO a simple e-kettle works pretty darn good for what it is.

Here is a list of various elements available, they're cheap.
http://www.plumbingsupply.com/elements.html

A simple e-kettle w/out a controller can work very well, of course this simple stripped down approach is not for everyone.:mug:

I've seen posts from folks doing the same thing... so I know it can be done. :mug:
I've also seen posts where folks wire in a switch or plug/unplug the element as needed.

I haven't built one, but I think the next step up is a PWM circuit. It requires some fairly inexpensive parts and a bit of assembly but they are VERY effective in a Boil Kettle... Basically provides you a knob to dial in the power you want to apply. I'm pretty sure Walker posted about building one, if you want to go searching. If you have a few bucks to put toward it and feel like tinkering, you might look into it.

Ed
 
I've seen posts from folks doing the same thing... so I know it can be done. :mug:
I've also seen posts where folks wire in a switch or plug/unplug the element as needed.

I haven't built one, but I think the next step up is a PWM circuit. It requires some fairly inexpensive parts and a bit of assembly but they are VERY effective in a Boil Kettle... Basically provides you a knob to dial in the power you want to apply. I'm pretty sure Walker posted about building one, if you want to go searching. If you have a few bucks to put toward it and feel like tinkering, you might look into it.

Ed

My first controller was PWM it was $7.99 from http://www.bakatronics.com/shop/item.aspx?itemid=383

That ans a wallwort are all that is necessary to fire the SSR you can put the entire setup into a plastic box from home depot for $20. They work VERY well.
 
My first controller was PWM it was $7.99 from http://www.bakatronics.com/shop/item.aspx?itemid=383

That ans a wallwort are all that is necessary to fire the SSR you can put the entire setup into a plastic box from home depot for $20. They work VERY well.

OK.. I'm sold on that one! Hell I even feel like an idiot now. I was reading about that PWM board on another thread about controlling the speed of a March Pump and never even though about using it to fire an SSR... Thanks Mr. Obvious, I guess I never "made the connection" :cross:

Here's the post about Walker's PWM if anyone's interested.
 
OK.. I'm sold on that one! Hell I even feel like an idiot now. I was reading about that PWM board on another thread about controlling the speed of a March Pump and never even though about using it to fire an SSR... Thanks Mr. Obvious, I guess I never "made the connection" :cross:

Here's the post about Walker's PWM if anyone's interested.

Just a thought you have to replace one of the capacitors in that circuit to slow down the timer in order to control otherwise the pulseing is way to fast for boil kettles. Do a search as I cannot remeber the exact value of that.

This is why we were banging you over the head about not wanting control...because it is this cheap and easy. Good Luck!
 
Also, if you just want to boil, you can probably skip all control and just plug it in. I have a 5500W element in my BK and a pulse modulator to control it, but I brewed the last three batches with the PWM cranked up to 100% on the boil. I could have just plugged it in and let it roll.

Interesting finding...."I could have just plugged it in and let it roll."
 
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