More Brew in a Bag (BIAB) Success

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Cistercian

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I just had another success with Brew in a Bag (BIAB). This past time I got close to 80%!

Just think, you can do all "all grain" and save a whole hour of time and a lot of clean up. Estimate 3.5 hours from set up to clean up. That's great time for an AG batch.

Here's how I do it.

I have a 15 gallon converted keggle with a false bottom (the false bottom keeps the bag off the bottom - you don't want to burn or melt the bag since you're using a burner.).

I bring the water to 121 F. Then I put the bag in the keggle. I pour the crushed grains into the bag. Bring the water up to 151 F (or whatever your mash temp is) and hold it by using the burning from time to time.

There are three keys to high efficiency with BIAB:

1.Mash for 70 minutes and then mash out at 170 F for 20 minutes. That's 90 minutes total.

2. I take off the lid and stir inside the bag every twenty minutes. To do this right, you need someone to hold the bag. Otherwise, you could spill the grain into the wort and that pretty much defeats the purpose. I really stir it up. You lose heat this way so watch your temp gauge and keep the temp constant. Repeat this over and over.

3. When you lift the bag out, be careful. I had one bag begin to rip with a heavy grain bill. For this reason, DON'T SUSPEND THE BAG. Instead, I have a colander that fits perfectly over the mouth of my kettle. I put the colander over the mouth of the kettle and rest the grain sack on top of it so that it can drain while sitting on top of the colander.

While it's draining, go ahead and turn up the burner and start bringing to a boil. This saves time.

Finally, I press on the grain sack against the colander. Some might vote against this, but it pushes out just a bit more wort. Then I throw the grain sack to the side. It's finished.

Don't let people fool you into thinking that this won't work for big grain bills or high OGs. My only worry on the big grain bill is ripping the sack. Just be careful and don't suspend the sack.

If you do suspend the sack, the weight naturally presses and squeezes the grain so don't worry about squeezing it with your hands. If you use the colander, there is no natural squeeze so give it a squeeze yourself.
 
I basically followed EdWort's Haus Pale Ale recipe, except I used BIAB.

Dough-in with 3.5 gallons of water. After 60 minutes, add 5 quarts of 175 degree water and begin vorlauf. My system only takes about 2 quarts before it clears up, then it's wide open to drain in the kettle. Have another 3.25 gallons of 175 degree water ready for the next batch sparge. You should then get 6.5 gallons to your kettle for the boil.

I did get 6.5 gallons to the boil and I got 80% efficiency! I pulled the bag and let it drain a bit before squeezing it pretty thoroughly. My mash temp slid a bit, so I added some boiling water to bring it back up with a half-gallon. Dumped the wort into my bucket, put the grain bag back into my Igloo Cooler, and sparged with another 3.25 gal @ 175. The sparge wort then went into the bucket and the whole batch was boiled in 2 containers since I have smaller kettles. I hit all the target gravities but I have yet to start checking for my FG.

Is there any reason why the original BIAB instructions omit the sparge, or is it unnecessary? Would I have gotten 80% without the sparge?

Cascadie
 
I don't get how this saves any time if you are batch sparging it must be the same amount of time.
 
I don't get how this saves any time if you are batch sparging it must be the same amount of time.

Yeah, I would think the main benefit would be not having to buy a cooler and hose braid or manifold. In my case, I got an IceCube cooler for free from a friend and spent $8 on fittings. But I'm all for brewing with whatever you have around.

Perhaps the OP can elaborate on how his/her method saves time?
 
I don't get how this saves any time if you are batch sparging it must be the same amount of time.
I've never used a mash-tun so I don't know if BIAB is quicker than other methods. For me, BIAB was a way into AG brewing that only cost $6 for a voile curtain (as well as 20 minutes of unmanly sewing activity :p ).
 
I don't get how this saves any time if you are batch sparging it must be the same amount of time.

I batch sparge and BiaB. I'd say that BiaB saves me at least an hour and a half for several reasons.

- Quick set up. I don't need to get out my HLT, Mash Tun, or mash tun stand.

- No sparge. I don't do an extended mash or a long mash out like Cistercian. Sometimes I'll raise the mash to 170, but I pull the grain bag right away usually. I get 75% efficiency.

- Possibly quicker to boil, because the pre-boil temp is most likely a little higher. Also, I start the burner as soon as I pull the bag out. With my "real" system, I have to keep my kettle on the ground until the sparge is finished, and then I can lift it onto my burner to start the boil.

- Quick cleanup. I don't need to clean and put away my HLT, Mash Tun, or mash tun stand.

It is also a much more portable system. I can fit everything in the trunk of my car, as opposed to filling up my van.
 
Is there any reason why the original BIAB instructions omit the sparge, or is it unnecessary? Would I have gotten 80% without the sparge?

I think that the beauty of BiaB is in it's simplicity of both process and equipment. Sparging requires another vessel, and more time.

I don't sparge and I regularly get 75% efficiency.
 
well if your heating up water to 170 thats a batch sparge right there.

Before I had my electirc system I used to add roughly 3 gallons to my m,ash tun dough in leave it for 60 mins. drain, sparge with another 4 gallons or so of water boil and i was done.

I don't see how this method is any faster other then you can adjust your temps with your heater etc.

Your still having to rinse the bag with 170 degress water to get all the sugars out. or squeeze 10 lbs of grain in a bag to extract whats in the bag. Then you have to wash the bag after which must be a PITA with all of those grain husks sticking in there.
 
well if your heating up water to 170 thats a batch sparge right there.
No, that's a direct fired mash out, which isn't even necessary. Sparging is rinsing the grains, which we don't do.


I don't see how this method is any faster other then you can adjust your temps with your heater etc.
Did you read my post above?

Your still having to rinse the bag with 170 degress water to get all the sugars out. or squeeze 10 lbs of grain in a bag to extract whats in the bag. Then you have to wash the bag after which must be a PITA with all of those grain husks sticking in there.
No, that's why this is a No Sparge method.

Cleaning the bag is easy if you remember to keep the seams on the outside. It's basically just a dump then a rinse. I can probably clean the bag in half the time it takes to clean my mash tun.

I've been doing a series of lagers with the BiaB, so I've been doing 90 min boils and chilling to below 50, but if I were doing an ale and stayed on task, I bet that i could get it in the fermenter in about 3 hours.
 
1.Mash for 70 minutes and then mash out at 170 F for 20 minutes. That's 90 minutes total.

I'm curious, what temp water do you add to achieve 170 degree Mash out? Given the simplicity of this and your efficiency numbers, I would like to try this before I build a MLT.
 
Hi Cistercian,

How do you handle the grain dust making your wort cloudy?

I use a similar technique with my partial-mash batches on the stovetop. I have mashed in the bag with a small cooler and using a kettle with heat on the stove. The main problem for me is the cloudy wort from the suspended grain particles left by not running through a grain bed for filtering.

My solution so far has been to heat the wort to 180 to stop the conversion (and help kill any unwanted germs), then cover and let it sit for while to settle the dust to the bottom. After that I siphon the clear(er) wort off of the settled gunk and then start my boil.

Sure would be nice to not have to wait for the settling and use another vessel in which to siphon the wort!
 
Hi Cistercian,
How do you handle the grain dust making your wort cloudy?

I know your question wasn't directed at me, but I can answer it with the usual RDWHAHB.

The light lagers that I've brewed recently have come out crystal clear, with no noticeable off flavors, regardless of how cloudy the sweet wort was.
 
So no sparging? How do you get that much efficiency without sparging?

Maybe some combination of the thin mash and fine grind??

Seriously -- I am very curious about this too. Even with a really fine grind and a thin mash, you would need to do a really long mash to get good conversion and extraction. Clearly you aren't lengthening your mash time to compensate.

All the conventional brewing wisdom I have read says that the maximum theoretical extraction rates you will get from no-sparge brewing is in the 65% range. How can you get above this theoretical maximum without a sparge? (Note that's extract efficiency, and not even brewhouse efficiency.)
 
All the conventional brewing wisdom I have read says that the maximum theoretical extraction rates you will get from no-sparge brewing is in the 65% range. How can you get above this theoretical maximum without a sparge? (Note that's extract efficiency, and not even brewhouse efficiency.)

I believe people do it all of the time. I started off doing all-grain in a bag and I routinely hit 75% brewhouse efficiency (I never measured extract efficiency) with a 0.038" crush gap. Later, I moved to a 0.036" crush gap and I began hitting 78% efficiency routinely.
 
I think that I get a high efficiency because I stir the grains a lot and because there is so much water. It's almost like a continual rinse. Also at the end, the grains run dry. I've even double-dipped the giant (10 lbs and more) tea bag which acts somewhat like a sparge.

I guess you could run 170 F water through the grain bag after you pull it out, but why waste the time and effort if you're already getting 73-80% efficiency, as is?

I usually dough in with 7 gallons of water. The extra two gallons account from some grain absorption and boil off. I end up with 5 gallons (plus or minus a quart) in the fermenter when it's all said and done.

I've mentioned BIAB to others and they say: "Won't work well because there's no sparge," but the numbers beg to differ.

My grains are crushed at the standard measure at the LHBS. I don't crush them any finer, though I've thought about running them through twice next time to just see how it effects the efficiency.

As for cloudy beer and grain dust, I haven't noticed it too much. "Dust" is relatively big and heavy, and I imagine it falls out. I haven't tried lagers, but Lustreking in his post above seems to testify that it hasn't affected his color or clarity.
 
I do a three step mash and then sparge. To make things "easier" I purchased a sparging bag. The initial draining of the wort went well, but then I went to sparge the remainder with hotter water. Allowed the bulk of the sparging liquid to drain by lifting the bag slightly over the brew kettle. Then I tried to lift the bag out of the kettle to allow the remainder to drain. Wrong move...the bottom came out of the bag. Hot grain everywhere! The bottom of the bag had melted .... and I do not sparge at a temperature above 168. You CANNOT use these bags in a brew kettle over a gas burner even if the gas is not set on a very high heat. My last use of a sparging bag.
 
I do a three step mash and then sparge. To make things "easier" I purchased a sparging bag...the bottom came out of the bag. Hot grain everywhere! The bottom of the bag had melted .... and I do not sparge at a temperature above 168. You CANNOT use these bags in a brew kettle over a gas burner even if the gas is not set on a very high heat.

Was the bag made of nylon or something else? I ask because nylon can withstand boiling temperatures quite well.

Also, how many pounds of wet grain where you lifting? I imagine the weight was a greater factor than the heat.
 
The bag was designed to hold eight gallons. Yes, it was nylon, but the bottom had a special insert with a heavier mesh to aid in draining. The entire heavier mesh insert burned out...as in black...but the much finer mesh was unaffected. The bag cost about 9.00. Never will use such a bag again during the step mashing and sparging and do hope the burned out bottom does not ruin a complex brew that was a lot of work.
 
I do a three step mash and then sparge. To make things "easier" I purchased a sparging bag. The initial draining of the wort went well, but then I went to sparge the remainder with hotter water. Allowed the bulk of the sparging liquid to drain by lifting the bag slightly over the brew kettle. Then I tried to lift the bag out of the kettle to allow the remainder to drain. Wrong move...the bottom came out of the bag. Hot grain everywhere! The bottom of the bag had melted .... and I do not sparge at a temperature above 168. You CANNOT use these bags in a brew kettle over a gas burner even if the gas is not set on a very high heat. My last use of a sparging bag.

My BiaB bags have been made out of a sheer curtain from Walmart. I think it's polyester. I've never had any trouble with the bag melting, and I direct heat the kettle with my propane burner. I do, however, make sure that I'm constantly stirring when I heat the mash.
 
Interesting. I wonder.......

I've got a bunch of unused heavy game bags in my camper.......for elk and large deer. These are made out of a sort of really heavy cheese cloth. I might have to give this a try and see if those will work. They are certainly strong enough to hold 10lbs of grain easy.
 
Also, a veggie strainer on the bottom of the pot with near constant stirring while heating will reduce chance of melting grain bag.

I just use a 5lb paint strainer. Use it for a few brews and then throw it away.
 
For you other BIABers out there, do you find any temperature difference between different parts of the kettle during mashing? I find there's a difference of several degrees between the water and the grain, as the grain tends to settle at the bottom - and there's just too much of it to keep it all stirred up for 60 minutes. When the water's at 148 or so, the grain itself can be 153 or more, and I'm not sure which one best indicates what's actually happening in the mash. I ask as I've found my last couple of beers to be a little thin. I'd assumed that the grain temp would be the temp to keep an eye on, but I wonder whether the water temp is the more important. Has anyone else found this?
 
I hit 75% my second time doing it. (I do not want to talk about the first. It was very low, but i was very stupid.)
 
For you other BIABers out there, do you find any temperature difference between different parts of the kettle during mashing? I find there's a difference of several degrees between the water and the grain, as the grain tends to settle at the bottom - and there's just too much of it to keep it all stirred up for 60 minutes. When the water's at 148 or so, the grain itself can be 153 or more, and I'm not sure which one best indicates what's actually happening in the mash. I ask as I've found my last couple of beers to be a little thin. I'd assumed that the grain temp would be the temp to keep an eye on, but I wonder whether the water temp is the more important. Has anyone else found this?


I stir for a good 10 minutes when first putting the grain in. I lift from the bottom to the top constantly. I have never checked to see if there is a difference between water and grain temp. though. But I have noticed that if you do not stir regularly while ramping to mash out the bottom grains can get quite hot until you completely stir them with the other grains. So yes there are some definite hot spots while heating. During mash I leave my probe thermometer in the grain and I don't loose too much during that process. Since I have been brewing inside for the winter months I throw the pot of grains and water into a warm stove and don't even lose a degree! Now my back after humping those grains from stove top to stove and back...ouch!
 
For you other BIABers out there, do you find any temperature difference between different parts of the kettle during mashing? I find there's a difference of several degrees between the water and the grain, as the grain tends to settle at the bottom - and there's just too much of it to keep it all stirred up for 60 minutes.

Hmmm.. I never really noticed it, in fact, I've never measured below the top 3 inches or so. When I'm taking the temperature, which I do several times throughout the mash, I'm thoroughly stirring it though.

My mash is a little thicker than the "traditional" BiaB mash, though it's still much thinner than I would use when batch sparging in my cooler.

I'm in the process of building a small HERMS chamber. It would be interesting to use it with my BiaB "system."
 
For you other BIABers out there, do you find any temperature difference between different parts of the kettle during mashing?

I did....until I purchased a pump to recirculate the mash water for better heat distribution. But, I do a three step mash (135F, 152F & 165F) with most of my beers making even heat distribution critical.
 
Seriously -- I am very curious about this too. Even with a really fine grind and a thin mash, you would need to do a really long mash to get good conversion and extraction. Clearly you aren't lengthening your mash time to compensate.

All the conventional brewing wisdom I have read says that the maximum theoretical extraction rates you will get from no-sparge brewing is in the 65% range. How can you get above this theoretical maximum without a sparge? (Note that's extract efficiency, and not even brewhouse efficiency.)

Conventional wisdom is what you and others have learned from experience. If you hold on to conventional wisdom too tightly you'll miss out on the new things that are being figured out.
 
For you other BIABers out there, do you find any temperature difference between different parts of the kettle during mashing? I find there's a difference of several degrees between the water and the grain, as the grain tends to settle at the bottom - and there's just too much of it to keep it all stirred up for 60 minutes. When the water's at 148 or so, the grain itself can be 153 or more, and I'm not sure which one best indicates what's actually happening in the mash. I ask as I've found my last couple of beers to be a little thin. I'd assumed that the grain temp would be the temp to keep an eye on, but I wonder whether the water temp is the more important. Has anyone else found this?

I have found big difference in temp in different spots. Stir it til your arm is tired.
 
Conventional wisdom is what you and others have learned from experience. If you hold on to conventional wisdom too tightly you'll miss out on the new things that are being figured out.
I wasn't saying it couldn't be done. I am just curious why it works as well as some claim.

By all means, please explain (if you know).
 
Originally Posted by FlyGuy
All the conventional brewing wisdom I have read says that the maximum theoretical extraction rates you will get from no-sparge brewing is in the 65% range. How can you get above this theoretical maximum without a sparge? (Note that's extract efficiency, and not even brewhouse efficiency.)

FlyGuy the reading I've done on it would suggest the fact there is more water availible to the enzymes than there is in a mash that has the sugars more conecntrated. Essential the enzymes and sugar are competing for the water and there is more water availible in a BIAB.

Since the pH is constant through the mash the crush can be quite fine also. This also allows for quicker/easier conversion as opposed to a more coarse crush. However I have found that I don't need to grind my grist to powder, I can actually use the grind as I would for a traditional mash. I think the fact there is more water than in a traditional mash would expaln it. When I first started BIAB my grist had quite a lot of flour. Anymore I don't bother.

If you haven't given it a try you should. Its fairly easy and straight forward. There are far too many people having success with it for it to be a fluke. I'd give it a fair chance and try a few batches, but honestly there isn't a whole lot to go wrong. I have seen a few posts here or there about poor extraction, but those are few and far between.

The conventional wisdom I think many try to apply to this techique might be inaccurate. I've did about 15 batches in 2009 with this method. The worst efficiency I had was from a batch I used a 750ml bottle to crush my grain. I think Fix and Palmer mention 65% with no sprage brewing, but IIRC neither of them did a full volume mash did they?
 
FlyGuy the reading I've done on it would suggest the fact there is more water availible to the enzymes than there is in a mash that has the sugars more conecntrated. Essential the enzymes and sugar are competing for the water and there is more water availible in a BIAB.?

This is the first time I've heard of BIAB... Where do you get the bags? Can you do all of this in your regular 15gal brew pot? It makes sense to use all the water that you would need for a traditional mash/sparge all in one (to have more water for the enzymes and all) and mash at 150 for 60 mins and then 170 for 15-20 mins. Then all you would have to do is lift the bag, drain, and then start the boil? Is this right?
 
I did my first AG (BIAB) on Sat. everything went great, I hit my target OG. I used Qbrew to calc my recipe; it was set to 75% efficiency & I am pretty sure of all volumes. Is this indicative of my Brewhouse efficiency?
 
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