Oak my cider: two options

Hey everyone,

I did a 3 gallon batch of cider last year, I just finished the last bottle yesterday. It was good initially, but after 8-10 months of aging it became incredible. So this year I'm doubling my production and making 6 gallons! This is only my second cider attempt.

I have 6 gallons of unpasteurized local cider, I added some white sugar to boost the SG and have it fermenting at around 60 degrees with Nottingham. I wanted to experiment with oaking the cider this time around, so I bought 3 ounces of medium toast Hungarian cubes.

I've never used oak before, but it seems that most people steep the cubes in liquor (usually bourbon) to sanitize before they add it. Another option is to boil/steam the cubes for a few minutes, then toss them in. Does it really matter which method I choose? I plan on oaking for a while (a few months), and I do have some domestic apple brandy I could soak them in. The brandy is pretty tasty and I think I'd have to use a good amount to cover the cubes, though I bet soaking it in a ziplock bag is probably the best way to minimize the volume. I know it's not really a "waste" of the brandy, but is there any big advantage to soaking them in booze (other than the extra kick It'll add to the cider)?

Thanks!

I'm curious to see what replies you get here. I have some medium toased/charred oak chips that were soaking in white corn whiskey for several months that I'm thinking about using in a gallon of my cider when it's done (going to be a sweet cider). I'm thinking most of the color has been stripped and released into the whiskey, so I'm really looking for more of a faint oak and corn whiskey taste to release into my cider.

I've used oak, even apple and pear wood in many of my brews and meads. I like to soak them in a decent liquor, usually a liquer closer to the flavor I want to achieve. I have a couple of the old flip-top 1qt canning jars that i do the soaking in. IMO the alchohol helps draw out the flavor of the wood I am using better than just a water/steam extraction does.

My oak has always come sealed in bags, I just dumped them right into the cider without any treatment. Works out great, no infection or anything like that. But given the option I would agree that an apple brandy would be ideal.

I would caution against oaking for 'months'. Since cider is such a light beverage, a relatively short time is needed, days to weeks in my experience. Too long on oak results in more bitter and woody flavorings which can quickly overwhelm apple flavor.

Hmm thanks for the input. Are you talking cubes or chips? I guess most of what I've read has to do with oaking strong styles of beer (imperial stout, barleywine, etc.) which are obviously more heavily flavored than cider. But most people say a week or two for the chips and a lot longer (months) for the cubes. I don't want to overdo it, but I also plan on aging it for at least 6 months in the bottle so it'll have some time to mellow out a bit.

After listening to the Brew Strong episode on wood aging, I ended up steaming the oak cubes for a couple minutes to sanitize them. They said soaking in booze wasn't enough.

I added the cubes last weekend, 3 ounces for a 6 gallon batch. I'll taste it in a month and go from there.

Anyone else have experience with oak cubes (not chips) in dry cider?

zachattack said:

I added the cubes last weekend, 3 ounces for a 6 gallon batch. I'll taste it in a month and go from there.

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I've only had experience oaking beer, but 3 oz for a month is a lot of oak, even for cubes. I did 1.5 oz medium toast hungarian oak in 5 gallons for 5 weeks in a rye strong ale and it was on the high end of tolerable oak, even ~6 months later.

I'd recommend tasting a sample every week or so lest you overdo it.

OK, thanks. I've heard so many different opinions on how long to leave it in. If you read through some of the threads (here's a good one https://www.homebrewtalk.com/f13/tips-wood-aging-119445/) you get one guy saying that 1.75 oz for 4 months gave him no oak flavor, another saying after 6 months on oak it "wasn't the featured flavor," etc. Then there are cases like yours that seem to be the opposite. Hmm. I'm going to be out of town for a while, but I'll give it a taste next week. I do plan to age this for close to a year in the bottle.

I think it depends on the type of oak object you are using too: chips will have the fastest effect, followed by oak cubes, staves, then barrels (but even the size of the barrel has a different effect). Also, the amount of toast and previous use will effect the flavor too.

So, the best advice I'd say is your experience will be a bit unique, so test it fairly frequently to dial in the flavor your looking for

I scored a 2.5 gallon oak barrel and oaked a cider that I pressed last fall. I oaked it for about 2-3weeks and then put 2 gallons into glass bottles to mellow. The other half gallon I tasted immediately after oaking and it was borderline too oaky. I mixed the rest with another half gallon of cider and drank it within the week. It was good. The 2 gallons in jugs I let age for another 6 months, which greatly reduced and blended the oakiness. I then mixed that with 1 gallon of regular hard cider and kegged. C'est magnifique! Another experiment from a drunk scientist.

Thanks everyone! I tried a sample last night, after 1 week on the cubes barely any oak flavor. I'll report back when I grab another taste.

KidMoxie said:

I've only had experience oaking beer, but 3 oz for a month is a lot of oak, even for cubes. I did 1.5 oz medium toast hungarian oak in 5 gallons for 5 weeks in a rye strong ale and it was on the high end of tolerable oak, even ~6 months later.

I'd recommend tasting a sample every week or so lest you overdo it.

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To update further... I ended up doing a 4 weeks on the 3 oz of Hungarian oak cubes (6 gallons of cider), then bottled. There was a noticeable oak flavor, but it was by no means overpowering. I don't have much experience tasting oaked cider or wine, and most oaked beer that I've had tends to have a pretty heavy whiskey flavor component as part of the oak. So it's interesting to taste the oak by itself without the bourbon flavor.

I tried one this weekend to see how the carbonation was coming along (~3 weeks in the bottle), and I'm really digging the oak. In addition to the subtle flavor, it added a really nice mouthfeel. I'm excited to see how this one ages out, since my last apple wine/cider tasted so much better after 6 months in the bottle. This one's near 11% abv so I know it's got a ways to go, but it already tasted great.

Another option is to use oak powder in the primary like the wine kits do, toasted oak powder gets stirred in with everything else and eventually sinks to the bottom before you transfer, if its not enough oak taste add more powder to the secondary, or chips or beans or staves. I like the bigger pieces like staves in the secondary, they are always suspended in the wine, easy to remove and save for the barbeque for smoke. Of course you hit it on the head that everyone has an opinion on how long to leave it in oak, there are even some authorities who say most of the flavor is absorbed in a few days and leaving it in contact longer does very little to add to the flavors. For a cider some oak powder at the start and then some staves would give you really good control and you can easily remove the staves.As far as sterilizing your oak first, you ware wasting your flavor, these are already toasted and dried, not much growing on them, we just dump them straight into the carboy. WVMJ

Thanks for the info. I know nothing about wine making, I've never heard of oak powder! Most of what I was basing this on was the "wood aging" podcast linked in this thread: https://www.homebrewtalk.com/f13/tips-wood-aging-119445/

I tend to trust Jamil's experience for my first attempt at any technique/recipe/style

To bad he didnt know about oak powders, it would be very easy to use in oaking a beer also, quick release in the primary fermentor, drops right out with the yeast after the fermentation is done. I can understand the worry about some contamination when making low alcohol beer, but in wine and mead I have never had any problems with contamination from oak adding it in primary or secondary. There are only slightly more opinions on using oak than there are people using oak WVMJ

Well,
I'm not making cider like you guys, I'm making toilet wine. I used SuperSmoother in my first batch it came out pretty good. The second batch I did not use it and it consistantly gave me acid reflux.
Super Smoother has liquid oak extract and glycerin.
You probably won't want to add the glycerin to your cider.

Ok this is on the exact oppisite end of the oak spectrum.
I got one of these in a 5 liter version and used it to age some tequila back in the day for a big party we were having. It tasted fantastic. I mean amazing, smooth sippin.
Don't bother with the 5 liter version you need the 10 liter.
After you age your cider you can age some whiskey. Canadian Club put out a limited production Sherry Cask aged whiskey some years back and it was off the hook. You can get this on the bay for about $130 delivered.

What about using apple wood has anyone tried this for their ciders

Here is a bit of stuff I recently came across, hopefully it helps a bit, let me know if you’d like to know more.

Volatile phenols released by wood in wine.

B-Methyl-y-octalactone – Coconut aroma
Eugenol – Smoky spicy aromas
Vanillin- Take a guess

In barrel-fermented wines there is less vanillin due to the reduction of vanillin by yeasts into vanillin alcohol which is almost odourless. Late barrelling and prematurely eliminating lees will produce white wines with excessive wood character; these techniques should only really be used with red wines.

I’m assuming you could apply this knowledge to cider making, if you are making a delicate light cider then perhaps you should ferment on the oak. If you are making a very strongly flavoured cider than aging on oak after fermentation may marry the flavour better.

I stole this info from:

Ribereau-Gayon, P., 2001. Handbook of Enology Volume 1: The Microbiology of Wine and Vinifications. New York: John Wiley & Sons.

I am not into specific gravity and all that, so forgive my countertop brewing.

I have five gallons that I am going to ferment to about 16-18% or as high as the EC1118 will get it.
Then back sweeten with honey, not much, but just a little. I will let this sit in the big jug to make sure it is done fermenting.
three Gal of these I will add Super smoother(oak extract and glycerin) to and bottle. I'm just gonna put it back in the plastic jugs for a few weeks.
5 liters I will put in a 5 liter oak cask that I aged some tequilla in about 5 years ago. Do you think I should add the glycerin to this(obviously not the oak extract)? I don't think so. I may make this a semi-sweet wine. It might come out tasting like an apple honey bourbon.