How much coco and coffee to add for good stout?

Got a reg. Irish Dry stout kit coming. Not sure of how much coco to add and plan on adding maybe 3/4 pound of beans at the end of the boil for steeping. Want it to be pretty evident its in there but not overkill. Thinking 4oz of coco. First time doing one of these any suggestions on amounts and tech. is appreciated. Thanks.
Ben

Why?

A good stout gets it flavors from the grains.

Brew a good stout then experiment a little at a time

Don't add coffee to the boil, you'll regret it. Cold steep 1/2 lb. of espresso ground coffee for a few days, then filter and add to secondary. 4 oz. of cocoa powder is perfect.

niquejim said:

Why?

A good stout gets it flavors from the grains.

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That's exactly what I thought. My answer to the subject question is: None.

I agree with above. I've used coffee and it tasted good..... but it tasted like beer with coffee in it. If the grain bill were right, a little hint of coffee flavor would be there in the first place.

Yes you can brew a good stout without coffee, and yes roasted barley will have a good coffee flavor, but that's why coffee is such a nice addition!
I work at a coffee shop and have access to an espresso machine, so I've brewed a stout with real espresso. That beer took first place in a local stout contest a few weeks ago, so I very much disagree with those of you who doubt that coffee can accentuate stout.
I'm assuming that most people don't access to free espresso like I do, and also that you probably don't want to drop another $20 or so on a beer, so the cold press method that Professor Frink suggested is the way to go. Cold press really only takes about 12-24 hours, so just prepare it the day before. Just take ground coffee, probably a darker roast, and add it to cold water, using 2 tablespoons of coffee per 8 oz of water, let it sit in the fridge for 12-24 hours. I used 16 oz of espresso in my stout and the coffee flavor was very balanced; it accentuated the other ingredients and didn't taste like "beer with coffee in it," so I'd recommend a similar amount. Just strain out the grounds and add the cold press to the wort right after the boil, or add it to the secondary. I added after the boil.
As for chocolate, I guess I always think of Youngs Double Chocolate stout, and would probably only add cocoa powder to a sweet stout, not a dry. But that's just my opinion, it might be great! Good luck!

Edit: In Mosher's Radical Brewing he recommends 4 to 8 oz of cold press coffee in a stout, and since I haven't actually brewed with it myself, I'd have to assume that you should listen to him.

Another option is to add Carafa malt. I'm still experimenting, but made my first AG (A Stout) with 1/2# (I believe) and it has some really nice subtle coffee/dark chocolate flavors. And you don't have to worry about actually working with coffee or chocolate.

niquejim said:

Why?

A good stout gets it flavors from the grains.

Brew a good stout then experiment a little at a time

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Ooooh, I like you!

I just think there is something wrong with adding flavorings to get flavors that you can get naturally from the grains. It just seems like cheating somehow!

idkid said:

Another option is to add Carafa malt. I'm still experimenting, but made my first AG (A Stout) with 1/2# (I believe) and it has some really nice subtle coffee/dark chocolate flavors. And you don't have to worry about actually working with coffee or chocolate.

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Carafa adds color, and accentuates whatever other malts are in the grist. It's not going to give your beer coffee or chocolate flavors. Try using a combination of roasted Barley, Chocolate malt, and/or Black malt.

ChrisKennedy said:

Ooooh, I like you!

I just think there is something wrong with adding flavorings to get flavors that you can get naturally from the grains. It just seems like cheating somehow!

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I have added espresso, which is much better than adding coffee( did that also), but decided to just go with the grains. Check my recipes, there are 2 very good stouts there

I understand the purist approach many seem to have, but there's nothing like making a weird beer with funky ingredients like cocoa powder. I tend to go overboard with everything in my beers; I made an imperial stout with 90% dark malt (chocolate / black patent / roasted barley). It came out freakin AWESOME.

In response to the original question, I say (unless you're going for very subtle, which isn't my style) add as Much as you want, without being timid. I made a stout in January that I've been cellaring for a few months (well I will be in any case) and I used about 1.5 lbs of Ghiradelli cocoa powder. I've heard it's good from a friend who tried some, but I'm waiting for awhile to try it.

foonder said:

I understand the purist approach many seem to have, but there's nothing like making a weird beer with funky ingredients like cocoa powder. I tend to go overboard with everything in my beers; I made an imperial stout with 90% dark malt (chocolate / black patent / roasted barley). It came out freakin AWESOME.

In response to the original question, I say (unless you're going for very subtle, which isn't my style) add as Much as you want, without being timid. I made a stout in January that I've been cellaring for a few months (well I will be in any case) and I used about 1.5 lbs of Ghiradelli cocoa powder. I've heard it's good from a friend who tried some, but I'm waiting for awhile to try it.

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90% dark malt? Your idea of awesome must be different from mine

I did one beer a few years ago where I dumped a pint of Hershey's dark cocoa into the boil and a pot of coffee into the wort after boiling - it turned out really good and did not add too much work. But boy was there a lot of gunk at the bottom of the primary fermenter when I racked it.

niquejim said:

90% dark malt? Your idea of awesome must be different from mine

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Maybe 90% is a little bit of an exaggeration. Maybe 70 - 80%? I'd have to look at my recipe. You & the brew shop guy made me LOL though, he went "6 POUNDS OF BLACK!?" when I gave him my list. Anyway, it produced the darkest beer I've ever tasted. Not just dark, but super rich & thick & smooth, it was like bourbon and roasted chocolatey espresso amazingness. It definitely pushes the envelope, I've had roasty stouts, but this was a 'kick you in the mouth' stout. I loved it. If you tried it you'd see.

Well thanks for everyone's replies. I just bought a jug of the gherandelli's unsweetened coco, will get some coffee an grind up later when it goes to secondary. To answer the question of why? Its SWMBO's favorite, need I say more?

Ben

Nope, you need not.


TL

foonder said:

Maybe 90% is a little bit of an exaggeration. Maybe 70 - 80%? I'd have to look at my recipe. You & the brew shop guy made me LOL though, he went "6 POUNDS OF BLACK!?" when I gave him my list. Anyway, it produced the darkest beer I've ever tasted. Not just dark, but super rich & thick & smooth, it was like bourbon and roasted chocolatey espresso amazingness. It definitely pushes the envelope, I've had roasty stouts, but this was a 'kick you in the mouth' stout. I loved it. If you tried it you'd see.

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Y'know, I believe that. Me and a buddy were brewing a Expedition Stout clone, and were shocked at how much dark malt it called for. Several pounds, all told. But there was another 25 lbs of 2-row, too. It was already deliciously sweet, thick, and roasty...I can only imagine what that grain bill worked out to.

RadicalEd said:

Y'know, I believe that. Me and a buddy were brewing a Expedition Stout clone, and were shocked at how much dark malt it called for. Several pounds, all told. But there was another 25 lbs of 2-row, too. It was already deliciously sweet, thick, and roasty...I can only imagine what that grain bill worked out to.

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I just cracked open one of my earlier mentioned Imperial Vanilla Bean Stouts. It's a little under a year old, and it's aged wonderfully. It has a lot of the same characteristics as DFH's World Wide Stout. Putting a lot of that malt in makes for a really good stouty beer. It doesn't come out tasting roasty, it like....embodies being roasty. It's hard to explain.

I've been experimenting with coffee malt along with some chocolate malt grains. I still have a batch in the fermenter with a combonation of the two so the verdict is still out. I have shied away from Black Patent but I think I will add a couple qzs. of it in my next batch for a little that burnt charcoal taste. I keep adding more and I will soon have a Imperial stout.

I brewed mine yesterday. Wasn't sure of when to put the chocolate in the boil. Guess I forgot to aske that one. Anyway, I boiled for a little over an hour and then added 4.oz as I stirred it in and boiled another 8 min. Did that hoping it would retain its flavor rather than boiling it out. But I'm really unsure as to when is the optimal time for this is. It appeared that it all melted well in the boil. I figured pasterizing it would be enough. Have a screwed it up, or should I just say to hell with and have a homebrew? Also, swmbo now thinks she's not sure if she wants the coffe added. She likes the jave stouts which are a little, well, way too much coffee flavor for my liking. What does a 1/2 pound of expresso cold steeped taste like. Is that like a java stout as she like them? If anyone knows please enlighten me. I was kinda glad she's not sure about the whole coffee thing but then I got to thinking, maybe I'll just do a half pound of coffee? I do want the taste evident jusyt not like one of those Jave stouts. What do you guys think? Thanks, ben