American Pale Ale Red Chair NWPA clone

Yakima 728
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When do you add the 0min hops? At FO or do you do a cooled down hop stand? I wouldn't see you getting even close to the 60IBU range, what a red chair is supposed to have, if you added this amount of Cascade right at flameout. If you keep in mind the isomerisation of the alpha acids that would still be going on at those temperatures, you would probably end up at around 100IBU or something.
I thought about maybe a cooled down hop stand, at around 160–170°F for 60 to 80 minutes with the Cascade. Or maybe even half the amount in the hop stand and half of it as dry hopping. The 3oz Centennial should almost bring it up to the 60IBU on their own.
What do you guys think?

EDIT: Oh and also, what kind of a dry yeast would you suggest?
 
I've made this brew 4 times now, and actually just racked to kegs last night.
I add the 0min hops at FO and just let them sit while my immersion chiller is doing its thing. So they're probably in there for 30 min at least. Then I remove my hop bag before racking to carboys.
I enjoy the extra "hoppiness" and it's not all that strong using this method. Maybe a little more IBUs than what it's "supposed to" have, but that's what HB is all about, tailor the system and product to your liking.
 
I'm brewing Round 3 of this tonight. The only change is 40L instead of 60L. Something wasn't quite there on the sweetness last time, so I'm going to see what impact this has. Results to come...
 
Just brewed this up yesterday and ended up short on my final batch size. I'm about 3/4 of a gallon short because this didn't fit into my boiling kettle anymore. I just figured I would add water after the boil since the gravity should be higher. But it came out at 1.063. So pretty much where it should be. Only problem is, I didn't recalculate the hops and I'm now probably looking more towards 75 or 80 IBU or so, instead of the intended 60. I thought about bringing it at least down to 1.060 with water and then just see how it'll turn out. What do u say?
 
SvenF said:
Just brewed this up yesterday and ended up short on my final batch size. I'm about 3/4 of a gallon short because this didn't fit into my boiling kettle anymore. I just figured I would add water after the boil since the gravity should be higher. But it came out at 1.063. So pretty much where it should be. Only problem is, I didn't recalculate the hops and I'm now probably looking more towards 75 or 80 IBU or so, instead of the intended 60. I thought about bringing it at least down to 1.060 with water and then just see how it'll turn out. What do u say?
Click to expand...

If it were me, I wouldn't mess with it. I'd just see how it comes out and give it another shot if you're not happy with it. I think adding even more variables just complicates things and this way you'll know why you're where you are. Unless I can actually calculate my error and correction, I don't like to change things after the boil too much.
 
I did add some water, but it really wasn't much. About 10 ounces. I didn't want to fall below the 1.060. It's fermenting nice now and will be what it is. I'll let you guys know. Thanks for the answer though!
 
Brewing this up today. It's my second try. First batch lost all hop flavor and aroma, but was still a delicious amber. Hoping the hops come through this time.
 
I've read Deschutes' website several times about Red Chair NWPA while looking over the recipes online and I just came across what might be a small "missing link." The few batches I've made seemed to be close, but lack some complexity in the sweetness. As I was re-reading, I came across this:

"Seven select European and domestic malts round out the edges for a complex, copper-colored brew."

However, all the recipes online, including this one, use 6 malts. Deschutes themselves state that Red Chair uses "Pale, Crystal, Munich, Carapils, Pilsner, Carastan," which is only six. So, I'm guessing the missing seventh is another crystal malt. My first guess is C40 in addition to C60. Another possibility is Light Carastan 13-17L. So, I'm going to do another batch this week using a blend of C60 & C40. I haven't decided the amounts yet. I'll get some Light Carastan 13-17L on Monday and work up a batch with that as well.

Any other input on that idea?
 
crjpilot said:
I've read Deschutes' website several times about Red Chair NWPA while looking over the recipes online and I just came across what might be a small "missing link." The few batches I've made seemed to be close, but lack some complexity in the sweetness. As I was re-reading, I came across this:

"Seven select European and domestic malts round out the edges for a complex, copper-colored brew."

However, all the recipes online, including this one, use 6 malts. Deschutes themselves state that Red Chair uses "Pale, Crystal, Munich, Carapils, Pilsner, Carastan," which is only six. So, I'm guessing the missing seventh is another crystal malt. My first guess is C40 in addition to C60. Another possibility is Light Carastan 13-17L. So, I'm going to do another batch this week using a blend of C60 & C40. I haven't decided the amounts yet. I'll get some Light Carastan 13-17L on Monday and work up a batch with that as well.

Any other input on that idea?
Click to expand...

I like it!

I'd consider 0.5lb of 90L and 0.5lb of 40L. That should get you about the same color as the 1lb of 60L, but with a little more sweetness/body.
 
AZ_IPA said:
I like it!

I'd consider 0.5lb of 90L and 0.5lb of 40L. That should get you about the same color as the 1lb of 60L, but with a little more sweetness/body.
Click to expand...

I haven't used 90L before, but I picked some up yesterday. I might throw a couple of mixed percentages into some hot water and give it a taste to get an idea of what would be right.
 
Also, considering we know they use Carastan and British yeast, is it possible they're using British Crystal rather than US crystal? I have British light and medium crystal on hand, so I might see if those would be appropriate here as well.
 
OK, I'm brewing this again now. I've made a couple more changes based on my own tasting as well as notes here. First, I note that many people guess that Deschutes uses Great Western Pale Ale Malt instead of regular 2-row, which gives it some additional depth and richness. I agree that it could contribute, but I don't have it available here at my LHBS, so I got some Gambrinus ESB Pale Malt instead. It's also a little darker and richer than regular 2-row, but not as nutty/toasty as Maris Otter. I'm going with the 50/50 split of C40 and C90 as well. Finally, I'm splitting the late Centennial addition into a 15 minute and 5 minute because I feel like there's a substantial Centennial flavor and the OP stated his didn't have quite as much hop flavor as the original.

I'll keep everyone posted!
 
crjpilot said:
OK, I'm brewing this again now. I've made a couple more changes based on my own tasting as well as notes here. First, I note that many people guess that Deschutes uses Great Western Pale Ale Malt instead of regular 2-row, which gives it some additional depth and richness. I agree that it could contribute, but I don't have it available here at my LHBS, so I got some Gambrinus ESB Pale Malt instead. It's also a little darker and richer than regular 2-row, but not as nutty/toasty as Maris Otter. I'm going with the 50/50 split of C40 and C90 as well. Finally, I'm splitting the late Centennial addition into a 15 minute and 5 minute because I feel like there's a substantial Centennial flavor and the OP stated his didn't have quite as much hop flavor as the original.

I'll keep everyone posted!
Click to expand...

Yep, keep us posted. I've got my 4th attempt in the bucket now but eagerly awaiting my next attempt at splitting up the crystal. I feel like my 3 attempts have been close but not quite sweet enough and not enough citrus taste / aroma.
 
crjpilot, did you get a FG sample tasting yet?
no rush over here, just wanted to see if you've nailed it.. guess i'll have to wait until it carbs, huh.. ;)

do tell!
 
te-wa said:
crjpilot, did you get a FG sample tasting yet?
no rush over here, just wanted to see if you've nailed it.. guess i'll have to wait until it carbs, huh.. ;)

do tell!
Click to expand...

Good timing. Actually, it is kegged and carbed now, so I did just do a taste test. Fortunately, with this year's batch of Red Chair just hitting the shelves, I was able to compare it to a fresh one. I have my girlfriend test along with me because I think her palate is slightly different, so it's good to get some comparison. Here are my latest notes:

Appearance - I had a little chill haze, so it appears slightly darker, but it's pretty close still. Close enough that I wouldn't tweak anything.

Aroma - Again, very close. I sense just slightly more Cascade in the actual Red Chair, but it's very slight. My girlfriend swears they're identical. The amount of aroma seems equal.

Taste - This is always the tough one. Overall taste is quite similar. I would say mine has a slightly higher perceived bitterness, but I think this might be accounted for more in water profile than actual recipe design. The bitterness seems to linger more in the finish more so than actually be more bitter. Hop flavor seems to be the same. Sweetness seems to be the same. I think the combination of Crystal malts helped round out the malt profile.

Mouthfeel - Here's where I noticed the most difference. The fresh Red Chair just seemed softer, smoother, and more well-blended where I still felt mine was a little bit heavier and kind of muddled. I felt like mine just sort of landed on my tongue with more of an impact where the Red Chair seemed to wash over with a better layering of flavors and feeling.

So, my first inclination is to up the Pilsner Malt a fair amount and drop the 2-Row down to try to get a softer mouthfeel. Second, I might tweak the water a bit to bring down the perceived bitterness. Third, I might still consider some tweaks to the C40/C90/Carastan combination to up the C40 more and drop the C90 just a bit. This might make the flavor profile a little "cleaner" in that there's slightly more sweetness and not so much of the darker flavors.

All in all, it's really close and very drinkable, but I'm still going to keep working at it!
 
Tried my latest attempt (using US-04) against the commercial stuff.

img_20131228_191609_112-61690.jpg


Though I haven't tried yet, I think I'd be hard pressed to separare the two in a triangle test and lick the Red Chair.

In my opinion, the slight differences have to be water related. I keep tinkering with water profile, and I'm not getting the mouthfeel difference that crj is getting. Of course there is so much variation with homebrew scale relating to ingredients, water, fermentation, and equipment, so I'm not sure what else I'll try. I'm officially happy with it! :mug:
 
Oh, and check serving temp. Out of my kegerator it is nearly 10*f then from a bottle out of the fridge. That temp difference makes a huge difference in aroma and mouthfeel.

Thanks for the continued feedback crj.
 
AZ_IPA said:
Oh, and check serving temp. Out of my kegerator it is nearly 10*f then from a bottle out of the fridge. That temp difference makes a huge difference in aroma and mouthfeel.

Thanks for the continued feedback crj.
Click to expand...

I agree that temp makes a big difference. I adjusted my kegerator temp after the first taste test and it now pours with a more pronounced and "accurate" aroma. The flavor has improved as well, so I'd say it's VERY close.
 
Came across this a couple months ago and brewed a partial mash/extract version. I haven't had the Red Chair but this one came out really nice. Very pleased with the malt profile and the hops combo. I was a little quick with it trying to get ready for Thanksgiving so fermented for 12 days and kegged. Took about 2 weeks for it to clear (still tasted fine) but the keg didn't last very long after that. Getting ready to put this together again. Thanks for the recipe.
 
AZ_IPA said:
Tried my latest attempt (using US-04) against the commercial stuff.

img_20131228_191609_112-61690.jpg


Though I haven't tried yet, I think I'd be hard pressed to separare the two in a triangle test and lick the Red Chair.

In my opinion, the slight differences have to be water related. I keep tinkering with water profile, and I'm not getting the mouthfeel difference that crj is getting. Of course there is so much variation with homebrew scale relating to ingredients, water, fermentation, and equipment, so I'm not sure what else I'll try. I'm officially happy with it! :mug:
Click to expand...

So do you have any thoughts re GW Pale Malt vs. GW 2-Row? I made a Mirror Pond last month with the Pale (3 SRM) and it was pretty nice. Or is the higher mash doing it for you with the regular 2-row?
 
I really enjoy Red Chair. I have some in the fridge now. Once I get all my home brew gear unpacked, I will have to try this one.
Even my wife enjoys Red Chair. Deschutes is my fav and I live in Bend so they are just down the street from me.
 
crjpilot said:
Good timing. Actually, it is kegged and carbed now, so I did just do a taste test. Fortunately, with this year's batch of Red Chair just hitting the shelves, I was able to compare it to a fresh one. I have my girlfriend test along with me because I think her palate is slightly different, so it's good to get some comparison. Here are my latest notes:

Appearance - I had a little chill haze, so it appears slightly darker, but it's pretty close still. Close enough that I wouldn't tweak anything.

Aroma - Again, very close. I sense just slightly more Cascade in the actual Red Chair, but it's very slight. My girlfriend swears they're identical. The amount of aroma seems equal.

Taste - This is always the tough one. Overall taste is quite similar. I would say mine has a slightly higher perceived bitterness, but I think this might be accounted for more in water profile than actual recipe design. The bitterness seems to linger more in the finish more so than actually be more bitter. Hop flavor seems to be the same. Sweetness seems to be the same. I think the combination of Crystal malts helped round out the malt profile.

Mouthfeel - Here's where I noticed the most difference. The fresh Red Chair just seemed softer, smoother, and more well-blended where I still felt mine was a little bit heavier and kind of muddled. I felt like mine just sort of landed on my tongue with more of an impact where the Red Chair seemed to wash over with a better layering of flavors and feeling.

So, my first inclination is to up the Pilsner Malt a fair amount and drop the 2-Row down to try to get a softer mouthfeel. Second, I might tweak the water a bit to bring down the perceived bitterness. Third, I might still consider some tweaks to the C40/C90/Carastan combination to up the C40 more and drop the C90 just a bit. This might make the flavor profile a little "cleaner" in that there's slightly more sweetness and not so much of the darker flavors.

All in all, it's really close and very drinkable, but I'm still going to keep working at it!
Click to expand...

What are you using for water CRJpilot?
 
I'm brewing this up on Saturday based on the OP and scaled up to 10.5 gallons:

18.00 lb Great Western Pale Malt (3.0 SRM)
2.00 lb Pilsner (2 Row) UK (1.0 SRM)
2.00 lb Munich Malt - 10L (10.0 SRM)
2.00 lb Caramel/Crystal Malt - 60L (60.0 SRM)
1.00 lb Cara-Pils/Dextrine (2.0 SRM)
1.00 lb Carastan (30.0 SRM)

This gets me to 1.066 at 75% efficiency. Mashing at 154F and 1.5qts/lb for 70 minutes or so.

0.75oz Apollo @ 20.1% - FWH 90 minutes (33.6 IBUs)
0.75oz Summit @ 17.7% - Boil 60 minutes (26.9 IBUs)
3.0oz Centennial @10.5% - Boil 15 minutes (17.0 IBUs)
4.0oz Cascade @ 7.3% - Aroma steep 40 minutes (0.0 IBUs)

Total 77.5 IBUs (Rager). I mixed up the bittering hops because I've got the Apollo and Summit in the freezer and I don't usually have issues subbing out for a smaller amount of high AA hops. Leaf hops are expensive and, you know, Obamacare.

2pkg S-04, ferment at 65F for 2 weeks and then transfer to kegs and cold crash, carb, and enjoy. Or I might try to do a pressurized fermentation if I can get my gear together in time. :)
 
AZ, Pilot: can you post your latest findings, i'd like to brew this soon. going over the full 7 pages it seems like the original recipe is what i should shoot for?
and i want to make a 2L starter... with 005 or 1098?
 
te-wa said:
AZ, Pilot: can you post your latest findings, i'd like to brew this soon. going over the full 7 pages it seems like the original recipe is what i should shoot for?
and i want to make a 2L starter... with 005 or 1098?
Click to expand...

I would go with the changes I made on post #52 on the page prior to this one. I think the split of C40/C90 turned out pretty good and I think a little more Pilsner would be good as well. I've used 1968 with every batch and been pleased with it, especially in terms of flocculation. That was the batch I felt was closest.

Sent from my HTC One using Home Brew mobile app
 
I brewed this up a couple months ago and bottled it. I had to do an extract version. It's winter and my garage isn't heated. I live in Canada. The one upside, is, no wort chiller required in winter, as you can throw the brew pot into a snow bank.

After reading the thread there seemed to be some debate as to dry hop or not dry hop. I split my batch and dry hopped half.Red Chair is pretty tough to get around here, but coincidentally, I went on vacation about the time the bottles were ready and was able to sample some Red Chair again to compare.

I would say I prefer the dry hopped batch and it seemed to have more of a hop punch like Red Chair. But the copper colour was beautiful, and the aroma and taste were excellent. Great, long lasting lace. This will definitely be my go to recipe from here on in.

Thanks to the OP!
 
9 nw pale (great western)
1 Munich 60
1.4 Pilsner
.5 C40
.5 C90
1.3 rye
Mash @ 153
1.5 centy @ FW
.75 centy @ 20 min
.75 centy @ 10 min
2 cascade @ 0 min
s-04 at 65 for 21 days

*edit: somehow, i overlooked the carapils and carastan and didnt use any when brewing this beer. oh well. i will end up with a rye pale that should be drinkable although nowhere near the intended goal. thanks, Obama!
 
Just tasted my first sample of this out of the keg. It's FANTASTIC! I'm going to do a blind side-by-side tomorrow with the real thing.

I did it exactly as I said a couple of posts above, except I used 11lbs of 2-row and 7lbs of GW Pale malt, as I still had some 2-row to use up and I figured it would be a good starting point. I'll do the next one all Pale to see how it changes the body. I used German pilsner because I didn't know which to get. I included some brewing salts as well to get some oomph into this Bend water. I also ended up with better efficiency than I had calculated, so I had to dilute from 1.073 down to 1.067 with about 0.8gal water, which brought my pre-boil volume up to about 13.6 gallons.

I fermented about 24 days in a sanke keg with a Johnson controller and the probe taped to the side, wrapped in a towel and a blanket. Started at 64F, brought it up to 66F after about a week and a half. I built a spunding valve in the meantime, hooked that up, but by then the bulk of the gas was already gone. Still, if the gauge is correct (I'm not sure it is) I got up to about 12psi at 66F, so I retained a bit of carbonation.

Cold crashed it for 4 days at 40F, split it into two kegs last night, put 30psi on each and put them in the fridge. Tonight they're down to about 14psi, I hooked up a cobra tap and tested one, and it's really nice! mostly foam, but I'm attributing that to the short line and the higher carbonation that hasn't settled in yet. It was a fast pour. Looking forward to how this one plays out - I think it's a winner!
 
brewed this finally, but with 1.3 lbs rye malt and reduced the 2 row (great western) to 9lbs on a 155 mash.
hit .061 at 80 degrees. in a few more minutes im pitching s-04.
lookin good so far.

without any carapils, i hope i still get some foam. blonde moment!!
my lhbs doesnt even carry cara-stan, i could have gotten UK crystal but forgot that too! double blonde moment!!

*update: FG finished at .019 giving it a 5.5% abv. good enough, i guess. the rye added a dimension that i am happy with. so much so, id like to do a ruthless rye clone, too!
 
Just a quick "Thank-You" for this recipe. I used the grain bill to make a pale ale featuring Mosaic hops just to see what the hop was like and it turned out so great I have entered it into a couple of contests and have scored 40+ in each, getting 2nd out of 38 APA entries in one of them. Only getting dinged because it was a little too hoppy for the 10A category (oh well!).

Hop Schedule I have been using:

0.75oz Millenium- 60min
1.00oz Mosaic- 15min
1.00oz Mosaic- 5min
1.00oz Mosaic- Flame Out
1.00oz Mosaic- Dry Hop (5 days)
 
How many.gallons of water do you use to mash, sparge and boil? This is one of my favorite beers and i'll be trying this soon. Thanks in advance.
 
I have done this 3 or 4 times. The last , it was much better about 5 to 6 weeks after I Kegged. Not sure why it changes.
 
DIXIEBOY1 said:
How many.gallons of water do you use to mash, sparge and boil? This is one of my favorite beers and i'll be trying this soon. Thanks in advance.
Click to expand...

It really depends on your system/process.

I usually mash with ~5 gallons, batch sparge until preboil is ~7 gallons, boil off to ~5.7 and wind up with ~5.3 gallons into the fermenter.
 
i got the goods to make this again.. which is usually about every 3 to 4 batches. i have modified the recipe slightly so as not to be a perfect clone like you dudes have worked out, but more malty and slightly sweeter. here's what i'm doing tomorrow:
10lbs 4oz great western 2 row
2lbs maris otter
1lb 4oz domestic Munich
1lb german Pilsner
.5lb crystal 40L
.5lb crystal 90L
.5lb carapils
.5lb carastan

Mash @ 154

1.5oz Centennial @ 60
.75oz Centennial @ 30
.75oz Centennial @ 15
whirlfloc
1oz Cascade @ 5
1oz Cascade @ flameout

wlp007 @ 66 for 3 weeks, then keg.

this should be a little nuttier, slightly higher ABV and a little sweeter. depending on how the 007 does.. sometimes i hit 80% with this yeast.

og 1.082
fg 1.021
srm 12.5
ibu 71.3
 
btw, i mixed up my yeast jars and happend to pitch the chimay Trappist strain, raised to 70 after a week, then found an amazing "belgian" strong pale ale. a happy, happy accident.
 
I had Red Chair at the Deschutes taphouse in Portland a couple of years ago and immediately put it on my "need to make this" list. I haven't been brewing much lately but did a 6-gallon batch based upon post #52 with a couple of minor tweaks;

12.0lb US 2-row
1.2lb Munich
1.2lb Pilsner
0.6lb Crystal 40L
0.6lb Crystal 80L
0.6lb Carastan
0.6lb Honey Malt
1.8oz Centennial 10% (60min)
0.9oz Centennial 10% (15 min)
0.9oz Centennial 10% (5 min)
0.4oz Centennial 10% (0 min)
2.0oz Cascade 5.6% (0 min)

Mashed at 150 for 90 minutes

Pitched with 1098 with a large starter. Intended to leave in primary for 21 days, but I got sick so it sat in the primary for 33 days. Ambient temperatures in my garage were in the mid- to high-50's, glass carboy wrapped up in a towel. Added gelatin 3 days before bottling.

OG (predicted @70%) 1.071
OG actual 1.069

FG predicted 1.017
FG actual 1.012

This beer was definitely a home run. The best beer I've ever made. I happened to find myself back in Portland this weekend and stopped by the Deschutes taphouse and the Red Chair is on tap. The menu described the original as 6.2% ABV and 80 IBU. I can't do a side-by-side but I'd say the original has an incredibly similar malt profile, similar aroma, but heavier on the bittering hops. But I actually liked my version better. If I did this again, I wouldn't change a thing. [EDIT: WHEN I do this again (guaranteed), I won't change a thing]
 
What are your thoughts about swapping Northern Brewer for Centennial in the OP? I have the cascade.....
 
Bob had the Deschutes beer in Texas, and he loved it.

He asked me to clone it, so I'll try. The caveat is that I don't have any carastan, carapils, or commercial cascade or centennial hops (only homegrown).

So I'm making this beer, but changing it due to what I have on hand. I'll follow the recipe as close as I can, but it won't be all that close due to my supplies. But thank you for such an excellent starting point! I think it looks awesome.
 

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