Carapils in the mash. Doesn't that defeat the purpose?

Might be confused on this so please correct my error.

Assumption #1: Carapils is useful because it contributes dextrins giving the beer body. It might also contribute some sweetness like any "cara" malt.

Concern: Enzymes in the mash can convert the dextrins in carapils (that we want in our final) during the mash into simple sugars that will be fermented by the yeast. This also applies to other "cara" malts.

It seems like it is somewhat pointless from this viewpoint (if I'm not missing something) to mash "cara" malts. In extract brewing this isn't an issue. In all grain though it seems like we should still be steeping these grains if we want all of their body improving powers.

Thoughts?

carapils dextrins are unfermentable, you mash them to get the dextrins into your kettle.

eastoak said:

carapils dextrins are unfermentable, you mash them to get the dextrins into your kettle.

Click to expand...

I guess I don't understand why the dextrins in carapils can't be converted to sugar by the enzymes in the mash?

DrHop said:

I guess I don't understand why the dextrins in carapils can't be converted to sugar by the enzymes in the mash?

Click to expand...

Well, crystal malts are a special breed of malts. They are "premashed" so to speak, by stewing and then kilning. This actually results in a crystalline sugar structure. The sugars they provide then are available without mashing, via steeping. But of course, they can go right in the mash.

The great thing about crystal malts is they provide body, flavor, and color, along with a bit of fermentable sugars (but not that much). They are great for head retention as a result.

I was recently reading Brewing: Science and Practice, which is an insanely expensive and extensive encyclopedia of advanced brewing techniques. In it, they mentioned that mashing converted grains with uncoverted grains causes a decrease in efficiency. They showed a bunch of experiments which supported their findings, but didn't go into much detail as to explain "why" this was the case. I always believed it did not matter in the past. But I currently divide my mashing grains from my steeping grains, and mash/steep them separately. Not a big deal for me since I use dual kettles anyway.

http://www.amazon.com/dp/0849325471/?tag=skimlinks_replacement-20

Yooper said:

Well, crystal malts are a special breed of malts. They are "premashed" so to speak, by stewing and then kilning. This actually results in a crystalline sugar structure. The sugars they provide then are available without mashing, via steeping. But of course, they can go right in the mash.

The great thing about crystal malts is they provide body, flavor, and color, along with a bit of fermentable sugars (but not that much). They are great for head retention as a result.

Click to expand...

Yeah I guess my understanding was that the "premashed" process that cara grains go through was basically the same as what occurs if you were to mash at a high temperature where the same enzymes convert the starches to dextrins and sugars. Since its at a high temp you get a lot of dextrins like if you mashed at 160F for example. The caramelization process they go through after the conversion takes place as the roasting temp goes up might take some of the sugars and perform some reaction that makes them unfermentable. It seems that the degree of fermentability would depend on the darkness of cara malt.

bobbrews said:

an insanely expensive and extensive encyclopedia of advanced brewing techniques.

Click to expand...

Haha, I love that description.

DrHop said:

Might be confused on this so please correct my error.

Assumption #1: Carapils is useful because it contributes dextrins giving the beer body. It might also contribute some sweetness like any "cara" malt.

Click to expand...

Dextrins are not perceived on the human palette as sweet. They dwell in the nether region between sugars and starches and convey almost no flavor but are large enough molecules to bring a sense of presence which is perceived as body & fullness.

DrHop said:

Concern: Enzymes in the mash can convert the dextrins in carapils (that we want in our final) during the mash into simple sugars that will be fermented by the yeast. This also applies to other "cara" malts.

Click to expand...

Given a long enough time that might happen but it is not a concern assuming the typical 60-90 minute mash period.

DrHop said:

It seems like it is somewhat pointless from this viewpoint (if I'm not missing something) to mash "cara" malts. In extract brewing this isn't an issue. In all grain though it seems like we should still be steeping these grains if we want all of their body improving powers.

Click to expand...

Steeping only exists in the world of extract brewing. In all-grain everybody is in the pool. The reason steeping exists is to allow extract brewers to soak out some flavors and/or colors from grains that do not require mashing. Do not make the mistake of presuming that the techniques you are using as an extract brewer are the basis for all-grain brewing. Please see response for assumption #2. While the enzymes in the mash will work on the long chain sugars and dextrins of cara/crystal malts in the mash, in practical terms the effect for the duration of a normal mash is negligible. The addition of "body-building" dextrin malts to an all-grain mash where the mash schedule will control the main body and finish of the beer while at the same time a controlled amount of dextrin malt will give the beer the texture enhancement the brewer desires is one of the subtle tweaks available to the all-grain brewer but beyond the reach of extract brewing.

DrHop said:

Assumption #1: Carapils is useful because it contributes dextrins giving the beer body.

In all grain though it seems like we should still be steeping these grains if we want all of their body improving powers.

Thoughts?

Click to expand...

Most people believe it's the extra dextrins from mashing higher, or the extra dextrins from cara-malts that give a beer extra body. After listening to Dr. Bamforth talk about about dextrins, I don't believe this to be true. Dr. Bamforth talks about an experiment adding dextrins to a beer where it was found the amount of dextrins you'd have to add to a beer to increase the body was such a large amount, that it has to be something else. I think, and I've heard others say the same, that the body of a beer is coming from the proteins.

Here's a couple quotes from George Fix's Principles of Brewing Science
"for the most part, the protein content of malt is similar to that of the barley from which it was made. There is some continuation of protein breakdown in the mash, but the extent is greatly influenced by the mashing schedule used (Fix and Fix,1997)."
"Some proteins are precipitated during wort chilling (the so-called"cold break") as well as during fermentation and aging, but most are passed unaltered to the finished beer. The middle-molecular-weight proteins tend to make positive contributions to beer foam, as well as increasing the "maltiness" of beer in ways that are still not completely understood."

bobbrews said:

I was recently reading Brewing: Science and Practice, which is an insanely expensive and extensive encyclopedia of advanced brewing techniques. In it, they mentioned that mashing converted grains with uncoverted grains causes a decrease in efficiency. They showed a bunch of experiments which supported their findings, but didn't go into much detail as to explain "why" this was the case. I always believed it did not matter in the past. But I currently divide my mashing grains from my steeping grains, and mash/steep them separately. Not a big deal for me since I use dual kettles anyway.

http://www.amazon.com/dp/0849325471/?tag=skimlinks_replacement-20

Click to expand...

I have that book laying around, never fit it into my busy reading schedule. I never realized it was that pricey! Is it worth the read?

BigEd said:

Given a long enough time that might happen but it is not a concern assuming the typical 60-90 minute mash period.

Click to expand...

I guess I don't see why I can take pale malt and mash it to take starches to dextrins to sugars but when I mash cara malts the dextrins don't get converted to sugars at the same rate. It seems like it should take longer to convert starches to sugars than dextrins to sugars. The only thing I could understand is if the dextrins in cara malts are somehow modified so that they could no longer be broken down to sugars.

BigEd said:

Steeping only exists in the world of extract brewing. In all-grain everybody is in the pool. The reason steeping exists is to allow extract brewers to soak out some flavors and/or colors from grains that do not require mashing. Do not make the mistake of presuming that the techniques you are using as an extract brewer are the basis for all-grain brewing. Please see response for assumption #2. While the enzymes in the mash will work on the long chain sugars and dextrins of cara/crystal malts in the mash, in practical terms the effect for the duration of a normal mash is negligible. The addition of "body-building" dextrin malts to an all-grain mash where the mash schedule will control the main body and finish of the beer while at the same time a controlled amount of dextrin malt will give the beer the texture enhancement the brewer desires is one of the subtle tweaks available to the all-grain brewer but beyond the reach of extract brewing.

Click to expand...

I think steeping could still have a role in all grain brewing. There is no reason everything has to go in the mash. That said I agree with the rest you said in that paragraph.

Buna_Bere said:

Most people believe it's the extra dextrins from mashing higher, or the extra dextrins from cara-malts that give a beer extra body. After listening to Dr. Bamforth talk about about dextrins, I don't believe this to be true. Dr. Bamforth talks about an experiment adding dextrins to a beer where it was found the amount of dextrins you'd have to add to a beer to increase the body was such a large amount, that it has to be something else. I think, and I've heard others say the same, that the body of a beer is coming from the proteins.

Here's a couple quotes from George Fix's Principles of Brewing Science
"for the most part, the protein content of malt is similar to that of the barley from which it was made. There is some continuation of protein breakdown in the mash, but the extent is greatly influenced by the mashing schedule used (Fix and Fix,1997)."
"Some proteins are precipitated during wort chilling (the so-called"cold break") as well as during fermentation and aging, but most are passed unaltered to the finished beer. The middle-molecular-weight proteins tend to make positive contributions to beer foam, as well as increasing the "maltiness" of beer in ways that are still not completely understood."

Click to expand...

I think this is really interesting and makes a lot of sense. Flaked barley and flaked wheat give nice body and head retention through their proteins. I guess when you malt barley, these proteins might be denatured by the barley sprout and crash out in the break material because flaked barley seems to behave much different than something like pale malt. Maybe cara malts contain most of the proteins that flaked barley does but has had some conversion that has taken place so that they don't have to be mashed. If this were the case, darker cara malts wold probably have more protein denaturation and contribute less to body and foam retention.

Do you know where you heard Dr. Bamforth talk about this?

DrHop said:

Do you know where you heard Dr. Bamforth talk about this?

Click to expand...

Here's a link
http://thebrewingnetwork.com/shows/582
go to about 12:45 seconds in and he starts talking about dextrins shortly after.

I think this is part of the answer why dextrines don't break down in the mash.

"Maltodextrin is typically composed of a mixture of chains that vary from three to seventeen glucose units long."

Some of the short chains may be broken down in the mash but the longer ones will not.

RM-MN said:

I think this is part of the answer why dextrines don't break down in the mash.

"Maltodextrin is typically composed of a mixture of chains that vary from three to seventeen glucose units long."

Some of the short chains may be broken down in the mash but the longer ones will not.

Click to expand...

Starch has the same chemical structure but has hundreds of sugar units. Basically a dextrin is a small starch. If starch can be broken down by amylase then dextrin shouldn't stand a chance.

FWIW: http://morebeer.com/articles/usingdextrinmalt

ArcaneXor said:

FWIW: http://morebeer.com/articles/usingdextrinmalt

Click to expand...

Cool thanks. I was trying to read up on what happens during the roasting of these starches that makes then unconvertable by the amylase enzymes. Sorry it took me so long to believe you guys but I had a hard time believing that they'd just all of a sudden become unconverable by enzymes.

Yeah after reading up more it sounds like the final step in making cara malts produces caramelization reactions which change the molecule structure of these dextrins and prevent them from being converted by enzymes. The stewing process basically takes wet malted grains and uses the enzymes inside the grains to convert the starches to sugars and dextrins. In the next step the grains are heated and this is where caramelization takes place.

My guess of why briess says that carapils should be mashed is that the caramelization reactions have not gone very far and there is a mixture of caramelized dextrins and normal dextrins. These normal dextrins should be mashed to convert the to sugars but the caramelized dextrins are unfermentable and can not be converted to sugars by the enzymes. For other darker cara malts most the dextrins are caramelized and mashing isn't needed.

DrHop said:

Cool thanks. I was trying to read up on what happens during the roasting of these starches that makes then unconvertable by the amylase enzymes. Sorry it took me so long to believe you guys but I had a hard time believing that they'd just all of a sudden become unconverable by enzymes.

Click to expand...

doubting thomas