Aeration / Olive Oil / Efficiency

Went to a wedding yesterday and met a brewer for a good sized brewery (Very well known) in New England. I was talking to him about brewing and he asked how I aerated my wort. I told him that I've done fine using a sanitized spoon and mixing the hell out of it till my hand hurts too much to continue. He then told me not to worry about it. He said to either put one drop, no more, of olive oil into the beer or take a sanitized rag and wipe a ring of olive oil around the bucket and then pitch the yeast. Said it builds strong cell walls for the yeast and no aeration needed. No need to sanitize. I've never heard this before. Anyone else? Sounds odd, but considering the source, I'm going to give it a go this week.

Also, told him I was trying to get my efficiency up (about 68-70%). He said they plan most everything for 70% and big beers for approximately 60%. Made me feel better about my process.

That suprises me. You would think with the amount of grain that breweries go through, they'd want to improve their efficiency to 90+.

Oh god not this again.

If you look down to the similar threads box, you will see all the discussions we've had on that.

The "drop" you would need for your 5 gallon batch, you couldn't measure without precision scientific instruments. It's not a "drop" it is more moeasure in microns.

You will find that it is pretty impractical for a homebrewer to do, and that theory has been pretty shot down anyway...

There are much better ways to aerate that either adding oliveoil, or even beating the heck out of your arm.

Oxygen bottle and airstone



paint stirrer on a drill



The https://www.homebrewtalk.com/f51/cheap-easy-aeration-gadget-68218/




And the old faithful method of simply Shaking the carboys....



Warning to the new brewer

Before it progresses any further, once again I am going to add a Caveat to any n00b lurkers that any discussion which is to follow is just a theory. The process is just a theory as well, one that has little practical use to the homebrewer...there are plenty of better ways for us to get enough air into our beer, including an O2 bottle, aquarium pump, stirring with a slotted spoon, shaking, etc....

Please don't do like one of your predecesors on this forum who on their very first batch decided that he would try it based on one of these threads, and SINCE in his mind, that if 1 drop worked, a half bottle must work better....

Then of course posted an is my beer ruined thread....and forgot to mention for like an entire day's troubleshooting between several of us that he had dumped several TBS of oil in his beer.

Please if you are new to brewing, and don't understand the process of fermentation, what oxygen does to your wort and yeast, if you're just starting brewing, if you have only a couple beers under your belt...Please pass this thread by, or take it with a grain of salt....You have been warned!

So if your beer does end up oily and crappy, please don't start a thread wondering why your beer is ruined, just know that you shoulda listenend.


You may proceed.

Although we've had this discussion, has anyone actually done it? I can't remember.
If we are going to accept all other things like no secondary, no chill brewing, etc... we should probably give this a shot.

Maybe that means I should step up to the plate and to it. I remember reading the article about it in BYO and it recommended using a paper clip to dip in the oil.

Again, it really might not be worth the effort, but no reason to knock it until someone tries.

True true... who here has tried it?

The Pol said:

True true... who here has tried it?

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The guy that dumped half a bottle in his fermenter on his first batch well over a year ago and started an is my beer ruined thread, actually.

I dare you to.

Kaiser and a couple science wonks did a decent job of reading the thesis and noticing the holes in the argument, and the flaw in the experiment. https://www.homebrewtalk.com/f13/thesis-olive-oil-aeration-method-57627/

pjj2ba and Kaiser throw around words like Ergosterol and Acetyl CoA in discussing it here;

And a couple people mentioned trying it too iirc

https://www.homebrewtalk.com/f13/high-gravity-oxygen-olive-oil-55404/

Now, I'm not sure if I should try it. I've never had problems with fermentation using my methods. If so, only a small amount on a paper clip. The brewer was convinced it was a good idea and uses it when he brews at home and not at /for work.

I only ask because science has punched a lot of holes in the process of not chilling wort as well, among other things.

I do find it hard to beleive that this brewery is OK with 60-70% eff. when brewing on such a large scale.

I remember this, but I don't remember any one trying it.

I have access to pipette's down to .1µl, so I could do an experiment adding vary small amounts of Olive oil to a starter, easy.

Let's think up an experiment, an prove it once an for all.

I haven't tried oil specifically in a starter, or in the fermentor, as a replacement for proper aeration. However, I have messed around with some pretty oily ingredients, and through the use of some adjuvants have been able to prevent any lack of head issues. I have one more very oily experiment to test before I report my findings.

Bsquared said:

I remember this, but I don't remember any one trying it.

I have access to pipette's down to .1µl, so I could do an experiment adding vary small amounts of Olive oil to a starter, easy.

Let's think up an experiment, an prove it once an for all.

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Do it! You'd have to have side by side batches- exactly the same. Same starter, etc. One carboy gets aerated the traditional way, one gets one drop of olive oil. Same amount of yeast pitched- not a guestimate but an exact amount. Fermenters kept control in the same temperature environment.

When it's done, see what the attenuation is, what the flavor is, esters, etc.

My guess is that in a 5 gallon batch, you wouldn't see much of a difference. Maybe a very slight difference in the final attenuation.

I think in a brewery, aeration is time consuming, and probably expensive. A little olive oil could be a "magic" way to avoid that. In homebrewing, it's no big deal to splash the wort on the way into the fermenter, or to give it a shot of O2, or to aerate with an airstone while you're cleaning up. I don't see what the advantage using oil here would be, even if it is just as effective as aerating.

pjj2ba,
Probably a stupid question but did you or anybody try tiny amounts of tempe? In the other thread you mentioned it was loaded with ergosterols.

I agree with Yooper that it's not a big deal for small-batch homebrewers but I was considering doing something like this for yeast starters without using a stirplate.

There was a guy on the Brews and Views forum who did a blind taste test on beers aerated with OO and conventionally. The conventionally aerated beers won hands down. Also, I have read that New Belgium, who were first experimenting with the technique, stopped doing it due to decreased shelf life.

The Pol said:

True true... who here has tried it?

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I have. Purely anecdotally, I have experienced very vigorous fermentation in simple non-agitated starters with visually more yeast compared to a non-aerated, non-OO starter.

Okay, I always get my self into trouble after i've had a few. So I guess I'm doing an experiment.

So got in to the time machine and dug this up from Germany regarding Olive oil and New Belgian

Here is the plan, I'm planing on brewing a 10 gallon batch of my wit this weekend, so I'll put aside ~4 gallons aside for this experiment.

6 gallons will be treated as I do normally Stir plate starter of WL575, and all experimental jugs will pitched with this yeast.

the 4 gallons will be split in to 5 gallon jugs. SG 1.055 pitching 38 billion cells.

1) No aeration yeast from vial.
2) Aeration yeast from vial.
3) No aeration yeast from vial + 5µl olive oil
4) repeat of 3
5) repeat of 3

I figure with an n of 3 I can calculate a standard deviation.

I will measure the change in in gravity over a week, taking measurements every ~8 hr for the first 3 days then once a day till fermentation is complete.

Sound like a plan?

I can step in on this and let all of you, including the unnecessarily paranoid guys, know that olive oil does work, quite well actually, and does NOT require any lab instruments.

I've been using olive oil to aerate for over a year now and brew frequently (~3 batches per month) and have experienced GREAT results in terms of lower lag times and have never noticed any difference whatsoever in flavor or head.

I would encourage anyone here to begin using olive oil on his/her very next batch. I've found the easiest method to be using a sanitized stainless steel kabob spike, dipping the spike ~1 inch into an olive oil bottle and allowing the spike to drip free of excess oil and then swirling the spike in the chilled wort.

Coupled with a healthy and adequate yeast pitching, I regularly see visible activity on my beers within 3 hours or less using this method. I initially began using olive oil as aeration for batches I ferment in my conical, since I had no desire to waste money on a silly little oxygen stone and tank. I now use this method on all of my batches, regardless of what vessel they are being fermented in. The technique works and works very well. If you have any questions about the dissertation which exposed this technique, please email me. Prost!

I have done several batches with EVOO and had no problems. I would have to look in my notes to see which batches. I will post that when I am back home. I did not experience faster starts or any change in fermentation. No loss in quality of beer.

I have always been a lazy aerator... I pour into buckets through a strainer at most. I am posting to remember to watch the results of a side by side.

I stopped doing OO simply because I saw nothing conclusive in any of the discussions. In fact many folks were posting observing things not described by the science (ie faster and more vigorous fermentations when that was not supposed to happen).

So I am excited to see this side by side study. I am expecting that there is not much discernable difference between the various techniques at the 5 gallon batch size. Now we will see.

I brewed up a 12 gallon batch today of a wit, putting 6 gallons in one fermenter and 5 gallons in to 5 1 gallon jugs.

SG 1.051
WL-400 Pitched at 75ºF at 9pm. I have my fermentation room set at 70ºF.

the 6 gallons got a healthy stater, and was aerated.
1. Aerated with non-starter yeast 7ml
2 not aerated with non-starter yeast 7ml
3 not aerated with non-starter yeast 7ml + 10µl olive oil
4 not aerated with non-starter yeast 7ml + 10µl olive oil
5 not aerated with non-starter yeast 7ml + 10µl olive oil

I'll start monitoring gravity every 8 or so hr.

Bsquared said:

I brewed up a 12 gallon batch today of a wit, putting 6 gallons in one fermenter and 5 gallons in to 5 1 gallon jugs.

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I'm curious to see the outcome, specifically (1) additional fermentation time over the aerated wort (if any) and (2) taste differences (more esters?).

I assume you'll take gravity readings at regular intervals. Looks interesting!

Yeah we need to know lag time and gravity readings in 24 if not 12 hour intervals.

Thanks for taking this up. I certainly don't own enough equipment to undertake this. I look forward to the results.

The only criticism I have of your set up is that I wish you also had 1 gallon of the traditional stuff, instead of 6 gallons. It's probably minor, but 6 gallons of wort doesn't behave exactly as 1 gallon does. Otherwise, I LOVE this idea! Thanks so much for doing this for all of us.

Forbein11 said:

Also, told him I was trying to get my efficiency up (about 68-70%). He said they plan most everything for 70% and big beers for approximately 60%. Made me feel better about my process.

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You have to be careful with these efficiency numbers. In commercial brewing it is not uncommon (if not the norm) to express efficiency as % of the total grain weight and not just % of potential extract. If you potential extract is 77%, which is the case for 80% FGDB and 4% moisture content, his 70% efficiency would be 91% and his 60% would be 78%.

As for the olive oil, I still have a hard time believing that the tiny amount of olive oil that is added to the yeast/wort supplies all the unsaturated fatty acid the yeast needs. But it seems to work for many brewers. While New Belgium has abandoned the project I'm still interested in the outcomes of experiments that home brewers have done with respect to this technique.

Kai

Got up this morning egger to see bubbles,and check some gravity. But its fairly obvious what is going on. To preface this I guess I should explain how I added the Olive oil.

I took out one vial (35ml) when I started brewing (1pm)to come up to room temp (72ºF). At 6pm I added 30µl Olive oil to a 50µl tube and mixed it up fairly well, and let it sit till 9pm when I pitched. Each one gallon growler got 7ml of yeast.

SG all at 1.052 (I have to edit my earlier post, I put 1.055)


Gravity at 10hr
1) 1.048
2-6) 1.052

Do you estimate (or calculate) that the pitch rate for the full 6-gal batch is about the same as it is for the smaller 1-gal batches? Or do you think the full 6-gal batch got a higher pitch rate? Lower pitch rate?

Cool experiment. I'll take the 1-2 perfecta.

SpanishCastleAle said:

Do you estimate (or calculate) that the pitch rate for the full 6-gal batch is about the same as it is for the smaller 1-gal batches? Or do you think the full 6-gal batch got a higher pitch rate? Lower pitch rate?

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Yes, I guess the 6 Gallon batch is just for my reference as a control to how I normally brew. It is pitched with a 1L starter made from 1 vial of WL-400 on a stirrer for 24hr, cold crashed and by decanting off the supernatant, and pitching the slurry. Approximately 220 billion cells, or 36 billion/gallon.

each vial of WL yeast is 70-140 billion/ 35ml so that is 2-4 billion/ml and each gallon got 7ml, so they got 14-28billion/gallon. Fairly close but not the same.

I cool with a WP chilling system, so there is some aeration going on in all the wort, but I transfer to the carboy using a vacuum pump, so it gets extra aerated.

Okay now we're firing on all 6!

1) 6 gallon is down to 1.044
2) Aeration w/o Olive oil 1.046
3) No Aeration w/o Olive oil 1.046
4-6) No aeration With olive oil 1.048

I think in the next 24 hr they should be getting into their stride. I moved the temp up to 74ºF, so they should be rock'n out.

Awesome experiment! Subscribing to see the outcome!

I've never monitored gravity readings in this time frame, so I'm not to sure how this is to look like. Ten points in 36hr seems a little slow, but I'll assume this is the growth phase, and soon they will start to consume faster.

Temp 74ºF

1) 1.041
2) 1.043
3) 1.043
4) 1.043
5) 1.043
6) 1.044

Are you going to have some sort of blind tasting to see if the beers turned out significantly different? Haven't there been claims of more fruity esters using the EVOO technique?

Many Belgian breweries under-aerate and pitch at a higher than normal rate to promote ester production. I have been considering using O-O rather than O2 in my Belgians for this reason. I'll be curious to see what differences develop in flavor between the batches.

Saccharomyces said:

Many Belgian breweries under-aerate and pitch at a higher than normal rate to promote ester production.

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I did not know that, thanks.

I planed on bottling one of the Olive oil growlers, and kegging the 6 gallon batch, but now that you mentioned this, I might bottle the under aerated batch as well, even though it as pitched at a normal rate.

I mainly wanted to see it if there was a growth advantage between the methods, but if I can get some flavor data out too, that will be cool as well.

The rest I was planing on doing some fruit experiments. The prickly pear cactus in the canyons around my house are getting ripe, so I want to try that in a secondary, also a separate batch with some apricots I acquired from my neighbor.

This thread is rated "YUM-O" by the Rachael Ray Admirers of America!

Homercidal said:

This thread is rated "YUM-O" by the Rachael Ray Admirers of America!

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EEEEE-VEEEE-OH-OH!

Saccharomyces said:

EEEEE-VEEEE-OH-OH!

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I've purpously tried to spell out olive oil as much a posable and avoided EVOO...30 min meals my ass...

I found this journal article, but have to admit i just skimmed it to find this growth rate graph. The filled in circles are a pitching rate of 10x10^6/ml (ten million cells), which is close to my 6 gallon pitching rate. 2.2x10^11 cells/(6x4000ml)=9X10^6.

It looks like, at this pitching rate they observer a drop of 2ºplato in 48hr, and thats close to what I'm seeing.

Being EVOO...I would've thought it was approved by the Giada Admirers Guild.

All batches have reached 1.038


I think I might start monitoring every 24hr form now on.

SpanishCastleAle said:

Being EVOO...I would've thought it was approved by the Giada Admirers Guild.

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Giada, Rachael, either way! (or BOTH ways!) :cross:

I'm f'n loaded right now but... Yes I know It's Wednesday!!!
1-3 1.036
4-5-6 1.034

I don't know but the EVOO looks like it might be starting to take off...