Will these elements work?

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Hey all, it's been a while.

I'm starting to do some beginning research on a 1bbl electric HERMS system made from stainless steel drums, mostly following theelectricbrewery.com and the bluto555. Due to the volumes in play and the tendency of regular ol' elements to corrode and rust, I'm looking into the 304 stainless steel elements on McMaster Carr. It's impossible to link to that site, so the part number I'm looking at is 3656K162. It's a 10.5 kW element in 240v 3 phase.

Can I wire this element the same way I would any of the other 240v elements that others are using? The 3 phase is throwing me a bit cause I'm not very well versed in electricity, and there are 240v 1 phase options just above.

If and when I go ahead and pull the electricity I'll need to my brewing space, will the 240 already be 3 phase or will I have to request this from the electrician?

From what I've read and understand, 3 phase is simply both 'hots' from the 240v service and the neutral. Just hoping to confirm this, or (more likely) be corrected!

Any help or suggestions would be greatly appreciated!

Thanks!
 
Normal residential electric is single phase. 3 phase is more of an industrial sourced power option.
 
SINGLE phase is simply both 'hots' from the 240v service and the neutral. Like samc said it's the normal residential service. I live in a rural area and there is 3-phase in front of my house, but the house service is single phase. To bring in 3-phase would require a bank of 3 transformers on the pole plus a different service drop, main panel and a lot of money!
 
3 phase power is delivered as 3 hots and then depending on the transformer configuration (delta or wye) a neutral. The phase to phase voltage on a wye system is 208V. The phase to phase voltage on a delta system is 240V. The neutral is completly different with these 2 systems as it is developed in a completely different manner with each.

You will not find 3 phase power delivered to a residential area. (Or a least it would be extremely rare.)
 
I looked in Mcmaster Carr, there's no information about the element.

Three phase is 3 "hot" wires, and, depending on the configuration, maybe a neutral, and it's the presence of the neutral that can make you or break you.

I've never seen a 3 phase element before, and never worked on 3 phase here in the US, or else I'd give you a more direct answer.

In a nutshell, 3 phase can be connected in a "triangle" or "star" configuration (that'd be the names as translated from Spanish. I don't know the English names).

In a triangle configuration, each element will be connected between 2 hot wires, no neutral involved. That means you'll have an element with only 3 wires. If that's the case, you can use it by only using 2 of the contacts (one for each 240V hot), and leaving the third contact disconnected (and properly insulated). In that case, you will have a total of about 5250W, instead of the nominal 10500W. That's because 2 of the elements will be working @ 120V, while the 3rd one will be working @ 240V. Or you can short circuit 2 of the contacts, and connect them to one of the hot wires, and connect the free contact to the other hot. That will give you 7000W, as 2 of the elements will be working on 240V, while the 3rd will not work.

In a star configuration, each element will be connected between one of the hot wires and neutral. In that case, you will have 4 contacts in your element.
If that's the case, you can connect the 3 "hot" contacts together to one of the hot wires, and the neutral contact to the other one, and you will have the full 10500W.

And that's about it, as best as I can explain it. Let me know if there's something you don't understand. :)

Edit: P-J explained it while I was typing. Looks like "star" is "wye"and "triangle" is "delta"...
 
Thanks for the explanations and the link! That's exactly what i've been looking for.

those elements are a lot more expensive but they might be worth it in the grand scheme of things.

2 more questions: Anyone have any opinions on using such a freaking expensive element? If it lasts for years and years then it's not such a big deal but if it burns out right away (or even after a year or two) then it's not exactly worth it. The only other option I can think of to make up for the needed wattage is multiple cheap home depot elements, but i don't like the idea of the multiple holes and wiring, not to mention the corrosion and rust from them.

second, the high wattage elements that are useful for my application are 54" long!!! that's way too big for my barrels. does anyone have any experience bending elements? i'm guessing that even if i could bend them in a way that would allow them to fit, the stress on the sheath could become a problem and might lead to them burning out prematurely.

comments and opinions greatly appreciated!!
 
Well, maybe it's just me, but I wouldn't pay that kind of money for a HE if it was made of solid gold.
Now, personally, I never heard about elements getting rust in them. Not only in here, but having been a member of a biodiesel forum for a couple of years. Knew of elements cracking because of the lower thermal conductivity of oil, but that's about it.

About bending the elements, you can do it, if you have a good quality bender. There's always the rick of the heater wire touching the tube, if it has been packed incorrectly, but it's pretty slim.
 
My water heater elements were in my house when I purchased it in 1991 and they are still going. I am not worried that the ones I have in my kettle as being any worse then the standard water heater element. I wouldn't worry too much about it and just go with standard single phase elements.

In all honesty, are you going to use your system 24/7? I don't think its too much work to possibly change an element every 5 years, let alone 20 years. Even if you made a commercial venture out of it, you would probably be either broke or buying a commercial system before you would have to worry about an element failure. Just my .02
 
Is it simply the rust you're worried about with the standard 5500 watt elements? If so, its easy to avoid. Simply make sure you dry them out after each brewing session. In my experience the only time the heating elements rust at the base is if you leave them submerged in water for extended periods of time.
Plus, if you need to replace one, they're cheap!
17 bucks for a brand new 5500 watt heating element at home depot is hard to beat.
 
An anode will cure the rust issue, but you still don't need to have any water in the tank when its not in use. I wouldn't worry too much about them rusting.
 
I think I would just go with the cheaper, standard heater elements considering the huge price difference. Assuming you're going to have some other fittings welded on the vessel, a couple more won't increase your one-time, initial cost that much and the elements are readily available.

As far as longevity of the 3-phase elements goes, I know of a small brewery that used them in their hot liquor tank and I don't think they ever had a problem except for occasional cleaning.
 
I have the same setup you are hoping to put together. You need 2-5500w elements per HLT and BK. At $32 per kettle for Home Depot elements you can afford to change them out every year or two if you are that worried about rust. I do as mentioned above and dry my elements after each brew.
 
My water heater elements were in my house when I purchased it in 1991 and they are still going. I am not worried that the ones I have in my kettle as being any worse then the standard water heater element. I wouldn't worry too much about it and just go with standard single phase elements.

But your water heater does't operate continuously at boiling temps in a 5pH liquid. HLT elements tend to last a long time, but plan to replace boiling kettle elements every year or two, depending on your brewing volume. I have found the Rheem copper elements tend to hold up to wort better than standard ones.
 
Nope and they don't operate continuously at boiling temps in my brew kettle either. They run about 1 hour a week.
 
I use a Hitachi SJ200 VFD to convert single phase 240 to 3 phase 240 to run a 3 phase motor on a milling machine at my house which has no 3 phase. I have no idea if one of these will work for a heating element, but a call to Hitachi will tell you.
 
Home Depot sells some stainless steel elements. At least they did up to a few months ago. My local store had them. Not sure if the base is stainless or not, never did do the magnet trick to check.
 
I use a Hitachi SJ200 VFD to convert single phase 240 to 3 phase 240 to run a 3 phase motor on a milling machine at my house which has no 3 phase. I have no idea if one of these will work for a heating element, but a call to Hitachi will tell you.

They do work, but it makes no sense to buy an element that's more than 10 times as expensive as a normal element, just to keep wasting even more money on a VFD, which, in turn, will make you waste even more money in electricity.
 
But your water heater does't operate continuously at boiling temps in a 5pH liquid. HLT elements tend to last a long time, but plan to replace boiling kettle elements every year or two, depending on your brewing volume. I have found the Rheem copper elements tend to hold up to wort better than standard ones.

Agreed. Like one of these elements?
 
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All the elements I've bought at Home Depot were plated copper, eventually the plating came off and now they just look copper.

Has anybody really had a rusting issue with these?
 
3 phase has 3 hot legs that are 120 degrees out of phase. Which means you get 208v between the hots rather than 240v as in single phase power. Each leg is still 120v from neutral just like residential single phase.

My apartment is powered from 2 legs of 3phase power. Everything is exactly the same as normal home wiring except that the range plug(the only two pole plug) only outputs 208v. That means I loose about 25% of the rated power of my 240v 4700watt element and only get 3606 watts out of it.

True 3phase elements use all three hots in a Delta configuration. The advantage is that the load is spread evenly across the phases. This is important to the power company with large loads as they would have to waste power to balance things out if you didn't and would charge accordingly.

3phase is mostly useful for running big industrial motors. The 3 overlapping legs help maintain continuous torque and are generally more efficient than single phase motors. Also 3phase motors are easy to reverse by swapping two of the legs.
 
Anyone find a way to prevent the base from rusting or find a element that won't rust? I am now having the same problem
 
The anode solution seems to be the most solid fix for the element rusting issues for a couple people, including me. I installed a Camco magnesium RV anode into my HLT and so far I've had zero rust issues.

Obviously that's the way it should be since that setup is exactly what they do in actual water heaters to prevent rust issues with the elements. If you are interested check out my build thread.

Other solutions I've heard work include painting the element base with POR15 or applying food grade silicone to the base of the element.

Matt
 
My problem is that I am having this problem with my element in a RIMS tube, I have no where to mount a Anode.

I've hear of the POR15 but all the threads I have read said it didn't work. If you of it actually working I would like to hear about that.
 
Well that there is a whole different animal. I have heard people talk about, but never actually confirm that an aluminum lock nut (instead of a stainless steel one) also works. Aluminum isn't as reactive a metal as magnesium, but it is used for water heater anodes as well.

Having never built a RIMS tube before I don't even know if you attach the element on the inside with a locknut or whether you thread it right into the pipe so my second suggestion could also be worthless to you!

Food grade silicon could be something you could try in your situation. I've heard mixed reviews on it. Some people say it works great, but others have complained it doesn't stay on very well on the base of the element.
 
natty,

On my RIMS tube and I would imagine on most, the element is threaded onto a fixture that is already threaded. It's not like you insert the element through a hole and then apply a lock nut. There has to be a solution for this as people have been using elements for RIMS tubes for some time now.
 
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